"We don't know exactly which customer's money went into which bank(s)" gets a bit more spicy when you add the fact all the customers put in $265m and the real-banks only seem to have $180m of it, and AFAIK nobody has a clear explanation for the missing $85m. (~32%)
P.S.: I also find it amusing that they stored+hosted their financial ledger using MongoDB. Not that you can't commit massive financial mismanagement with any tool, but I was not a fan of the "NoSQL" evangelism of the 2010s.
> P.S.: I also find it amusing that they stored+hosted their financial ledger using MongoDB. Not that you can't commit massive financial mismanagement with any tool, but I was not a fan of the "NoSQL" evangelism of the 2010s.
I wonder if use of MongoDB creates a legal liability. I’m not up to date on the architecture of MongoDB but I am under the impression that it couldn’t be reliably used for this kind of thing?
(The problem here is not nosql, I believe you can do reliable accounting with ScyllaDB and Cassandra as long as you design things correctly. Basically only ever allow append/add but never allow update/delete. I’m not sure if this is true of MongoDB.)
I followed the "Launch HN" of Yotta 4 years ago and deposited some money.
Evolve Bank says "we have determined that we are not holding your funds and you will not be receiving a payment from Evolve" (reconciliationbyevolve.com)
Yotta customer support says "According to the Synapse Trial Balance Report, your funds are with Evolve Bank & Trust".
It doesn't appear I'll ever be getting that money back. It's not enough that I'll hurt, but it'll make me think twice about trusting a non-bank fintech startup and their "FDIC insured" claims.
I know it wasn't a traditional bank, but when they start talking about "winning" $10 million and "picking your numbers", it sounds sooo sketchy... I can't imagine putting money into something like that. (excuse me while I go buy more DOGE coin...)
Probably not worth it but if it's less than about $5k you may be able to sue in small claims court. It's unlikely the bank will even show up and in that case you would win by default. Collection might be a challenge though.
On the contrary, the banks aren't on the hook here! If they have a clear answer for "Yes, this customer's money is with you", then they pay. If not, they sit on the funds until some court orders them to do something with them.
The banks are winning big time here. It's their customers who eat the risk.
Ultimately the source of the loss is going to turn out to be some fraud at Synapse that caused their bankruptcy, but it seems like no one has details on that yet. But until then, the banks are sitting on unowned/untraceable free cash. They're loving this deal.
IANABanker but I suspect it was appealing for the 4 "real" banks because they barely had any work to do. From their perspective they had one single corporate customer called "Synapse" with an account that had a nice huge balance, and life was easy.
Contrast that to if the same sum was divided across thousands of individual accounts. Each would involve a certain amount of regulatory reporting, identity proof, pestering people to pick a beneficiary, monthly statements, etc. In addition there would need to be some way for Synapse to do deposits/withdrawals on the owner's behalf, and more of the sum would be FDIC insured meaning more money would be going out to the FDIC in insurance premiums.
If I understand it correctly, the bank had an account in which Synapse put money. The bank knows how much money Synapse had in its account. This is all that the bank was responsible for. The people who were customers of Synapse's customers, were three levels removed from the bank.
I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant, this is just my understanding of the article.
The feds need to come crashing down on operations like this. Perhaps you should need to be an accredited investor before you can put your $280K nest egg into a poorly regulated not-bank offering 'prize linked savings' accounts.
The accounts were genuinely FDIC insured. Evolve is a real bank.
But a few months before the bankruptcy, Evolve pushed Synapse to move the money into non-FDIC insured brokerage accounts. As far as I can tell, this was:
- a way to move a hole in the balance sheet from an FDIC insured to an uninsured place
- completely illegal, insofar as the only user consent was a manual opt-out, and some users weren't even sent emails about the change.
The “accredited investor” thing always seemed like a scam to me. Like if you have a lot of money we will trust that you know how to invest, otherwise we won’t let you.
The problem here is knowing customer balances. A lot of the money is still out there, but it is not properly associated with any individuals so it's infeasible (at present) to get them back their money. Which is different than what FDIC is there for, which is to insure against a bank being unable to cover deposits, but balances have been properly tracked.
If Synapse (and apparently their partner Evolve) had been moderately competent at the job they set out to do, this could have been resolved a while ago. Instead the founder of Synapse is already off to a new venture and doesn't care about the people he screwed over, though I'm sure he feels bad when asked about it. Keep failing up.
Another reason why this probably wont happen is that the government bails out banks beyond the FDIC insurance when people lose faith in the ponzi scheme that is the us banking system.
Since the government can clearly point out that these companies were not banks they can just say, "look at these idiots who didn't put their money in a bank" and they have solidified confidence in the banking system EVEN MORE
> In June, the FDIC made it clear that its insurance fund doesn’t cover the failure of nonbanks like Synapse, and that in the event of such a firm’s failure, recovering funds through the courts wasn’t guaranteed.
It seems they should be able to sue Evolve (the bank), given that they money is there, and there's proof that the money's there.
IE, the risk of 3x damages should be enough to scare the bank into paying out.
Yotta is who the people gave their money to. Yotta then used Synapse (which went bankrupt) to actually deposit the money into not-per-user accounts at 4 different banks. As-in, if you had an account with Yotta your money would be co-mingled with thousands+ other individuals into a singular Evolve account.
Evolve has no proof that your money is within the account Synapse held with them. As-in your money could be at one of the 3 other banks.
Yotta is the one being irresponsible for not keeping track of how Synapse split the funds. (Although arguable Evolve shouldn't keep co-mingled funds since that sounds like a KYC violation).
--
This is why not only does your broker not hold your stocks for you, they also tell the holding company who owns them.
Yotta is speed running the financial system's previous failures.
>> In June, the FDIC made it clear that its insurance fund doesn’t cover the failure of nonbanks like Synapse, and that in the event of such a firm’s failure, recovering funds through the courts wasn’t guaranteed.
Sounds like this would apply to other non-banks like Mercury.
fyi Fidelity is also not a bank. They might be older, but they're just as much not a bank as Betterment or Wealthfront. Wealthfront gives you a statement from Green Dot, which is actually a bank. Charles Schwab and Chase are actual banks as well. Robinhood should not be trusted with more than beer money.
Sounds like Synapse was a great money laundering schemme.
My conclusion is that all aggregators are bad. Economies of scale are bad.AI is bad. Anything that devalues humans is bad.
Everything has just become bad.
Reminds me of our blooming awareness of environmental pollution in the 70s.
Except instead of it being obvious, this 'financial pollution' is insidious, invisible.
Until small pockets of people are crippled. And that is why it persists-because enough people are spared this time and the inertia of the majority prevents action. Next month it will be another corruption exposed. Silicon valley bank, enron, Lehman, Salomon ....It just keeps going.
Terr_|1 year ago
P.S.: I also find it amusing that they stored+hosted their financial ledger using MongoDB. Not that you can't commit massive financial mismanagement with any tool, but I was not a fan of the "NoSQL" evangelism of the 2010s.
throwup238|1 year ago
Embezzlement is finally web scale! [1]
[1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs
scripturial|1 year ago
(The problem here is not nosql, I believe you can do reliable accounting with ScyllaDB and Cassandra as long as you design things correctly. Basically only ever allow append/add but never allow update/delete. I’m not sure if this is true of MongoDB.)
dangrossman|1 year ago
Evolve Bank says "we have determined that we are not holding your funds and you will not be receiving a payment from Evolve" (reconciliationbyevolve.com)
Yotta customer support says "According to the Synapse Trial Balance Report, your funds are with Evolve Bank & Trust".
It doesn't appear I'll ever be getting that money back. It's not enough that I'll hurt, but it'll make me think twice about trusting a non-bank fintech startup and their "FDIC insured" claims.
This is what Yotta's website looked like in 2020, where "FDIC insured" is the most prominent part of their pitch, and one of the homepage blocks is titled "You can’t lose": https://web.archive.org/web/20200630201639/https://www.withy...
Turns out, we could lose.
micah94|1 year ago
tdeck|1 year ago
IANAL.
duxup|1 year ago
>As a result, the partner banks and fintechs were all reliant on Synapse to determine how much each customer was owed at all times.
I don’t understand how a partner bank would… want to do this?
As a bank knowing your numbers and who you owe seems like a fundamental function, why would you leave that to some middle man and some strange portal?
How do you know they don’t just suddenly say you owe more than you expect?
It sounds like a big risk for a bank….
ajross|1 year ago
On the contrary, the banks aren't on the hook here! If they have a clear answer for "Yes, this customer's money is with you", then they pay. If not, they sit on the funds until some court orders them to do something with them.
The banks are winning big time here. It's their customers who eat the risk.
Ultimately the source of the loss is going to turn out to be some fraud at Synapse that caused their bankruptcy, but it seems like no one has details on that yet. But until then, the banks are sitting on unowned/untraceable free cash. They're loving this deal.
Terr_|1 year ago
Contrast that to if the same sum was divided across thousands of individual accounts. Each would involve a certain amount of regulatory reporting, identity proof, pestering people to pick a beneficiary, monthly statements, etc. In addition there would need to be some way for Synapse to do deposits/withdrawals on the owner's behalf, and more of the sum would be FDIC insured meaning more money would be going out to the FDIC in insurance premiums.
rossdavidh|1 year ago
I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant, this is just my understanding of the article.
rootusrootus|1 year ago
ctbeiser|1 year ago
But a few months before the bankruptcy, Evolve pushed Synapse to move the money into non-FDIC insured brokerage accounts. As far as I can tell, this was:
- a way to move a hole in the balance sheet from an FDIC insured to an uninsured place
- completely illegal, insofar as the only user consent was a manual opt-out, and some users weren't even sent emails about the change.
bryan0|1 year ago
Workaccount2|1 year ago
Just like they bailed out the totally average definitely not rich people/corporations who got wiped by SVB collapsing.
Right guys? Right?
Jtsummers|1 year ago
If Synapse (and apparently their partner Evolve) had been moderately competent at the job they set out to do, this could have been resolved a while ago. Instead the founder of Synapse is already off to a new venture and doesn't care about the people he screwed over, though I'm sure he feels bad when asked about it. Keep failing up.
from-nibly|1 year ago
Since the government can clearly point out that these companies were not banks they can just say, "look at these idiots who didn't put their money in a bank" and they have solidified confidence in the banking system EVEN MORE
ElonChrist|1 year ago
[deleted]
neilv|1 year ago
> Synapse still can't find its money (bloomberg.com) 28 points by ekpyrotic 2 hours ago | unvote | flag | hide | past | favorite | 43 comments
I did find two other stories:
> 154. Americans see their savings vanish in Synapse fintech crisis (cnbc.com) 246 points by hunter2_ 2 days ago | flag | hide | 237 comments
> 163. Synapse debacle cost some users their life savings (axios.com) 18 points by toomuchtodo 4 hours ago | flag | hide | 10 comments
AyyEye|1 year ago
toomuchtodo|1 year ago
QuadmasterXLII|1 year ago
from-nibly|1 year ago
gwbas1c|1 year ago
It seems they should be able to sue Evolve (the bank), given that they money is there, and there's proof that the money's there.
IE, the risk of 3x damages should be enough to scare the bank into paying out.
lesuorac|1 year ago
Yotta is who the people gave their money to. Yotta then used Synapse (which went bankrupt) to actually deposit the money into not-per-user accounts at 4 different banks. As-in, if you had an account with Yotta your money would be co-mingled with thousands+ other individuals into a singular Evolve account.
Evolve has no proof that your money is within the account Synapse held with them. As-in your money could be at one of the 3 other banks.
Yotta is the one being irresponsible for not keeping track of how Synapse split the funds. (Although arguable Evolve shouldn't keep co-mingled funds since that sounds like a KYC violation).
--
This is why not only does your broker not hold your stocks for you, they also tell the holding company who owns them.
Yotta is speed running the financial system's previous failures.
lostmsu|1 year ago
Sounds like this would apply to other non-banks like Mercury.
Tempest1981|1 year ago
For those who missed the previous story and discussion 3 days ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42219407
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
gethoht|1 year ago
fragmede|1 year ago
bawana|1 year ago
My conclusion is that all aggregators are bad. Economies of scale are bad.AI is bad. Anything that devalues humans is bad.
Everything has just become bad.
Reminds me of our blooming awareness of environmental pollution in the 70s.
Except instead of it being obvious, this 'financial pollution' is insidious, invisible.
Until small pockets of people are crippled. And that is why it persists-because enough people are spared this time and the inertia of the majority prevents action. Next month it will be another corruption exposed. Silicon valley bank, enron, Lehman, Salomon ....It just keeps going.
Brian_K_White|1 year ago
Elizabeth0147|1 year ago
[deleted]
Elizabeth0147|1 year ago
[deleted]
AnneGalathe|1 year ago
[deleted]
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]