Conversational Game Theory

[QuadmasterXLII]

Is there an exposition of the ideas and results of conversational game theory in the format and authorial style of an academic paper? Even if there is no intention to submit it to e.g. neurips, creating and prominently linking to such a pdf could help not only to refine the ideas but to communicate to outsiders. The linked website takes a while to get to the point and filled up my crank-o-meter before I got answers to basic questions like “what loss are the agents trained on” or “what do you think the equilibrium of this game is and why do you think that.” The field has settled on the (paper, github, blog post) link triplet for good reason.

[azath92]

I would also love some more traditional explanation of the ideas. My impression is the author is operating outside "the field", in a traditional academic sense, whether you are referring to AI/ML or game theory research. I had a bit of a search for citations or other mentions of their 9x3 nerrative logic or Conversational Game theory and only found their own sites (in a few different places https://bigmotherdao.com/f-a-q/, parley.aikiwiki.com) or an article under some contention by the author themselves on RationalWiki https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rome_Viharo. The mentioned professor James H. Fallon doesn't appear to have clear links to project outside of what is stated in the article.

My crank-o-meter (great phrase) overflowed at this point, but I am also genuinely interested in some kind of more clarity around the ideas, or where they came from in an academic legacy sense, as they felt like they might have some interesting bones.

Maybe someone with stronger google foo can find more, or confirm absence?

[waveBidder]

I'm surprised something where the crankmeter goes off so strongly made it to the front page.

[hoofish]

Hi, thanks for feedback. Project is in stealth mode at the moment, I was not expecting the response.

[zug_zug]

I'm having trouble understanding all the upvotes for a wall of buzzwords from across-fields. Would love to understand what this even is in plain english if somebody has the time.

[sdwr]

It's saying, "AI needs consistent, scored rules for communication, so it can self-train being a person the same way it self-trains winning games of Go" (sure).

Then it says "we have those rules" (they don't) "and they work great" (they don't) "and you can't see them" (sure).

[lugao]

Exactly! And it was obviouslly written by (or with help of) a LLM. The first definition is even gramatically incorrect! Lets see what gemini thinks of the first paragraph if I force it to criticize it:

https://g.co/gemini/share/97c1d475aae1

[hoofish]

Hi, thanks for your response. If you reach out to the founder on linked in, he is happy to give you a demonstration.

[hoofish]

There isn't any buzz words being used, you could simply look up with the words mean if you don't understand them.

"Conversational" is plain english for conversation. "Game Theory" implies what it says.

Which words made it so challenging? Let me know and I can explain.

[hoofish]

thx for response. I think it is pretty straight forward on the site. project is in stealth mode. "Conversational Game Theory" is pretty straightforward.

[pmontra]

There is a 77 minutes video in the Project Reviews page from the menu of the left. Maybe there is a demo in there but I didn't bother to check. It's conversational, it's text based, why didn't they include a textual demo in a page?

[totetsu]

parley.aikiwiki.com. ?

[elif]

It seems like the AI decision making is 'immutable' but in the end it will always come down to training data

[noduerme]

It's worse than that. The entire notion of an independent arbiter is deceptive at best, because the decision making will always come down to how the questions are framed.

The claim here is that an automated process backed with enough data and computational power can distill any of the world's most intractable conflicts and come up with a compromise immune to "toxicity" and human bad-faith. I'd submit that in any conflict in which at least one actor is acting in bad faith to begin with, in the absence of an overriding ethical framework, any such compromise would result in a worse outcome than making a decision that one side was right and the other wrong. It's the compromise between hens and wolves.

[hoofish]

No, that is a misunderstanding. No third party or no AI, or AI training data, is used to arrive at a consensus decision, humans have over-ride in the system.

[hoofish]

in CGT, humans make the final decisions, it is a game designed for humans first, AI just came later

[upghost]

this is a so-often overlooked point.

[8BitArmour]

Isn't game theory suitable only for places where all the actors make rational decisions?

[pkoird]

Well, strictly speaking, it is suitable for places where all actors make choices in ways we can predict. So even if an actor was choosing, say, uniformly at random (and we knew this fact), we'd be able to incorporate it into analysis to get some expected behavior.

[hoofish]

That is in classical game theory, in CGT, it is assumed the actors are both rational and irrational

[jsemrau]

Game Theory and Agent Reasoning?

[samirillian]

Once again an entirely backwards, upside down perspective. On Twitter he called politics the easiest job in the world.

Xenophon said that man is the hardest animal to tame. And the author’s “make AI great again” mentality is a perfect example of this untameability.

If it’s not actual AGI don’t tell me how a tool can actually fix the problems it creates. It’s like the author doesn’t have the most basic concept of what a tool is.

Anyway happy Thanksgiving to the Americans

[hoofish]

I think you have a misunderstanding, but you are welcome to believe your first reaction to something you are not familiar with!

[upghost]

Cheers, friend! Thankful for HN and all the great perspectives from around the world. Also thanks for the phrase "Make AI Great Again"! :D

[nomilk]

Quite like the desktop website. Feels like a pdf without the cruft.

[executesorder66]

What is a "desktop website"?