top | item 42150278

Maybe Bluesky has "won"

461 points| GavinAnderegg | 1 year ago |anderegg.ca | reply

793 comments

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[+] PaulHoule|1 year ago|reply
My take is that Bluesky is a nicer place than Mastodon.

Personally I think politics are terrible on microblogging platforms for the reason that you can't say very much in 140 characters or even 1400 characters.

A common kind of profile on that kind of platform is: "There are good people and bad people and I'm one of the good people"

It is very easy to other people and share memes that build group cohesion while driving other people away. Really making progress requires in politics a lot of "I agree with you about 90% but there is 10% that I don't" or "Well, I negotiated something in the backroom that you'd really hate but headed off a situation you would have thought was catastrophic but you won't appreciate that I did it so you and I are both better off if I don't tell you" and other sorts of nuance, you don't want to see how the sausage is made, etc.

To stand Mastodon (where you would have thought fascists were taking over the world a year ago if you believed what you read) I have to have about 20 or so block rules.

I see some people with the same kind of profiles on Bluesky but see a lot less othering in my feed because the "Discover" feed on Bluesky filters out a lot of angry content. My rough estimate is that it removes about 75% of the divisive political junk. That

(1) Immediately improves my feed, but also

(2) Reduces the amount of re-posted angry political content (it's like adding some boron to the coolant in a nuclear reactor) and

(3) Since angry political memes don't work anymore people find a different game to play

My guess is the X-odus folks are less agreeable than average for the same reason why people who "left California" to go to Colorado or someplace else are less agreeable. Those who go are less agreeable than those who stay. On the other hand, a certain amount of suppression of negativity could stop it from spreading and might not even be noticed as "censorship".

[+] ASalazarMX|1 year ago|reply
The most crucial decision when joining Mastodon is choosing the most friendly instance. I have a strong interest in interacting with cybersecurity professionals, so infosec.exchange was perfect for me, either browsing subscribed or local posts. Browsing all is something I do only when I'm bored, because many posts are not what I'd like to see. You can always migrate your account if you want.

https://instances.social/

That being said, BlueSky is simpler and easier because there's no real federation yet, and even if they have a "Discovery" algorithm, you get many options to control what you want to see. It's feels great, like Twitter before their 2012(ish?) IPO.

[+] Gormo|1 year ago|reply
> Personally I think politics are terrible on microblogging platforms for the reason that you can't say very much in 140 characters or even 1400 characters.

I think what you're saying here is not that politics are terrible on microblogging platforms, but that microblogging platforms are terrible, which is a pretty valid sentiment.

[+] satvikpendem|1 year ago|reply
I'm not sure Bluesky filters out angry content at all, as this is what I see when I don't follow anyone or have any followers [0]. I wish there was way more filtering than what I currently see as it makes me not want to even interact with Bluesky if that's what I see as a new user.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/XHmidRt

[+] cobertos|1 year ago|reply
> My guess is the X-odus folks are less agreeable than average for the same reason why people who "left California" to go to Colorado or someplace else are less agreeable.

The activation energy of moving ones home is very different from moving a social profile. I also find in some old, dead communities I was a part of, the most toxic people can't pull themselves away and stick around

[+] calf|1 year ago|reply
That just sounds like Mastodon users, many who are academics, are more to the left than you are, and you are cleverly framing their culture as more "divisive", "performative", and/or "tribal" compared to your own arguments which arguably are also just as tribal and performative.
[+] Karrot_Kream|1 year ago|reply
I agree largely with what you wrote but have a small disagreement. I don't actually think the character count has that big of an effect. I've seen plenty of self-righteous posts on places like here (HN) and the LessWrong forums that just use more words to do the same thing.

I think the kind of person that's energized to comment online generally feels more strongly about the issue than most lurkers. This means that online conversations are dominated by the most passionate, most invested, and often least interested in impartiality. This post [1] comes to mind.

[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/9rvroo/most...

[+] SoftTalker|1 year ago|reply
> My take is that Bluesky is a nicer place than Mastodon.

It's certainly a better name, if nothing else. Names like Mastodon, Diaspora, are just terrible. One sounds lika a dinosaur, the other like an unpleasant condition of the large intestine (yes I know what diaspora means).

[+] Kye|1 year ago|reply
They recently shipped some changes to Discover to make Show Less and Show More actually work. If I understood right[0], they only collected data from them until that point.

The result isn't perfect, but I do notice it's much more in line with what I want in a timeline.

[0] I should save more links! The devs talk openly about what they're working on and the changes that end up in the app and protocol, so I have the knowledge that something changed, but not always a link to the source of that knowledge since it was just another post in the timeline.

[+] moomin|1 year ago|reply
In my experience the people who left first were the funny and interesting ones. I left a while later because I was bored.

Turns out HN is my Colorado.

[+] barfingclouds|1 year ago|reply
I have bluesky and mastodon accounts and I’m always surprised at how people extreme people call them. I have them just as my music/photography accounts. So the people I add are doing the same stuff. My feed is just as extreme as Flickr aka zero extremeness. Just pictures of bridges and music and normal thoughts.
[+] energy123|1 year ago|reply
Is there any structural reason that will prevent Bluesky becoming like Twitter in the future?
[+] mort96|1 year ago|reply
> To stand Mastodon (where you would have thought fascists were taking over the world a year ago if you believed what you read)

I guess you'd be a year early but I mean, the outwardly fascist candidate just won the US presidency so I'm not sure what your point is?

[+] matrix87|1 year ago|reply
> My take is that Bluesky is a nicer place than Mastodon.

For Mastodon, it's not just political, it's cultural

It's too out there for most people (as in, any random popular public instance you go to)

[+] ashildr|1 year ago|reply

[deleted]

[+] mrtksn|1 year ago|reply
A year ago, Bluesky was an empty place, I wanted to use it but there wasn't anything. Now its bustling, there are interesting posts and they receive thousands of likes.

On the other hand Twitter still feels like where things are actually happening but more and more feels like they are about to start terminating anyone with eyeglasses.

I was there when the Digg exodus happened, it doesn't feel like that. It's something else. It feels like Twitter becoming a monoculture and others are having their monoculture somewhere else because Bluesky also doesn't feel diverse to me - more like the opposite of Twitter.

[+] dang|1 year ago|reply
Recent and related:

How to migrate from X to Bluesky without losing your followers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42147430 - Nov 2024 (42 comments)

1M people have joined Bluesky in the last day - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42144340 - Nov 2024 (109 comments)

Ask HN: Bluesky is #1 in the U.S. App Store. Is this a first for open source? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42129768 - Nov 2024 (44 comments)

Ask HN: Will Bluesky become more popular than Twitter? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42129171 - Nov 2024 (13 comments)

Visualizing 13M Bluesky users - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42118180 - Nov 2024 (236 comments)

Bluesky adds 700k new users in a week - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42112432 - Nov 2024 (168 comments)

How to self-host all of Bluesky except the AppView (for now) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42086596 - Nov 2024 (79 comments)

Bluesky Is Not Decentralized - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41952994 - Oct 2024 (194 comments)

There are lots more...

[+] Retr0id|1 year ago|reply
> This is because the data in the network is all cryptographically signed based on what came before it. The protocol does this using the Merkle tree structure, which is also how Git stores data. The issue with this is: if you want to look at one piece of content in the system, you also need to know about everything that happened before.

This isn't quite accurate. You only need the MST blocks in the merkle path(s) back to the root, for the subset of records that you care about. For a single record, that's O(logn) blocks on average, where n is the total number of records in the repo. For a full checkout, the MST block count is ~33% of the number records in the repo, on average.

(MST = Merkle Search Tree, which is a special type of merkle tree, distinct from the one used by git - https://inria.hal.science/hal-02303490/document )

> Also, it would be great to edit posts! I believe this is tricky because of the Merkle tree structure mentioned above

It's not so tricky at the MST level, and it already happens there when you edit your bio for example. What is tricky (relatively) is figuring out how to represent post edits at the UI/UX level.

For context, I'm working on my own PDS implementation in Python, with corresponding library for working with the MST (both fairly WIP):

https://github.com/DavidBuchanan314/millipds

https://github.com/DavidBuchanan314/atmst

[+] quectophoton|1 year ago|reply
Bluesky looks promising. In my bubble it seems like a lot of artists have been moving to it after some Xitter fiasco with AI training or whatnot (idk, I don't keep up with those news).

But, this:

> Radically open

> I think some might be surprised to learn how open Bluesky is. It’s trivially easy to grab an export of any user’s data. It’s also a core assumption of the service that all the data (aside from out-of-protocol stuff like DMs) is completely open.

I'm still skeptical of Bluesky having "won" until the average user is completely aware of things like this. I fully expect that there will be some drama about this openness at some point in the future.

When this happens, we'll see if people go back to Twitter again (how many times has it been already?); or if they embrace this new social network where your art and posts can be scraped waaaaaay more easily than in Twitter, so they're probably more likely to be used for AI training anyway.

Until conversations about these topics happen between non-tech users, I'm mostly just watching how the situation evolves.

[+] throwaway48476|1 year ago|reply
n=1 but I've never seen a bluesky content link in the wild. I've seen lots of people talking about bluesky or moving to bluesky though.
[+] minimaxir|1 year ago|reply
It takes a bit for content to go viral. Bluesky was mostly irrelevant until just over a week ago.

Since then I've seen plenty of Bluesky embeds in articles where there wouild have been Twitter/X embeds.

[+] lamontcg|1 year ago|reply
US soccer journalists seem to have migrated to bluesky en masse, and I just saw a very active thread, with a bunch of names that I recognized, cross posted to reddit.

That is definitely a quantum jump beyond a bunch of geeks posting about rust or whatever.

[+] Starlevel004|1 year ago|reply
Saw one for a sports journalist on a subreddit. I think that's a clear sign of it making it, given how twitter and reddit are joined at the hip
[+] af78|1 year ago|reply
Another data point. When Musk bought twitter and started wrecking it, several people I followed created an account on blue sky but most did not use it that much. This seems to have changed over the past week (i.e. after the US election). Dozens of users have moved, pro-Ukraine people in particular. Some double post. As certain content creators move, others do the same, amplifying the trend. It's interesting to see network effects at play.
[+] CSSer|1 year ago|reply
People do that when feel it's socially acceptable to do so. It feels like it could be a matter of time. A million people joined in a 24 hour period yesterday.
[+] ZeroGravitas|1 year ago|reply
I saw my first local news story sourced to someone posting about something he photographed in the street to bluesky yesterday.
[+] donohoe|1 year ago|reply
Thats a factor of time given how new it is - and likely inevitable.
[+] MiguelX413|1 year ago|reply
I see a few in some Telegram chats that I'm in
[+] EmersonL|1 year ago|reply
I loved Twitter. It was this magic place where I could connect with both friends and legends in my field (programmers). That’s not what it is anymore and it’s impossible to ignore how political it’s become.

Bluesky feels like Twitter used to and it’s shockingly refreshing to hear about industry news and friendly updates rather than some “pick-up artist” explaining how women are too privileged these days.

[+] ineedaj0b|1 year ago|reply
Twitter/X is great. I like it quite a lot. Follow people you like and keep that number under 100. Or if you just started, under 25 and add people slowly. Unfollow people quickly if they annoy you! Or mute them if you still like them but they annoy you temporarily.

There's two feeds: for you (the algo) and following. following is the traditional only people you know feed.

If you're having trouble with the people on X you might need to reconsider yourself. Why are you not open to many viewpoints? Diversity of thought and people should be welcome and if you hope to change minds, you do need to be able to interact with those people to do so.

I did theater when I was younger, and I think a lot of my 'open' friends weren't open per-say they were just weird and like being in the weird group more than being truly open.

[+] GMoromisato|1 year ago|reply
I remember Quora circa 2016 fondly. It had a high number of interesting people writing deep insights into their area of expertise. And then, of course, since they are a venture-backed startup, they tried to grow, and it all went sideways.

I think a small, somewhat homogeneous community is very attractive. You get a high ratio of interesting posts and very little toxic behavior.

The problem is those communities never scale. Maybe they can't scale. Technology won't solve this problem (because it is not a technology problem). Moderation also won't solve the problem (IMHO) because it's either too expensive at scale, or it just imposes the homogeneous viewpoint of a subset of the community.

Maybe the balkanization of social media is the best we can hope for.

[+] nabla9|1 year ago|reply
Threads has 275 million monthly active users.

Bluesky has now 15 million total users (how many active?)

Mastodon monthly active usage has dropped below 1 million.

[+] llm_nerd|1 year ago|reply
Whatever one's feelings about these microblogging services, one truth that has become clear is that none of them -- X, Bluesky, Threads, or anything similar -- should be considered "the commons". They're private businesses with their own motives that are often in complete conflict with your own.

A lot of people made the mistake of treating Twitter like a commons and have been burned. My local police force posts all notices about traffic, missing people, foiled crimes, etc., on Twitter out of inertia. That is wholly inappropriate, and wasn't appropriate even when before it become some brain-worm infected oligarch's rhetoric megaphone. The same goes for many organizations, politicians, and so on. It was never the right choice. And the solution to one bad choice isn't to move to the same mistake on some other service. These people and orgs need absolute and complete ownership over their own platform.

Mastodon / ActivityPub seems like it might scratch that itch, but what a bloated sloppy mess that is. The right idea, with the wrong implementation.

Honestly would prefer all these people and places just published RSS feeds.

[+] okhuman|1 year ago|reply
There will be no great migration like we saw in 2010 with users shifting from Digg to Reddit but, instead, only the slow trickling escapes of users to more dispersed communities.

Here the human condition can flourish in a more localized way, with more participation (less lurking). No more winner takes all.

[+] sherburt3|1 year ago|reply
Did everyone in tech run out of new ideas in 2013 or something? There’s something so depressing about the hot new app of 2024 being a Twitter clone.
[+] bsimpson|1 year ago|reply
Decentralization feels like it's driven more than idealism/zealotry than pragmatism. In theory, I understand the appeal of owning your data. In practice, systems churn. I haven't had a portfolio in years, because I used AppEngine to host mine; they forced everyone to migrate to Python 3 after I'd built it, and I never bothered to update it. Meanwhile, everything I uttered on Facebook in college still exists. (And plenty of precious content that ended up on other services, like Qik, no longer does.)

If "owning" my data means I need to spend time learning a new format and setting up a way to publish that format on a domain I own, and then maintain it into the infinite future, the odds I'm gong to bother are very low.

The Linux chat rooms are on Matrix because highly ideological people are active in Linux communities, but everyone else just uses Discord. And even Matrix has a webapp that makes it almost as easy as Discord.

[+] eBombzor|1 year ago|reply
Why is this site so unbearably political now? Some of these takes are almost as bad as the stuff you find on the front page of Reddit...
[+] spike021|1 year ago|reply
As with a lot of things these days, the places you congregate are what you make of it.

Putting aside the issues with who owns twitter and some of their recent policy shifts about content, I still have relatively sanitized feeds where I mostly only see friends' content. I'm still making new friends from Japan on it through our shared hobbies. Most of the sports news I follow is still there.

Nothing materially has changed about how I use the platform.

Bluesky is still pretty empty. Maybe some "nodes" of it are getting busier as people trickle out of twitter but I'm not sure it matters much until theres more saturation of many more things.

[+] tmvphil|1 year ago|reply
One thing I like about bluesky is it allows you to watch embedded videos from external media sources (e.g. youtube) without leaving the app. Seems like twitter/X was clearly opposed to the loss of control this entailed.
[+] jazzyjackson|1 year ago|reply
I don't understand this critique:

> I’ll also add that the reason I’m a big fan of a ActivityPub solution like Mastodon is that it’s quite inexpensive to run your own complete stack unless you’re extremely famous. Hosting a Mastodon instance is a one-step process, and you then control everything. To get the same experience with atproto, you’ll need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars a month, and even then you still don’t control everything as of today.

When you run a mastadon instance you're not mirroring the entire network, so its a bad comparison. I'm quite interested to find whether there will be niche relays that only index posts from certain pds (or provide a kind of community-chat discord competitor by being one server that hosts the PDSs of the community, and also provides the relay and appview for that community)

[+] GavinAnderegg|1 year ago|reply
If you want to run your own social platform, you can do so by running your own Mastodon instance. If you want to do the same with Bluesky, you simply can't at the moment. You'll either need to rely on other parts of the system that you don't control, or you'll need to control the whole system at great expense.
[+] shadowfacts|1 year ago|reply
> When you run a mastadon instance you're not mirroring the entire network, so its a bad comparison.

That's the point, though. You don't need (nor, I imagine, would most people want) to mirror the entire network. If not needing to mirror the entire network makes self hosting simpler, then that is an advantage for the people interested in self hosting.

[+] rldjbpin|1 year ago|reply
personally do not understand the same, but for a completely another reason.

microblogging, i.e. twitter, succeeded in the first place because people just want to post, and not worry about taking care of technical things.

in the demographics that often forget the password they once set, expecting "one-time setup" and "complete control" when they do not change default settings for most things is very out of touch with reality.

we are still living in the internet that for the most part wants someone else to take care of these things for them. but besides the ownership, there is nothing that is also setting bluesky aside for a regular folk. we ought to do better before celebrating any level of success.

[+] pornel|1 year ago|reply
I'm concerned that Bluesky has taken money from VCs, including Blockchain Capital. The site is still in the honeymoon phase, but they will have to pay 10x of that money back.

This is Twitter all over again, including risk of a hostile takeover. I don't think they're stupid enough to just let the allegedly-decentralized protocol to take away their control when billions are at stake. They will keep users captive if they have to.

[+] majgr|1 year ago|reply
EU should simply buy it.
[+] givemeethekeys|1 year ago|reply
A quick look at the Bluesky homepage having never been there before tells me that it's just another Reddit without the r/conservative part.