Insomnia, but not lack of sleep, may hasten brain shrinkage: study

[orbifold]

> “Although the study found inadequate sleep duration was not an issue in brain atrophy in this study, we cannot say there is no association,” she said, noting that a previous CARDIA study showed that shorter sleep was associated with worse white matter integrity, indicating lower cognitive functioning.

That quote seems to directly contradict the headline.

[macrael]

From the public results only[1] (I don't have a copy of the whole study) they studied the following things looking for correlation with brain decline:

* short sleep duration

* sleep quality

* difficulty initiating sleep (DIS)

* difficulty maintaining sleep (DMS)

* early morning awakening (EMA)

* daytime sleepiness

They only found that the middle four were correlated. I don't know what exactly "sleep quality" is but the others are pretty easy to understand. And the point is that the duration of a person's sleep is not what mattered, it was the quality.

[1]: https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/WNL.0000000000209988

[threatofrain]

The subtitle is UCSF-led study finds that insomnia, but not lack of sleep, may hasten brain shrinkage.

[m3kw9]

I like how scientists use words like less and more as if we know what reference points they are thinking

[askafriend]

The science publication complex is incredibly problematic.

[eagleinparadise]

I'm approaching midlife and noticing the quality of my sleep has declined. I can't sleep in anymore. Sometimes I'm waking up in the middle of the night occasionally and something I'm wide awake because I'm thinking about work or something like that. Very frustrating.

Another reminder to try to pull myself away from the screens late at night.

[prettyStandard]

I've also found it's hard to sleep in, I recommend going to sleep sooner. It's like I'm hardwired to wake up at a certain time, the only thing I can control is when I go to bed.

[schaefer]

what works for me in this case is to pop in a single ear bud and turn on an audio book I've already listened to.

because there is a narrative, it shuts down rumination. because there's nothing novel, my brain is quite happy to drift off to escape the tedium.

[moffkalast]

Have you tried afternoon naps to compensate? I remember reading this theory a while back that we sort of naturally switch to a different sleeping cycle over the course of our lives, where older people tend to stay awake at night and sleep during the day as a sort of evolved way to split shifts for camp defence during the tribal era. No idea if there's any solid data to back it up though.

[crossroadsguy]

Not there yet (or maybe I am, going by my country's average male lifespan), but after years of wondering what the fuck sometimes happens I finally realised what mostly causes sleep issues for me:

- not getting rid of screens at least 30 mins before I hit the bed (60 is ideal)

- not getting tired/exercise enough during the day

- sleeping in the afternoon and anytime during the day more than 40-50 mins

- having coffee after 4-5pm

- having dinner after 8-830pm (though this is minor and I am not really sure it affects much)

- and this is the biggest culprit of all (or maybe second worst - next to screen time): even though it's past my sleep time (1030pm) not actually just getting down on the bed and close my eyes and just try to relax even though it seems maybe I am not sleepy. This also applies if I wake up before my wake up time and I do not force myself to go back to sleep that is at least "kinda" pretend i.e just lie down closing my eyes.

What helps:

- reading myself to sleep (paper books are what I read, so not sure about e-readers)

- hot chocolate (half glass) after dinner but 10-15 mins before hitting the bed

- allergy medication (when it becomes unbearable for me) :D (no it's rare for me to take that and I don't take without asking my doctor)

- listening to rain/thunder sound on my phone from a distance

- if there are things pending or things bothering in my head → then heading to my ToDo list "TCOT" (abbr. for take care of this) in Reminders.app and log/dump it there before hitting the bed → I have noticed that those things usually do not bother me at night then (but I don't have much personal/anecdotal data on this either)

[graeme]

Two low impact things to try are:

* A very small amount of melatonin. .300 to .500 mg.

* Breathe right strips, these increase airflow

Other health issues can also cause wakefulness.

[eastbound]

I thought work stress kept me awake at night, but it was sleep apnea. I had a device that propels the lower jaw forward, to clear the throat, it stopped apnea but moved my teeth, but I then was brave enough to lose ~5kg (sleeping more makes you brave), and now I don’t need the jaw device.

[jasonfarnon]

I noticed that too, but assumed it is a natural part of the body being in stasis and no longer growing/developing. I definitely remember being most tired during teenage years and other phases when the body was changing. You and others seem to imply that it has to be with increased stress, and maybe so, but I would like to see data on other cultures. Does someone who has been farming since age 17 have the same sleep patterns in middle age?

[deafpolygon]

My issue is I seem somehow wired to wake up early. I sleep better when I go to bed earlier. Screen use seems to have nearly no impact on my sleep, and what has the most impact is the type of screen usage (i.e. reading news, books & watching film is fine, but instagram/tiktok before bed tends to lead to worse sleep for me).

[ajma]

I started exercising (a lot) in the year and found that has helped me fall asleep faster. It doesn't have to be a whole lot either. 30 minutes of jogging or fast walking is enough to do it for me. I definitely feel it on days where I sit and do nothing. I have a harder time falling asleep.

[pedalpete]

There is a natural reduction in sleep quality as we age. This is related to the decline of health in aging.

[timack]

Moving my phone from beside my bed to across the room dramatically improved my sleep quality.

[konfusinomicon]

ahh the old 3am ruminating toss and turn never fails to put me back asleep a half hour before my alarm goes off and mostly never closer to solving the problem at hand

[The28thDuck]

Sorry to hear that! I hope your sleep quality improves. :)

[ddyevf635372]

Taking a magnesium vitamin pill before sleep helps a lot. Try it out.

[neofrommatrix]

I sometimes wonder what damage 20 years of undiagnosed sleep apnea has caused. My sleep report showed 50 incidents of breathing issue per hour on average. I finally got a CPAP and it has literally made a world of difference to my life. Now I hear my toddler snore and hope that he doesn’t have it. At least, I can intervene early.

[eastbound]

When I am 86kg, I have quite heavy sleep apnea. When I am 83kg, I don’t. Everyone has different possible actions, because for some it is due to the shape of the nose cartilage, for others it’s the throat, but discovering that made a world of difference.

I wake up in the morning and I’m awake. And courageous. It’s incredible.

[aziaziazi]

How’s the noise? Do you have a partner? I do day and night apnea and love to try a CPAP but my partner needs a quiet room to sleep.

What features/specificities should one consider to choose a model? Can I buy second hands, does some parts wear off?

Maybe should get one for when she don’t sleep at home, I’d love to feel rested at morning sometimes.

[SaintGhurka]

Same here. My CPAP changed my life literally on the first night. I woke up feeling 20 years younger.

[debo_]

You know what the best way to stop sleeping well is? Read about all the things that poor sleep does to you. Especially when the quality of the research is as shaky as this link.

[criddell]

Matthew Walker, author of Wy We Sleep agrees with you. He has a page where he addresses some common reader concerns and criticisms and anxiety around quantity and quality of sleep is something he acknowledges:

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...

In that same post he addresses some of Alexey Guzey's oft repeated criticism of his work.

[bamboozled]

This

[pedalpete]

We work in the sleep space, and this isn't new.

I was at a conference last week, and for the first time heard about a study that suggested that the cycle is that a build up of amyloid, tau, lew bodies, and other metabolic waste in the brain reduces the slow-wave power which is responsible for clearing out this metabolic waste (via the glymphatic system).

This cycle is still not proven, but it was an interesting early hypothosis.

We've been developing slow-wave enhancement technology for the last 4 years which increases slow-wave activity, and the first 3 studies in Alzheimer's and MCI are now published. These are early studies with lots left to go.

Studies https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10758173/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37593850/ https://www.proquest.com/intermediateredirectforezproxy

You can find out more about us at https://affectablesleep.com

We're raising an Angel round, and I'll be travelling through the US from Mid-Nov to early Dec. pete[a] domain if you want to learn more.

[sarah_eu]

> We work in the sleep space

Is this another way of saying you work from bed?

[Apocryphon]

My only hope is that now that we seemingly have a cure for obesity, as the population greys the next common non-cancer/heart disease ailment to tackle are brain issues that set in during old age. Maybe they'll have a pill that gets rid of all of the plaque or proteins or prions or whatever that sleep is for.

[bottom999mottob]

This study is just awful. Can we stop funding epidemiological studies with little to no reproducibility? At least use more frequent objective sleep measurements, and account for confounding variables.

- They openly acknowledge they "can't say that poor sleep causes dementia" aka they established a correlation but no direction of causality

- There's self-reporting bias where participants were "asked about" their sleep patterns

- There's selection and survival bias: the participants were around 40 y/o, the ones that remained for 10 years might be different than those who dropped

- The sample was for a cardiovascular disease study

- They didn't control for unmeasured confounders other than "age, sex, education, health and lifestyle factors"

- The 1.6-2.6 years of brain aging were measured using ML algorithms and this is a small enough effect to be within a margin of error...

[zmmmmm]

There must be a nuanced distinction b/w short sleep duration and the other sleep quality metrics since nearly all of them likely cause short sleep duration as a side effect. I wonder how the researchers disentangled this.

[scandox]

What is the term for cursed knowledge that may also be untrue?

[MrLeap]

Fearmongering? Misinformation? Something with a vector around there probably.

[extr]

I’ll let my baby know that when he wakes up in the middle of the night it’s impacting my brain.

[ChrisArchitect]

Related:

Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151

[ChrisArchitect]

Related:

How to Train Yourself to Go to Sleep Earlier

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42016904

[m3kw9]

Insomnia bad and the discovery of how sleep flushes toxins seem to jive

[mjfl]

I'm so screwed...

[kingkawn]

Awww sheeiiiiittttt