With all the anger over illegal immigrants taking US jobs, as a European it surprises me that nobody in the US seems to even mention the idea of punishing the employer for employing illegal workers.
If I want to hire someone (local or remote) as an employer here, I better make sure the worker has a valid working permit. Fines for non-compliance towards the employer are huge, even for a single day of work. All paperwork has to be complete before any work is done. Even when hiring through intermediary companies who guarantee it's all legal, liability and fines remain in place for the ultimate employer if it turns out to be not so.
In the US, there is no reliable way to verify employment eligibility. What systems do exist tend to produce many false positives and false negatives. Furthermore, you are required to accept documents the demonstrate employment eligibility at face value, even if they are likely to be fraudulent.
In industries that famously have many illegal employees, the companies have cover because the employees always have fraudulent documents. And since the company is required to accept those documents and not discriminate, the company can't be held liable for hiring them even though they are illegal.
Underlying this situation is that it is unconstitutional for the Federal government to issue mandatory ids to citizens that could be used to reliably determine employment eligibility.
The people who complain about illegal immigrant labor in the US also like their cheap chicken and other fruits from illegal immigrant labor.
It's a weird case where one business undercuts another by hiring cheap labor, and then the other business has to do the same thing or else risk going out of business.
Better enforcement might help, but remember, people like cheap chicken; it doesn't matter which way you vote.
> it surprises me that nobody in the US seems to even mention the idea of punishing the employer for employing illegal workers.
The anti-immigrant politicians can't punish the employers because they would be punishing their own donors.
If that sounds like a contradiction, consider that undocumented/illegal immigrants are effectively pawns who have no political power in the system, and the contradiction disappears entirely.
> it surprises me that nobody in the US seems to even mention the idea of punishing the employer for employing illegal workers
This has been my proposed solution to the immigration problem in the US. Stop attempting to corral the people coming over, and shift 100% of your resources toward punishing those who employ them. How many people will attempt to sneak into the US when no one is willing to hire them?
I also view this as a "put your money where your mouth is" stance. It changes it from a political issue into one with a practical solution, and the people benefiting from cheap labor would have to be very creative to find fault with it.
> punishing the employer for employing an illegal worker
It's already the law.
This is why employers mandate I-9 forms as part of employment.
This is part of the larger indictment against Christine Chapman by the DoJ, who found she was falsifying employment verification documents and giving access to North Koreans in return for a portion of the embezzled sums.
Stories like this are also why there has been a major push for RTO.
Legislation is frequently proposed to do just this: require all employers to use E-Verify to ensure they don't hire illegal workers. The same people who are constantly firing up voters about immigration are opposed to this. The political issue is valuable to them, as is cheap, cowed, disposable labor. And they know if they succeeded in shipping their workers back over the border there would be economic and political mayhem.
I expect endless demagoguery about immigration and performative cruelty, but nothing that will challenge the bottom line.
Most of the illegal immigrant hoopla has been performative bullshit to make to easier to control employees. If you’re in the chicken processing business or need casual labor, it’s a hell of alot cheaper to avoid paying for social security, worker’s compensation, etc by hiring people whom you can easily exploit by dangling the sword of ICE over their heads.
The US governance model segments immigration and work regulation - the former is a federal matter, the latter is almost exclusively regulated by the states (including enforced of federal rules).
In recent years as conservatives have veered into a more overtly racist and reactionary movement that’s shifted a bit.
> “The charges in this case should be a wakeup call for American companies and government agencies that employ remote IT workers,” Nicole Argentieri, head of the Justice Department's Criminal Division, said.
I really hope this doesn’t become ammunition for companies who force unjust and unnecessary return to office policies.
A simple IT guy has access to company's finances in such way to move millions. Am I the only one who smells either ridiculous incompetence or plain fraud by the company trying to cover up "something"?
Articles say the guy was an AI developer. But how did he actually steal money from Fisker?
He installed malware on his work computer. Was this then used by North Korea to hack Fisker's internal systems and syphon of money somehow? Maybe I missed the details in one of the articles linked below.
- "But how did he actually steal money from Fisker?"
AFAICT, he merely worked for them. The only cash flows mentioned in the indictment [0] are simple wages.
The title is a bit misleading. "Millions" is the total haul of the North Korean remote workers over some 60-ish (??) companies. Fisker by itself paid no more than $214,596.00 (page 27, as "Company 6"). The article focuses on Fisker because it's an automotive news site.
If there is an argument for RTO, it would be this.
Stu Sjouwerman: We were hiring a fairly specific, hard-to-find software engineer who had background in AI. We have a number of AI initiatives, and so we needed a software engineer to support all those initiatives.
Jessica Mendoza: The job was posted on online job forums, and pretty soon, resumes started to flow in from all over the country, and one candidate stood out. He said his name was Kyle.
Stu Sjouwerman: "Mr. Kyle" quote, unquote, air quotes, had experience with exactly everything that we needed. It was a very good interview. He was very open. He talked about his strengths and weaknesses, indicated where he felt he needed additional training and indicated a career path. And so, was the perfect interviewee, which made us move to the next step.
Jessica Mendoza: After conducting background checks, Stu's company decided to hire Kyle as a remote employee. They sent him a work laptop to an address in Washington State and started the onboarding process. But almost immediately, it became clear that Kyle was not who he said he was.
Stu Sjouwerman: At that point in time, our team started seeing very concerning traffic on that laptop.
Jessica Mendoza: What kind of concerning traffic?
Stu Sjouwerman: Well, Kyle immediately started downloading malware. We immediately saw that a whole bunch of things were happening that should not be. We tried to get in touch with him and asked if he needed any help. I think this was through Slack, and he said, "Yes, I am trying to debug my router and I'm following instructions from a list." And this is where it became very, very iffy, very fast.
Jessica Mendoza: The company shut down Kyle's laptop and quickly fired him. And then, they investigated. What exactly was Kyle doing? The answer took them completely by surprise.
Stu Sjouwerman: Yes, we have egg on our face because we hired a fake North Korean IT worker, but this is what happened. And if it can happen to us, it can happen to almost anybody.
Jessica Mendoza: It's kind of unbelievable that you hired a North Korean spy as one of your IT guys.
Stu Sjouwerman: Yes. That is pretty scary. And there are hundreds if not thousands that are actually, as we speak right now, in this same situation and delivering work for United States companies.
Did they not meet him face-to-face? It’s a small price to pay for confirmation that you’re talking to a real person. Even if not, you at least have someone’s face and information to report to the authorities.
I’m sure all the money the US government put into Fisker was already gone by then. A decade later and even more reminders of what a terrible “investment” that was.
A relative worked at Fisker recently. The loan you are talking about was in 2009. That version of Fisker went out of business in 2014.
The most "recent iteration" of Fisker was basically a company from scratch. It was only called Fisker because it's original founder (Henrik Fisker) retained the rights to the name and logo.
This time around there weren't any loans from the US govt.
lol. exactly the same as happened with off shoring in the late 90s. do people not learn?
first they hire telemarketing grunts. then HR gets complacent and normalize not doing any work. then they start using the same techniques for IT workers since for HR they're just more expensive telemarketing.
[+] [-] Maarten88|1 year ago|reply
If I want to hire someone (local or remote) as an employer here, I better make sure the worker has a valid working permit. Fines for non-compliance towards the employer are huge, even for a single day of work. All paperwork has to be complete before any work is done. Even when hiring through intermediary companies who guarantee it's all legal, liability and fines remain in place for the ultimate employer if it turns out to be not so.
[+] [-] jandrewrogers|1 year ago|reply
In industries that famously have many illegal employees, the companies have cover because the employees always have fraudulent documents. And since the company is required to accept those documents and not discriminate, the company can't be held liable for hiring them even though they are illegal.
Underlying this situation is that it is unconstitutional for the Federal government to issue mandatory ids to citizens that could be used to reliably determine employment eligibility.
[+] [-] gwbas1c|1 year ago|reply
It's a weird case where one business undercuts another by hiring cheap labor, and then the other business has to do the same thing or else risk going out of business.
Better enforcement might help, but remember, people like cheap chicken; it doesn't matter which way you vote.
[+] [-] danans|1 year ago|reply
The anti-immigrant politicians can't punish the employers because they would be punishing their own donors.
If that sounds like a contradiction, consider that undocumented/illegal immigrants are effectively pawns who have no political power in the system, and the contradiction disappears entirely.
[+] [-] MetaWhirledPeas|1 year ago|reply
This has been my proposed solution to the immigration problem in the US. Stop attempting to corral the people coming over, and shift 100% of your resources toward punishing those who employ them. How many people will attempt to sneak into the US when no one is willing to hire them?
I also view this as a "put your money where your mouth is" stance. It changes it from a political issue into one with a practical solution, and the people benefiting from cheap labor would have to be very creative to find fault with it.
[+] [-] alephnerd|1 year ago|reply
It's already the law.
This is why employers mandate I-9 forms as part of employment.
This is part of the larger indictment against Christine Chapman by the DoJ, who found she was falsifying employment verification documents and giving access to North Koreans in return for a portion of the embezzled sums.
Stories like this are also why there has been a major push for RTO.
[+] [-] DFHippie|1 year ago|reply
I expect endless demagoguery about immigration and performative cruelty, but nothing that will challenge the bottom line.
Here's a recent bit of commentary on E-Verify: https://jabberwocking.com/the-long-sad-story-of-e-verify/
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] BadHumans|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pumanoir|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] anon115|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Spooky23|1 year ago|reply
The US governance model segments immigration and work regulation - the former is a federal matter, the latter is almost exclusively regulated by the states (including enforced of federal rules).
In recent years as conservatives have veered into a more overtly racist and reactionary movement that’s shifted a bit.
[+] [-] perihelions|1 year ago|reply
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/media/1352191/dl (pdf)
Some related coverage:
https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/05/arizona-woman-accus... ("Arizona woman accused of helping North Koreans get remote IT jobs at 300 companies")
[+] [-] blackeyeblitzar|1 year ago|reply
I really hope this doesn’t become ammunition for companies who force unjust and unnecessary return to office policies.
[+] [-] ceejayoz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] oleg_antonyan|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] axus|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] simple10|1 year ago|reply
He installed malware on his work computer. Was this then used by North Korea to hack Fisker's internal systems and syphon of money somehow? Maybe I missed the details in one of the articles linked below.
[+] [-] perihelions|1 year ago|reply
AFAICT, he merely worked for them. The only cash flows mentioned in the indictment [0] are simple wages.
The title is a bit misleading. "Millions" is the total haul of the North Korean remote workers over some 60-ish (??) companies. Fisker by itself paid no more than $214,596.00 (page 27, as "Company 6"). The article focuses on Fisker because it's an automotive news site.
[0] https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/media/1352191/dl (pdf)
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ijustwanttovote|1 year ago|reply
Stu Sjouwerman: We were hiring a fairly specific, hard-to-find software engineer who had background in AI. We have a number of AI initiatives, and so we needed a software engineer to support all those initiatives.
Jessica Mendoza: The job was posted on online job forums, and pretty soon, resumes started to flow in from all over the country, and one candidate stood out. He said his name was Kyle.
Stu Sjouwerman: "Mr. Kyle" quote, unquote, air quotes, had experience with exactly everything that we needed. It was a very good interview. He was very open. He talked about his strengths and weaknesses, indicated where he felt he needed additional training and indicated a career path. And so, was the perfect interviewee, which made us move to the next step.
Jessica Mendoza: After conducting background checks, Stu's company decided to hire Kyle as a remote employee. They sent him a work laptop to an address in Washington State and started the onboarding process. But almost immediately, it became clear that Kyle was not who he said he was.
Stu Sjouwerman: At that point in time, our team started seeing very concerning traffic on that laptop.
Jessica Mendoza: What kind of concerning traffic?
Stu Sjouwerman: Well, Kyle immediately started downloading malware. We immediately saw that a whole bunch of things were happening that should not be. We tried to get in touch with him and asked if he needed any help. I think this was through Slack, and he said, "Yes, I am trying to debug my router and I'm following instructions from a list." And this is where it became very, very iffy, very fast.
Jessica Mendoza: The company shut down Kyle's laptop and quickly fired him. And then, they investigated. What exactly was Kyle doing? The answer took them completely by surprise.
Stu Sjouwerman: Yes, we have egg on our face because we hired a fake North Korean IT worker, but this is what happened. And if it can happen to us, it can happen to almost anybody.
Jessica Mendoza: It's kind of unbelievable that you hired a North Korean spy as one of your IT guys.
Stu Sjouwerman: Yes. That is pretty scary. And there are hundreds if not thousands that are actually, as we speak right now, in this same situation and delivering work for United States companies.
https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/your-new-hire-may-b...
[+] [-] jimbob45|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jonhohle|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] starik36|1 year ago|reply
The most "recent iteration" of Fisker was basically a company from scratch. It was only called Fisker because it's original founder (Henrik Fisker) retained the rights to the name and logo.
This time around there weren't any loans from the US govt.
[+] [-] azinman2|1 year ago|reply
It's so far worked out for Tesla, and at least of the major auto companies in the US they're still alive when they could have gone under previously.
Supporting new private industry is good policy, if done with balance. China has been employing this very successfully industry after industry.
[+] [-] karpatic|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bearjaws|1 year ago|reply
Hiring in IT is a joke, there is an obsession with gamifying everything resulting in only people willing to play the game actually getting hired.
[+] [-] xanthor|1 year ago|reply
I wonder what the quality of work was like
[+] [-] 1oooqooq|1 year ago|reply
first they hire telemarketing grunts. then HR gets complacent and normalize not doing any work. then they start using the same techniques for IT workers since for HR they're just more expensive telemarketing.