[listless]

This isn’t surprising. It’s also not an indication that women are doing better than men writ large. Most degrees are not worth the investment. A few high performing ones hold the average up. Trades are desperate for workers and have above average pay. Men are much more likely to do those jobs. The risk is that women are going to be left with more debt and will be less employable in the long run.

But for a society that acts like everyone’s worth is wrapped up in whether or not you have a degree, we should be a lot more concerned about this than we are.

[zifpanachr23]

This would make sense if college degree requirements weren't rampant for tons of jobs that shouldn't require them.

It's a hard requirement a lot of the time in tech as well. Doesn't matter anymore whether you have 10+ years experience at a large company in <very fancy subfield that requires at least grad school level expertise in something very academic> like compilers or something. You'll be viewed as a neanderthal that probably can't or didn't pass Calculus.

In the past, that was less of an issue. A culture of self study (on prerequisite academic topics) was more prevalent. Now the base assumption is that you stumbled into your position and have been flying under the radar as a dimwit changing the color of buttons.

Theories as to why this is now the case:

- Increased competition and rise of CS enrollment and improved perception of CS degrees.

- Bootcamp grads giving recruiters and hiring managers a bad impression about everyone self taught.

- Overhiring in certain subfields and at certain large tech companies causing a reduction in the signaling value of experience.

- Age discrimination

So in other words, with the exception of physical trades, credential inflation is definitely a real thing and it definitely has an impact on how easily you can move positions and/or negotiate compensation.

And if you couldn't tell, yes I'm salty on account of having had to waste time and money going back to finish a degree that I was overqualified for just in order to not immediately get lumped in with bootcamp grads. The entire ordeal was academically worthless. Don't make my mistake kids...stay in school even if it feels like you aren't learning anything so that you don't have to go back and do it while also juggling adult responsibilities. I think this is a mistake that men are probably more likely to make than women as well, which could help explain some of the gender discrepancy in graduation rates. Call it overconfidence fueled by testosterone or something.

[spwa4]

> You'll be viewed as a neanderthal that probably can't or didn't pass Calculus.

Funny you say this 1.5 months after I find out that the university where I got my master's dropped calculus classes (from the bachelor subjects, there never was much non-applied math in the master years). Logic (mathematical logic), discrete math, combinatorics and theoretical statistics have been dropped years past (more than a decade for logic). Applied statistics and "Math I + II" (essentially revision of high school calculus, practical only, no theory, e.g. no more treatment of the difference between Riemann and Newtonian integration) are all the math that's left.

Master degree holders starting 4 years from now will all be "neanderthals that probably can't or didn't pass Calculus". Or at least know little of the theoretical underpinnings of calculus.

[EasyMark]

I think that you’re missing out on the fact that you’re an outlier. Most people in tech do not get there by hacking away at their computer as a teenager on up, or as a hobby (or work related self education). That’s why companies use a college degree as a filter, especially in jobs that are heavily theoretical and not “we’ll just grind on it with man hours until it’s finished”. It suck that you are an outlier but that doesn’t mean companies have to take a chance on you. Life isn’t fair very often, that’s why it’s extremely important to network, go to conventions or trade shows, or volunteer if a company wants someone on site at a 3rd party. I’m in your boat as well. All I have is an undergrad, but I work with PhD’s because I have niche knowledge and experience that a lot of them do not, and after being in the industry for a while I can hold my own, even though this job tends to require PhD as a degree filter.

[tbrownaw]

> It's a hard requirement a lot of the time in tech as well

I've always seen "or equivalent experience". I'd assumed that including that alternative was mandatory-ish for the same reason that explicit intelligence tests are reportedly lawsuit magnets.

[el_benhameen]

I am not an expert in this, but I think that the “trades pay above average” argument has become accepted as fact when the data isn’t so clear. BLS average wage in 2023 was $64,000 and change. Plumbers, carpenters, and electricians were $67k, $60k, and $67k, respectively. Solid money, but not easy or well above average. Tradespeople who work in high demand sectors, run their own businesses, or become masters can certainly be compensated well, but they are not the norm, and it takes a long time to get there.

I’m with you on the moral argument. My dad was a master carpenter and is one of the smartest people I know. And his work will be around long after mine has become obsolete.

Citations:

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472031.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472111.htm

[clusterhacks]

BLS figures show tradeworkers make about the median salary in the US - it isn't above average. In the Occupational Outlook handbook, The mean annual wage for all occupations is $65,470. The trades:

  Plumber - median $61,550 per year
  HVAC tech - median $57,300 per year
  Electrician - median $61,590 per year
  Framer(Carpenter) - median $56,350 per year
  Bricklayer(Mason) - median $53,010 per year
  

Job demand also seems to be about average compared to overall jobs.

I agree that investing heavily in many degrees is probably ill-advised.

[lastofus]

It's a bit apples to oranges to compare mean to median? Or at least Honeycrisp to Gala...

[quickthrowman]

Union plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, and sheet metal workers all make more than $50/hr on the check and $100/hr with fringes in my metro area with a population of 3 million.

You can see what union trades make in a specific area by searching for “prevailing wage [city name]” and looking at the wage tables.

[PedroBatista]

Employee tradeworkers make good average money, self-employed trades people make a ton more money.

I think the silver-lining here is: be competent at your job and all aspects related to it, but do that while being your own boss.

Not much different from other areas but in this case, trades are in high demand and the initial investment in terms of capital is very little compared to "start a company and hope to break even in an year or two".

[jay_kyburz]

I don't know what its like it the states, but many household Plumbers and Electricians are actually running their own small company and work very hard to minimize their take home salary.

But regardless of career path, the real trick is to raise your children to aim higher than median. :)

You don't want to be a plumber, you want to run a plumbing empire!

[Der_Einzige]

In the Bay Area and other places where tech workers congregate, trades people make far above these numbers. These numbers are kept low by the south, which might as well not count for the purposes of the average demographics of this website.

[bluesnews]

Pay for women is on the rise and exceeds men in many metropolitan areas already. I don't really buy the worthless college degree topic argument.

[bdangubic]

you should provide a source(s) for claims like this…

[johnnyanmac]

We're just in a really bad "liquid" economy right now, so it's easy to feel that narrative of "college degrees are useless".

They aren't useless, but as tuition rises it is inevitably going to be a worse investment. Not to the point where trades are worth its equally annoying but different kind of annoyance, though. Pay depends on unions, and get into trade unions is anything but a meritocracy.

[ekidd]

The fundamental challenge with the trades is that some of them are extremely hard on your body. I know roofers who've taken multi-story falls and gotten put back together with steel pins. Plumbers often have issues with their knees or back. If you're lucky or you pick a good specialty, you can make it to your 40s in OK shape. But I've seen a lot of people with chronic problems, and a few with serious disability.

One of ways that I've seen middle-aged people succeed in the trades is to hire a crew and turn it into a business. But by definition, not everyone can be the boss.

It can be a great career if you stay healthy! But I think we should be careful about answering every employment or education question by immediately saying "trades."

[choilive]

Younger women in urban/metro areas are doing significantly better than their male peers economically (higher employment rates and income). This gap is increasing.

Young women are doing worse than their male peers in rural areas economically. This gap is closing.

What implications this has for society at large I can only speculate.

[yodon]

Source?

[roenxi]

In addition to not being surprising, it also isn't news. These trends appear to date back more than 30 years, so they were around when pretty much everyone in the workforce was college-aged. The people who haven't lived through this, if they exist, are on the verge of retiring.

[kevinventullo]

Maybe also worth noting that in computer science, a major which I think most would agree is worth the investment, men still greatly outnumber women.

[jay_kyburz]

As a non US citizen, can you tell me how much a computer science degree costs? I've heard students are left with hundreds of thousands in debt when they graduate.

Also, can you pay student loans with pre tax income?

I've worked with many talented engineers over the years who didn't have degrees and have had no trouble finding jobs and moving around. I imagine a degree might help you get a foot in the door, but once you can demonstrate you can do the job, seems to be easy to pick up more work.

I really wonder how damaging that debt would be for a young person who is also trying to save for a house and start a family.

[duxup]

> Most degrees are not worth the investment.

Is that accurate “most”, and is it only when compared to trades?

[johnnyanmac]

>So why aren’t we applying the same logic to this?

because you're going up a whole waterfall to convince anyone we live in a matriarchy. Teachers are majority female because sexism as well, on both sides (nothing gets more of a sideeye from judgy peers than being a male and saying you work with kids). and loads of DEI programs have focused on helping female student succeed. So I'm not surprised that can tilt the scales in an environment that already benefitted feminine disposition (a quiet, orderly environment that you need to sit calmly at and listen for an hour or 2).

>But if men invented all of it, why are women outperforming men? That’s the nuance that needs to be answered here. It’s not solely just intelligence. Wokeism prevents you from reasoning from the dark side, to be able to see the fundamental fact that men are the creators of tech, science and civilization.

Well if you want an inconvenient truth: men in general care a lot less about men than women about women. That's part of why that whole "sigma male grindset" and divisions within men of "alphas and betas" was able to work so easily. Men see men as competition, and there's no easier way to get blind acceptance than to pick a target and tell them that they are the reason you are miserable.

All that happens and we suddenly wonder why men are undergoing a loneliness epidemic and why its not uncommon to not hear from friends for weeks, months on end and treat that as normalcy.