I lived overseas for a time in an area that didn't use English. I loved it, enjoyed being there, but one day I noticed that I was talking to myself! At first, it was just exclamations out loud (quietly) when something happened around me. It progressed to me describing or evaluating my meal, a book, a scene I was looking at. I realized it when I noticed ppl looking at me strangely (they normally did anyway), and as I looked back wondering why they were looking at me, it hit! I had been talking out loud to myself, normal volume! Why? I figure it was loneliness; but loneliness for hearing English. I was the only one who could speak it! And then it hit me again, a new found epiphany about all those "crazy homeless" ppl who I'd seen back home, muttering to themselves as they wander around. What if, instead of (or in addition to) being mentally unwell, they were just lonely, and having no one to talk to led to them talking to themselves? Whoa.
As someone who's considered himself lonely for most of his life, I can very much relate with the idea of feeling like an outcast, like an alien, someone who doesn't really fit in or understand what others find interest in. I think, in my case at least, it was probably related to being told over and over as I kid that I was doing everything wrong, that I wasn't acting manly enough, etc. Being told I didn't fit in led me to believe it. After a long journey of rebuilding my self-worth, I'm a lot less lonely this days, but I still feel it pulling at me, especially when I'm in a situation where I feel like an outsider.
I'm a state that resonates a lot with what you wrote, thank you for that. Checking out your bio I found out you have a very interesting blog, I really liked "Unexpected Benefits of Being Vulnerable on the Internet" as it's something that I often wonder about, how we condition ourselves to say things we believe will be accepted (and to receive upvotes) instead of what we truly feel, leaving our true self behind.
> Shared reality fosters social connections between people and increases confidence in one’s knowledge because it is corroborated by others. While lonely individuals report feeling disconnected from others in terms of their interests and ideas it was previously unclear to what extent this is true with respect to the zeitgeist—defined here as the widely shared perceptions between members of contemporary culture.
I kinda get what they were looking for but knowledge and description of "celebrities" seems like a poor metric for many reasons including somebody just not interested in celebrities. For example, one can be lonely but online all day and so very connected to the "zeitgeist." Or one can have many interactions with other people but never discuss
celebrities.
But, ignoring all that, the headline suggested that loneliness alters something in the brain akin to how blindness alters ones view of reality. Or maybe it's the different way of thinking and talking that leads to loneliness.
Justin Bieber, Ellen DeGeneres, Kim Kardashian, Barack Obama, and Mark Zuckerberg
The celebs in the test. I'm not sure I could say anything meaningful about Bieber other than he's a pop star from Canada. Similar for Kardashian - Instagram influencer with lots of cosmetic surgery and makeup. Is the test expecting me to know other details beyond the completely inane and superficial?
It would be even worse if they tested on athletes. I haven't watched any of the big US sports in decades. NFL, NBA, MLB - no clue. I guess I could answer a few questions about World Tour cyclists, but that's not likely to be on a test outside of Belgium or Italy.
My kids grew up with no TV and no Internet until they were 12 or so. When they applied at a Microsoft-area private school one question asked what celebrity they like and why. They knew of none and didn’t even know the word celebrity.
Interesting premise but did this article _feel_ off to anyone else? Maybe it was me , but did it seem a bit redundant while also not saying a whole lot?
Probably written by a lonely person. It expresses things in unusual ways and has repetition that is not typical when compared to articles written by non-lonely people.
From the article: "lonely individuals tend to perceive that their ideas are not shared by others"
I wonder how the current loneliness epidemic is intertwined with our current social/political climate and "us vs them" polarization.
I suspect almost everyone has some secret disagreements with their in-group, even if only by a matter of degree, but are afraid to voice that opinion. There have to be tens of millions of Americans who identify as a INSERT_POLITICAL_IDENTITY but disagree with some aspect of that group's platform, narrative or goals.
It's a wonder that anyone doesn't feel like their ideas are not shared by others.
> I suspect almost everyone has some secret disagreements with their in-group
This is assuming they have anyone close enough to even call them an in-group
I think there has been an over-emphasis on individuality and a strong resistance to conformity that has been instilled in a lot of people, which has led to a lot of those people cutting ties with anyone that has even minor disagreements with them
They are forever in search of their perfect friend group that doesn't exist, made up of only people who agree with them about every single thing
It's quite amazing how many people call themselves "free thinkers" to mean they have unique ideas, yet those ideas usually align with a huge percentage of the population.
> Loneliness corresponded with idiosyncratic [unusual, unique] neural representations of celebrities as well as more idiosyncratic communication about celebrities
must be the best argument to date for being more lonely.
Non-lonely people interact with one another, continuously exposing themselves to each others views and opinions (even if indirectly).
A lonely person won't be part of this echo chamber, so their opinions will usually be self-formed and less influenced by the collective opinion of others.
It's easy to see how this creates a feedback loop. A lonely person doesn't share as many worldviews with non-lonely people, so has a harder time fitting in, which makes breaking the cycle even harder.
I find it strange that there's so much alignment in gen pop on how celebrities are perceived, and that any original opinion on these celebrities is considered "idiosyncratic". I feel like there's a Spiegelgrund being built somewhere for people who don't think Taylor Swift is the absolute cat's ass, because that means they're different and different is threatening.
Also, what constitutes idiosyncratic neural representation of celebrities? Back when Britney Spears became huge, my nickname for her was "the succubus", after a contemporaneous episode of South Park in which Chef fell under the sway of a succubus when she sang "The Morning After" to him. Britney Spears was clearly an idiot, and she had a weak voice compared to other female singers, yet when people saw her gyrating and mewling on MTV'S TRL they went absolutely bonkers and I didn't get it. Is that idiosyncratic celebrity ideation?
> Chronic loneliness is linked to mental health issues like depression and anxiety, as well as physical health problems, including weakened immunity, cardiovascular disease, and an increased risk of mortality.
A lot of pshycologists make that claim but I haven't found any compelling studies that prove it. Depression and axiety is understandable because we're social animals but the physical aspect isn't convincing unless the socially isolated person is lying around in bed doing drugs and eating unhealthy food all day. In that case instead of loneliness, we should blame drug abuse. It's unclear whether drug use is causing social isolation or if the latter is causing drug use.
All the studies I've seen so far have weak evidence and most of them don't address confounding factors. I'm no scientist but I'd appreciate if someone could point to studies with strong evidence about this claim.
> five well-known celebrities (Justin Bieber, Ellen DeGeneres, Kim Kardashian, Barack Obama, and Mark Zuckerberg)
It feels weird to me to bundle a tech CEO and a former President of the United States in with a pop idol, a talk show host, and a reality TV influencer as "celebrities".
Meanwhile I don’t listen to anyone on that list except for Charli XCX because I arrived at her music from a rave/hyperpop background and then became a stan with her last album Crash in 2022.
I was tired of BRAT though about 2 weeks after release because I listened to the teasers so much… then it blew up and even attached itself to VP Harris…
There are many cultures. You’re on HN, so my guess is you’re connected with today’s hacker culture. I’ve heard of 6 of those names, but can’t name any song from any of them. It just means I have my own interests.
I recognize 8/10 as well, but like you, can't name actual songs from most.
Same would have been true if I was tested in the mid-90s (HS and college). Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys - I know the names, but can't think of the names of songs. I'd test better on alt/grunge rock of the era - STP, Nirvana, REM, etc.
And I don't think I'm particularly lonely - I happily married, have a few office friends, and see normal friends regularly. I'm not as social as I was in my 20s, but I assume that's normal.
These artists are definitely popular, but I doubt they are the most popular. The list doesn't fully match up with the most streamed artists list on Spotify, for example.
Charli XCX is a standard-issue pop singer. She's a brunette. She's probably best known for doing the singing bits on "Fancy", the only Iggy Azalea song you know (if you know any at all).
I’m 4/10 on that one as far as name recognition. Similar to you, I can only could think of one song from lady Gaga. Eminem is the only one which multiple songs come to mind, not that I could name them.
I grew up on 90’s and early 2000’s college radio, and am now a Doom/psychedelic rock kind of guy, and spend a good amount of time and money curating what I love.
I am disconnected from pop culture. It has repeatedly failed to deliver what I enjoy, and typically comes bundled with advertisements so I have no reason to pay attention to it.
> Does that make me very disconnected with today's culture?
Just disconnected with pop culture. I only know 6 of the names on that list and can only name Brain Damage by Eminem off the top of my head. I don't know what Taylor Swift sounds like though I have probably heard a few of her songs in my day to day without noticing. Just don't worry about it and do what makes you happy.
Same result here, never heard about karol G and Charli XCX but to be fair, I find most modern pop music to be very manufactured and boring. People like Max Martin can create a lot of hits but it makes the music rather uninteresting.
Just listened to Brat from Charli XCX and yeah, not missing much.
I feel that when it comes to Music, being in sync with pop music is more of a generation thing.
On the other hand, I wouldn't describe myself as lonely... I'm not super social (I've worked remotely for 13 years because I don't particularly like working in an office) but I do meet up with friends 2 times a week (used to be more but with a kid at home, there's less time).
Something that's been talked about every so often is that there aren't representative (generational) pop icons for the past few generations (probably from millenials onwards).
One theory from Japan, that I still remember and think is most likely, is that the democratization of entertainment since the 80s and especially from the 90s onwards with the invention of the internet has eliminated the very concept of pop culture.
Back in ye olde days a person's choices for entertainment were fairly limited, basically a small regional selection. People in the same locale ended up consuming the same entertainment and thus gravitated towards forming similar tastes and directing their fervor on that small selection of entertainment.
Entire generations identify with icons of their time like Gary Cooper, Gregory Peck, Marilyn Monroe, Ingrid Bergman, Elvis Presley, and so on. Entire generations sang "the song of their people" so to speak.
Today, though? Everyone can access any entertainment they want from anytime anywhere. The entertainment consumed by one person is very likely completely different from that consumed by a person right next to him; entertainment has been democratized. There is no longer a "song of our people" because everyone has a "song of me", there are no longer generational icons because everyone has their own icon.
The intense political push from the Left to make any form of social cohesion and loyalty undesirable also hasn't helped. The dismantling and removal of tradition, religion, and nationalism/patriotism from society means there can't be a "song of the people" from outside of entertainment either.
So no, I don't think you're disconnected with today's culture. Rather, today's culture doesn't value social cohesion and unity as much as it does freedom and power. Everyone has their own icon and song, everyone is their own generation.
The causal relationship here would be extremely interesting: Do those individuals start off with brain that is slightly differently wired than the "normie" population and become lonely because they just don't vibe well with them? Or is their loneliness causing their speech and thought patterns to diverge, because they have less opportunities to "resync" with the mainstream culture? Or a sort of feedback loop of both - or something else completely?
> Lonelier individuals were also more likely to use unusual language when describing well-known celebrities and to describe them in ways that were not typical for their group.
How is that surprising? If they are lonely, they are not part of the group and intergroup communication (including shared values, opinions, gossip etc).
The text fails to define "unusual" in a meaningful way other than "not part of the majority". It's like saying "we found that the minority tends to vote differently than the majority".
Indeed, I struggle to even imagine what "use unusual language when describing well-known celebrities" even means! Maybe like using "musician" rather than "artist" or some other combination?
edit: Ok, I've read through the paper, and still have no idea. Apparently the responses to questions were compared as semantic vectors using cosine similarity in Google’s Universal Sentence Encoder space. Or something lol.
Very unsurprising but perhaps still valid research that needs to be done to be known. A better conclusion might have been: increasing socialisation increases homogeneity of language use.
So many words used to convey so little meaning, what a waste of time. How do they think differently about celebrities, why, and is it a bad thing in and of itself?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the abstract here, but doesn't this also suggest that lonely individuals more readily reach their own conclusions about common ideas and concepts? I can't get away from the thought that all this confirms is that groups tend to converge their thinking and speech through regular contact, and that different social groups (including groups of one) will diverge in thinking over time.
"Our findings provide evidence that loneliness is associated with deviations from the zeitgeist, specifically when it comes to perceptions of well-known celebrities"
Soooooo... thinking differently than the majority of people may lead to loneliness, because those who think differently than the zeitgeist have a hard time connecting with the majority of people because of the way they think?
[+] [-] scooke|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] spuds|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] htk|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ErigmolCt|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pcdoodle|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] aaron695|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] hasbot|1 year ago|reply
From the conclusion of the original article:
> Shared reality fosters social connections between people and increases confidence in one’s knowledge because it is corroborated by others. While lonely individuals report feeling disconnected from others in terms of their interests and ideas it was previously unclear to what extent this is true with respect to the zeitgeist—defined here as the widely shared perceptions between members of contemporary culture.
I kinda get what they were looking for but knowledge and description of "celebrities" seems like a poor metric for many reasons including somebody just not interested in celebrities. For example, one can be lonely but online all day and so very connected to the "zeitgeist." Or one can have many interactions with other people but never discuss celebrities.
But, ignoring all that, the headline suggested that loneliness alters something in the brain akin to how blindness alters ones view of reality. Or maybe it's the different way of thinking and talking that leads to loneliness.
[+] [-] alistairSH|1 year ago|reply
The celebs in the test. I'm not sure I could say anything meaningful about Bieber other than he's a pop star from Canada. Similar for Kardashian - Instagram influencer with lots of cosmetic surgery and makeup. Is the test expecting me to know other details beyond the completely inane and superficial?
It would be even worse if they tested on athletes. I haven't watched any of the big US sports in decades. NFL, NBA, MLB - no clue. I guess I could answer a few questions about World Tour cyclists, but that's not likely to be on a test outside of Belgium or Italy.
[+] [-] tomcam|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] wigglyartichoke|1 year ago|reply
There's a reason emotional security is 3rd on the Maslow Hierarchy, after food and physical security
[+] [-] cjaackie|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] RadiozRadioz|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] FranklinMaillot|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mgraybosch|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] marcuskane2|1 year ago|reply
I wonder how the current loneliness epidemic is intertwined with our current social/political climate and "us vs them" polarization.
I suspect almost everyone has some secret disagreements with their in-group, even if only by a matter of degree, but are afraid to voice that opinion. There have to be tens of millions of Americans who identify as a INSERT_POLITICAL_IDENTITY but disagree with some aspect of that group's platform, narrative or goals.
It's a wonder that anyone doesn't feel like their ideas are not shared by others.
[+] [-] bluefirebrand|1 year ago|reply
This is assuming they have anyone close enough to even call them an in-group
I think there has been an over-emphasis on individuality and a strong resistance to conformity that has been instilled in a lot of people, which has led to a lot of those people cutting ties with anyone that has even minor disagreements with them
They are forever in search of their perfect friend group that doesn't exist, made up of only people who agree with them about every single thing
[+] [-] mmsc|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] lazyeye|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dinkblam|1 year ago|reply
must be the best argument to date for being more lonely.
[+] [-] ANewFormation|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] portaouflop|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] atmavatar|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] WhyNotHugo|1 year ago|reply
Non-lonely people interact with one another, continuously exposing themselves to each others views and opinions (even if indirectly).
A lonely person won't be part of this echo chamber, so their opinions will usually be self-formed and less influenced by the collective opinion of others.
It's easy to see how this creates a feedback loop. A lonely person doesn't share as many worldviews with non-lonely people, so has a harder time fitting in, which makes breaking the cycle even harder.
[+] [-] bitwize|1 year ago|reply
Also, what constitutes idiosyncratic neural representation of celebrities? Back when Britney Spears became huge, my nickname for her was "the succubus", after a contemporaneous episode of South Park in which Chef fell under the sway of a succubus when she sang "The Morning After" to him. Britney Spears was clearly an idiot, and she had a weak voice compared to other female singers, yet when people saw her gyrating and mewling on MTV'S TRL they went absolutely bonkers and I didn't get it. Is that idiosyncratic celebrity ideation?
[+] [-] brokegrammer|1 year ago|reply
A lot of pshycologists make that claim but I haven't found any compelling studies that prove it. Depression and axiety is understandable because we're social animals but the physical aspect isn't convincing unless the socially isolated person is lying around in bed doing drugs and eating unhealthy food all day. In that case instead of loneliness, we should blame drug abuse. It's unclear whether drug use is causing social isolation or if the latter is causing drug use.
All the studies I've seen so far have weak evidence and most of them don't address confounding factors. I'm no scientist but I'd appreciate if someone could point to studies with strong evidence about this claim.
[+] [-] krackers|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] VyseofArcadia|1 year ago|reply
It feels weird to me to bundle a tech CEO and a former President of the United States in with a pop idol, a talk show host, and a reality TV influencer as "celebrities".
[+] [-] le-mark|1 year ago|reply
So psychology is now the study of mice, college freshman, and mechanical Turks? I have not seen this before.
[+] [-] svnt|1 year ago|reply
e.g. https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
[+] [-] TekMol|1 year ago|reply
Reading this article and its mention of celebrities I was like "Who are today's celebrities anyhow?"? And typed
into Google. It came back with: I have heard 8 of the 10 names before. Never heard about "Karol G" and "Charli XCX".I can only think of one song performed by one of them: "Paparazzi" by Lady Gaga.
Does that make me very disconnected with today's culture?
[+] [-] mikrl|1 year ago|reply
I was tired of BRAT though about 2 weeks after release because I listened to the teasers so much… then it blew up and even attached itself to VP Harris…
[+] [-] christophilus|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] alistairSH|1 year ago|reply
I recognize 8/10 as well, but like you, can't name actual songs from most.
Same would have been true if I was tested in the mid-90s (HS and college). Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Backstreet Boys - I know the names, but can't think of the names of songs. I'd test better on alt/grunge rock of the era - STP, Nirvana, REM, etc.
And I don't think I'm particularly lonely - I happily married, have a few office friends, and see normal friends regularly. I'm not as social as I was in my 20s, but I assume that's normal.
[+] [-] Fraaaank|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bitwize|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Modified3019|1 year ago|reply
I grew up on 90’s and early 2000’s college radio, and am now a Doom/psychedelic rock kind of guy, and spend a good amount of time and money curating what I love.
I am disconnected from pop culture. It has repeatedly failed to deliver what I enjoy, and typically comes bundled with advertisements so I have no reason to pay attention to it.
[+] [-] MisterTea|1 year ago|reply
Just disconnected with pop culture. I only know 6 of the names on that list and can only name Brain Damage by Eminem off the top of my head. I don't know what Taylor Swift sounds like though I have probably heard a few of her songs in my day to day without noticing. Just don't worry about it and do what makes you happy.
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] keiferski|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sersi|1 year ago|reply
Just listened to Brat from Charli XCX and yeah, not missing much.
I feel that when it comes to Music, being in sync with pop music is more of a generation thing.
On the other hand, I wouldn't describe myself as lonely... I'm not super social (I've worked remotely for 13 years because I don't particularly like working in an office) but I do meet up with friends 2 times a week (used to be more but with a kid at home, there's less time).
[+] [-] Dalewyn|1 year ago|reply
One theory from Japan, that I still remember and think is most likely, is that the democratization of entertainment since the 80s and especially from the 90s onwards with the invention of the internet has eliminated the very concept of pop culture.
Back in ye olde days a person's choices for entertainment were fairly limited, basically a small regional selection. People in the same locale ended up consuming the same entertainment and thus gravitated towards forming similar tastes and directing their fervor on that small selection of entertainment.
Entire generations identify with icons of their time like Gary Cooper, Gregory Peck, Marilyn Monroe, Ingrid Bergman, Elvis Presley, and so on. Entire generations sang "the song of their people" so to speak.
Today, though? Everyone can access any entertainment they want from anytime anywhere. The entertainment consumed by one person is very likely completely different from that consumed by a person right next to him; entertainment has been democratized. There is no longer a "song of our people" because everyone has a "song of me", there are no longer generational icons because everyone has their own icon.
The intense political push from the Left to make any form of social cohesion and loyalty undesirable also hasn't helped. The dismantling and removal of tradition, religion, and nationalism/patriotism from society means there can't be a "song of the people" from outside of entertainment either.
So no, I don't think you're disconnected with today's culture. Rather, today's culture doesn't value social cohesion and unity as much as it does freedom and power. Everyone has their own icon and song, everyone is their own generation.
[+] [-] xg15|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] grvbck|1 year ago|reply
How is that surprising? If they are lonely, they are not part of the group and intergroup communication (including shared values, opinions, gossip etc).
The text fails to define "unusual" in a meaningful way other than "not part of the majority". It's like saying "we found that the minority tends to vote differently than the majority".
[+] [-] gilleain|1 year ago|reply
edit: Ok, I've read through the paper, and still have no idea. Apparently the responses to questions were compared as semantic vectors using cosine similarity in Google’s Universal Sentence Encoder space. Or something lol.
[+] [-] adammarples|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] throawayonthe|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] thrance|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pragma_x|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] grantmuller|1 year ago|reply
Soooooo... thinking differently than the majority of people may lead to loneliness, because those who think differently than the zeitgeist have a hard time connecting with the majority of people because of the way they think?
[+] [-] isaacfrond|1 year ago|reply
But I now understand that it is just that: different. They do not conform to what the norm thinks.
Seen in that light: lonely people are lonely because they are weird. Right. Good to know.