They're as much a human as some living cells I shed on the floor. Alive and genetically human.
Being a person involves some level of thought, not just existing. If you ripped my brain completely out, and kept my body alive, most would consider the brain removal the time of death. That's when the person they knew died.
When you get a scrape and you bleed, thousands of your cells burst forth and die.
Each has the same set of information necessary to rebuild an entire person. Have you committed mass murder?
The strongest arguments against abortion don't hinge on whether the fetus is a person. The question of abortion ultimately boils down to whose rights we privilege: those of the mother, or the fetus?
Why would the fetus have any rights that are not automatically defeated by the rights of its mother if it's not a person? All anti-abortion arguments that I'm aware of start by arguing that the fetus deserves the rights of a person, and then proceed from there. Could you present a counterexample?
Heck, a sperm and an egg in separate containers have exactly the same information as a fertilized egg. That's a powerful argument for having a clear idea of what creates moral personhood.
Otherwise you're in the same camp that believes a sky daddy breathes a soul into your baby at conception and that IVF is the work of Satan.
In that case, it would also be a good argument against killing any single-celled organism, since it's a life that already exists. But life on Earth is cheap.
I don't think that DNA is just procedural assembly instructions. Though maybe more akin to something like the encoding of a neural network. Granted I have a basic understanding of DNA.
Yeah?! You think so? Perhaps yours a strong argument against consumption of anything born this way, renders all meat consumption a bad thing with these same arguments… I bet 5€ you had your burger this morning and it had plenty of already dead cells in it, not to account for the yeast in the bread…
> From the moment the egg is fertilized, a new person exists.
The potential for a new person exists. Just as the potential for new people exist in a collection of sperm and egg cells.
The only difference, which you seem to be latching onto, is that now that potential has been turned into a more specific one. Why do you think that makes any real difference? It seems like an arbitrary and abstract argument that depends on an almost mystical perspective.
> This is a strong argument against abortion.
It really isn't. In fact, it's fallacious, because to accept the argument, you have to accept premises that produce the desired conclusion - i.e. it's question-begging, assuming its conclusion.
It would be a so-so argument if it was true. (It is not) How DNA is expressed is a part of the story as well which involves many environmental factors both in utero and after birth.
We do not totally understand how it works, but there are heritable traits not passed via DNA - the one often in the news is women with emotional trauma pass that trauma on to their children, and those children show those symptoms even if raised in a happy home with 0 contact with the mother.
It is a philosophical argument, not a scientific one. One which if we try and reason based on how special nature treats embryos quickly falls apart anyways...
For the most part epigenetic traits seem to be transmitted by DNA too. Rather than being encoded in the pattern of base pairs, the epigenetic changes are made by slightly modifying the structure of individual bases. Think of it as adding tags to instructions.
lisper|1 year ago
No, that's not true. Those two cells require a lot of care and nurturing and education before they become a person.
Have you heard of HeLa cells?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa
They have a full compliment of human DNA, but no one in their right mind would argue that they are a person.
[UPDATE] This pithy slogan just occurred to me: a zygote is a person like a set of blueprints is a house.
Jerrrrrrry|1 year ago
[deleted]
nitwit005|1 year ago
Being a person involves some level of thought, not just existing. If you ripped my brain completely out, and kept my body alive, most would consider the brain removal the time of death. That's when the person they knew died.
jyounker|1 year ago
maroonblazer|1 year ago
Thiez|1 year ago
ants_everywhere|1 year ago
Otherwise you're in the same camp that believes a sky daddy breathes a soul into your baby at conception and that IVF is the work of Satan.
incompatible|1 year ago
TheHegemon|1 year ago
nwienert|1 year ago
moomin|1 year ago
dukeofdoom|1 year ago
larodi|1 year ago
antonvs|1 year ago
The potential for a new person exists. Just as the potential for new people exist in a collection of sperm and egg cells.
The only difference, which you seem to be latching onto, is that now that potential has been turned into a more specific one. Why do you think that makes any real difference? It seems like an arbitrary and abstract argument that depends on an almost mystical perspective.
> This is a strong argument against abortion.
It really isn't. In fact, it's fallacious, because to accept the argument, you have to accept premises that produce the desired conclusion - i.e. it's question-begging, assuming its conclusion.
Jerrrrrrry|1 year ago
The cognitive dissonance is too strong, this entire subject should honestly be banned from HN.
RajT88|1 year ago
We do not totally understand how it works, but there are heritable traits not passed via DNA - the one often in the news is women with emotional trauma pass that trauma on to their children, and those children show those symptoms even if raised in a happy home with 0 contact with the mother.
It is a philosophical argument, not a scientific one. One which if we try and reason based on how special nature treats embryos quickly falls apart anyways...
jyounker|1 year ago