Ask HN: How would you launch a privacy-first, Instagram-like social network?
55 points| thunderstruck | 1 year ago
I'm planning to launch a privacy-first social network in 2025, inspired by platforms like Instagram. Success for this platform means reaching a sustainable level of recurring revenue, without relying on an ad network.
One challenge I'm anticipating is attracting celebrities and influencers who are already established on Instagram and TikTok. How could I persuade them to use this platform as well? For those with experience or insights, how would you approach building and promoting such a network to reach this revenue goal?
Thanks for any advice or ideas!
next_xibalba|1 year ago
I think this proposal points at an interesting issue that I see crop up often on sites like HN. It goes (I think) like this: 1) "I care deeply about what I perceive to be a problem." 2) Extrapolates onto some large critical mass of people, 3) That critical mass of people does not actually agree with the problem statement in any way, 4) Build a solution, never gets meaningful traction, misdiagnoses the root cause of the failure.
I'm not saying this to dump on this idea. Rather, I think it is a meaningful bias that all humans are vulnerable too. But I do think that filter bubbles amplify whatever this bias is to a powerful degree. If you are surrounded by people who are obsessed with privacy, it seems like everyone is inflamed by the economic model of social networks. But, outside the small filter bubble, most other people don't care at all or actually think its a great model.
Having said all of that, maybe a way to test whether you are experiencing this bias is to interview or collect information from as close to a random sample of social media users as possible. The more random the better. If you find yourself talking to people in SF/Seattle or people in the tech industry, that's a sure sign you have a bad sample. When you talk to them, don't ask leading questions that will bias them. Try to understand what their unbiased views on the problems (if any) are with social networks. Maybe you ask them what their best friend thinks so as to try to sidestep preference falsification. If you discover a consistent problem, maybe you're onto something. But then, you're still up against a world saturated with social networks, and convincing people to pay for something they get for free will be very, very hard. I think, ultimately, the only way you'll discover whether the problems you may have found are really important or not is if you can convince anyone to pay you. I suspect it will be a Sisyphean endeavor.
[1] https://paulgraham.com/startupideas.html
bryanrasmussen|1 year ago
It seems to me that, by definition, it is the quality they care least about as they already do not have it anywhere else in their life. And you want them to be attracting more users by being "the celebrity" which is a person without privacy.
frunkopop|1 year ago
yawnxyz|1 year ago
Not a dig on PG or Tiktok. It's just such an outlier I don't really understand it, and to me it breaks the framework.
codingdave|1 year ago
That isn't being snarky, it is the question you need to answer. Why would people join it? What problem are you solving for them? Why are celebrities and influencers on those platforms to begin with?
When you can detail out those answers, those answers tell you what you need to do to launch. You have to match the table stakes of existing platforms, which means you need to know not only what those are, but why they are important to the userbase.
I suspect you'll find that your drive for privacy-first is going to be well-received in theory, but not a match for why people join such platforms. But you'll need to do the research to figure out such things.
telgareith|1 year ago
The reality is- real users won't pay for these services and the only entities that will pay.
Well, they're paying for ads with the knockoffs because (ironically) instagram et. al. won't run their ads because they're "bad for users."
thunderstruck|1 year ago
The reason I’d build this platform is to help people connect without the distractions of sponsored content or random memes. I stopped using Facebook about seven years ago because I wanted a space where I could simply engage with the people in my network and their thoughts. AdBlock helped for a while, but eventually, my feed filled with random posts from pages I hadn’t followed. I understand that Facebook’s goal is to keep users engaged, but the constant noise led me to switch to Instagram. Unfortunately, Instagram went down a similar path, especially with the rise of Reels.
Now, I mainly use WhatsApp groups to stay connected.
Why are celebrities and influencers on those platforms to begin with?
I considered a model where users could pay to access celebrity posts. It sounds similar to OnlyFans, but I see it as a potential revenue stream or, alternatively, a way to support a fixed monthly fee in exchange for privacy.
exe34|1 year ago
he already told you, revenue goals.
matt_s|1 year ago
Your motivation is purely revenue. What would the user's motivation be to add yet another thing they have to keep up to date on? What can any users you do get use to convince their circle of humans to also join?
Without massive user counts or revenue share with celebs or influencers what incentive would they have to join?
How are you going to pay for bandwidth and storage of videos/images with no revenue? Like do you have a nest egg/run rate saved to fund this social network for a year or two?
idkwhattocallme|1 year ago
mglikesbikes|1 year ago
morkalork|1 year ago
23B1|1 year ago
1) with people who aren't on icloud/iOS?
2) publishing-wise? Like are they getting 'feeds' in their imessage apps or...?
ensignavenger|1 year ago
r721|1 year ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixelfed
AlienRobot|1 year ago
As far as I'm aware, federation tends to be opposite to privacy because there can't be centralized control of access. e.g. none of the federated social media support private profiles but Instagram does, so Instagram is actually more private than most of these.
browningstreet|1 year ago
the_snooze|1 year ago
wycy|1 year ago
wlesieutre|1 year ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ello_(social_network)
erremerre|1 year ago
What I don't see often, and I think it was a neat idea is a copy of Path. A social network for a very very small set of people to share their things. I think path was like 2 members.
I imagine that just a whatsapp/telegram conversation chat is more than enough for this case tho.
JohnFen|1 year ago
If I were attempting this, I'd design and aim the network for a niche audience of some sort and once that's established, begin expanding to wider audiences.
a1o|1 year ago
atestu|1 year ago
al_borland|1 year ago
madamelic|1 year ago
I tried and tried to sell stuff to "privacy freaks". Turns out that type doesn't like paying for closed-source services and generally will turn their nose up to subscriptions. I am one of these "privacy freaks", love them, but they are honestly probably the hardest people to sell to.
I stopped trying to market to them. It is also a nightmare to try to reach that audience too because they almost always have ad blockers and any space they hang out in very quickly sniff out ads or outright ban talking about products they created.
Furthermore, privacy people tend to be technical themselves so they would prefer to build a solution specific to them rather than use someone else's solution unless it is difficult or requires specialized knowledge they don't care to acquire.
ghjfrdghibt|1 year ago
I think you'll have a hard time convincing most users to pay for something they can get for "free" elsewhere.
whalesalad|1 year ago
nicce|1 year ago
I would rather like to see the solving the problem of not attracting any celebrities or influencers , or companies and just getting normal people for social connections, like Facebook was originally. This is the hard problem.
Money and fame usually destroys the platform in the end, as it aims for endless competition and rule breaking.
thunderstruck|1 year ago
tylervigen|1 year ago
Users are the content on social networks. If you charge them to join, you will have fewer users and less content on the network. That reduces the value so you can't charge as much, and the cycle continues.
ToucanLoucan|1 year ago
I don't think you're entirely wrong, mind you, ad supported services are the default and any competing service that requires payment operates at a disadvantage, which is why I continuously come back to the idea that surveillance capitalism needs to be regulated. On a recent episode of Better Offline, the host interviewed an economist who has suggested a steep tax on digital ad spend, specifically to open the space to alternatives away from people giving away their privacy. I think that's a great idea, not as extreme as my ideal solution which would be the utter dismantling of surveillance capitalism entirely, but still.
The problem is money is literally the power here, as it is in most places, and the users are contributing none, and the advertisers are contributing all, and this is basically the source of every cancerous, inhumane and exploitative problem you can think of in social media. And you are 100% correct: a paid instagram will never succeed as long as instagram remains free. Then, IMO, the logical next step is we need to make it not free, or at the very least, take up some of that profit and put it towards other ends that we can actually affect change on.
"The market" is clearly incapable of solving social media, it only has made it worse, ever, ever worse. We need something else.
thastings|1 year ago
Even though you are against all forms of advertising, some really privacy oriented form of it may be acceptable by your intended users. Some thoughts:
- Users need to disclose some topics/subtopics (either broad or even very niche interests)
- The ads need to be conformant to some predefined, non-intrusive style guide: maybe black-and-white or a limited color palette and font selection. This could lead to interesting and even creative ads on the platform
- Advertisers could get anonymized click-counts for their specific categories, and maybe some other category-based info, but user data would be immediately aggregated and not used for specific targeting
- Base users would see 1/3 ads in their feeds, but some payments could reduce this to 1/5, 1/8, all the way to zero.
This approach might provide the intended privacy benefits with much less noise, but also not alienate the average user that expects social to be free of any cost.
23B1|1 year ago
Regarding getting celebrities and influencers, you're going to have to pick from a group of people who are either highly tolerant of seeing their content next to, say, something really odious, or are already considered persona non grata. I'm certain you understand the reasons for this, so let me jump straight to my suggestions:
1. Work on a federated model a la bluesky that is censorship-proof but highly customizable so that people can form up around content they want to see and content they one (this is a very hard balance)
2. Be 'free speech friendly' and accept the fact that you may have to censor, but just be transparent about it. One of the biggest problems with censorship on the bigs is that its opaque, inconsistent, and nonsensical and hurts people who have no idea what they're doing or why it's 'inconsistent with Meta's values' or what the fuck ever.
You are opening a can of worms but its also a much-needed alternative so I wish you the best of luck.
swizzle36|1 year ago
In any case, I'm working on a small project to support smaller social medias. Not trying to promote too much but it's called Soshials (soshials.com) and is basically like producthunt but for social media platforms. An additional twist is that users can actually join "cohorts" to try the new social media platforms for a month and give feedback.
I think getting feedback from real, initial users (instead of just friends/family) is a real reason why it's hard to iterate on and improve new platforms. Interested to hear if others have similar thoughts on how to actually launch a new social network.
ripped_britches|1 year ago
I’d focus on finding an amazing new way to rethink how usage works and privacy can be a nice afterthought. But know this is possibly the most competitive consumer software space in existence.
talkingtab|1 year ago
And there is your problem statement. There is vast uncertainty about how to get there, even what ways there are to get there. You have to clarify all the uncertainty and there are no a priori answers. Just start going and see what happens. There is no recipe and if there was it would probably be for something you would not like.
[Edit: I am serious, not trying to be critical or facetious. As someone who has tried similar things, there is no recipe, so if you want to do x you just start with that fact and go.]
zharknado|1 year ago
A privacy-first solution by its nature is unlikely to benefit from network effects. You don’t organically discover content that has to be explicitly shared with you.
So they way to do it is to already have a network or platform and then allow private photo sharing. E.g. Apple Photos built on the iOS ecosystem or if WhatsApp had a photo feed.
One idea would be to sell photo-sharing tech to a non-US messaging app that’s popular abroad like Viber or CacaoTalk or that serves some niche community. (Photo-sharing for low-bandwidth users in developing countries?) Maybe it aggregates shared photos into an ergonomic feed or something. But they could just copy that themselves; it’s hard to monetize an improved UX directly without the data/community to power it.
GuB-42|1 year ago
The entire point of such a social network is to be public, exposure is the point, not privacy. You want to broadcast your content to the entire world, you want recognition in terms of "likes" or for the luckiest, money, you don't go there to keep secrets.
For a privacy-first social network, usually what people want is to form smaller groups where people know each other. Think more like Discord than Instagram, or for a more privacy-focused alternative Matrix.
Alternatively, maybe take a look at OnlyFans. They are quite successful and don't depend on ad revenue, and considering what they do, I think people care about privacy.
wheelerwj|1 year ago
If you were really going to approach it, you would launch a privacy focused messaging app, which could add filters and other simple Photo and video editing tools because most people are now sharing in small message groups and not publicly for everyone to see.
Temporary_31337|1 year ago
It is a hairy problem but it’s hard to frame it in such a way as to make it attractive enough to the masses to switch from existing networks
t1E9mE7JTRjf|1 year ago
HPsquared|1 year ago
popupeyecare|1 year ago
I felt like this is a problem I have. I want to hear about my friends’ lives, but no one posts on Facebook/Instagram anymore. And my feed is now constantly influencers.
However, after hearing all these comments/experiences, I will be pivoting! Thanks you for your post and saving me a headache.
muzani|1 year ago
Cara has some problems with funding and scaling too - it was founded by a photographer who knows her aesthetics but might need some technical (and financial) help.
https://cara.app/explore
sfmz|1 year ago
thunderstruck|1 year ago
I hadn’t yet thought through specifics like “friend-post” or “public-post” modes, or whether non-users would be able to view public posts without an account.
musicale|1 year ago
https://wired.me/technology/artists-are-leaving-instagram-ai...
chaostheory|1 year ago
It cannot work if it’s a free service unless the entity running it is a non-profit ie a private VC funded entity will eventually sell or share your data.
To my knowledge, only Apple has made something like this but it only works best on their platform which limits it.
SheinhardtWigCo|1 year ago
Here's the unfortunate truth:
The challenge of overcoming the network effect is _the_ problem you're solving here. Nothing else really matters. Almost nobody will care that it's privacy-first. Asking HN to help you figure this out indicates to me that you should do something else.
djent|1 year ago
nutanc|1 year ago
Remember, most celebrities will be at most at a distance of six degrees of separation. So you can build up to that.
Xelbair|1 year ago
>social media
you don't. you just killed your only decent revenue source, and will never out compete others. Social media live and die by their users.
gizmo|1 year ago
I don't know what the next big social network will look like but I think the one key thing you need to solve for is authenticity.
zadler|1 year ago
I’d suggest that the answer is not how to attract celebrities but in the first instance how to attract any users. My platform is novel and interesting and even then it’s not easy.
thunderstruck|1 year ago
blululu|1 year ago
davisr|1 year ago
dearlinko|1 year ago
mixmastamyk|1 year ago
Launch? Need a marketing budget and someone who knows how to spend it wisely. Maybe a contest as well.
maxehmookau|1 year ago
Make a privacy-first Instagram-like social network and (here's the important part) charge for it.
https://glass.photo/ is a good example.
digdugdirk|1 year ago
That said, I have no idea how to even vet the feasibility of a network like that, but one can dream.
nprateem|1 year ago
reachableceo|1 year ago
I would make it community / area of interest centric (like Reddit).
Attract deep subject matter experts for the categories.
I actually own some domains that could be perfect for this site….
Email me (charles@turnsys.com) and I can go into more detail.
lulzury|1 year ago
bitbasher|1 year ago
josefresco|1 year ago
Without funds to pay them directly, you'll most likely need to offer them equity or some sort of commission/affiliate model.
fsckboy|1 year ago
WD-42|1 year ago
egypturnash|1 year ago
ruthmarx|1 year ago
True privacy comes from having control over your data.
AlienRobot|1 year ago
bilekas|1 year ago
Why would anyone bother ? I think you didn't read the request completely.
1vuio0pswjnm7|1 year ago
It sounds like revenue-first.
Horffupolde|1 year ago
wepple|1 year ago
*one minor catch is that you’ll have to start as a billionaire
dotcoma|1 year ago
r3trohack3r|1 year ago
Brain dumping my thoughts in this space (actively working in it), sorry if it is disorganized.
I would start by deconstructing your problem statement more and focusing on _why_ you want to build this; be very explicit and precise about your thesis. After getting a clear and conscise articulation of your why, your thesis, go talk to people about it. Randos at the bar, the gym, your church, school. Your social network, if successful, will be used by these people. Find places to kick up conversations with strangers. Ask them what they do. Eventually they'll ask you what you do in return. Use that as an opportunity to pitch your "why" and see if they get excited.
If random people aren't getting excited, your why isn't compelling.
If you are wanting to imitate Instagram, you are building a _social media_ application not a _social networking_ application. Social networks are focused on community building (creating social connections). Social media is a variable rate reward machine (casino) that hypes up randos on the internet in an attempt to make them famous in front of other randos on the internet. Social media algorithms optimize for things like "engagement" and "view time" - is this compatible with your current thesis? If not, what changes do you need to make to the Instagram experience to make it compatible? If it is privacy first, how will you feed your algorithm?
You also need to solve the game theory of the platform. Its more than just revenue, though getting people to pay you for this is a big part. The game theory includes moderation, lawfare, personal morals, etc. How are you approaching _sharing and storing content_? Are you going to slot a server into a server rack? You'll have to pay for that of course. But you'll also have nation states and other power seeking actors knocking on your door about your thesis and asking for control/influence over that server- what are you going to tell them? How are you going to align incentives so that your thesis doesn't fail under the pressure from U.S. clandestine operations? Will you be compelled by law at some point to abandon your thesis? Will you be compelled by your own morals to abandon it? How will you handle that?
When it comes to infrastructure costs, the more you personally host the more revenue you'll need to keep the thing afloat. It doesn't matter if you are a non-profit, a public benefit non-profit, a for-profit entity... someone will have to give you money to pay for storing and serving all that content.
The more you can rely on the infrastructure provided by your users (their internet, their compute, their storage) - the cheaper it will be to run. The more you rely on your users infrastructure, the fewer centralized points of control their will be for power seeking actors to try to capture.
This is getting rambley, sorry. I've spoken on this before (in the context of building peer-to-peer social networking experiences) if interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeZgCy3ub6M
mglikesbikes|1 year ago
You’re about to get a very tough education on who uses social networks and why they do it. It has nothing to do with privacy. Would urge you to not bother.
mglikesbikes|1 year ago
1. Tar Pit Ideas: https://youtu.be/GMIawSAygO4
2. Tar Pit Ideas, the Sequel: https://youtu.be/GU9iT7MW0rs
throaway4rsns|1 year ago
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