[UweSchmidt]

It appears that sentiments that downplay or dispute the health risks are growing in large social media bubbles, with strong effects on the real world. Efforts to push back on serving unhealthy food are undermined, doctors discouraged from discussing weight with their patients as a personal and sensitive issue; overweight models validate unhealthy body compositions. This surely has to please the food industry, which is as culpable as the tobacco industry in harming peoples health.

I would propose a concerted effort through mandatory levels of food quality that is served to the public (e.g. schools, hospitals), funded by a higher tax on sugary atrocities, limits on sale of sugary food and drinks to children, and an outright ban on any substance designed to create cravings.

[voisin]

Rather than a tax on sugary food how about we cut subsidies that make simple carbs artificially cheap?

[bumby]

I believe the "artificially cheap simple carbs" is a secondary effect, with the primary effect of making corn cheap due to national security reasons. So before removing the subsidies, you'd want to have a plan for managing that risk.

[anigbrowl]

Any politician that does that will be subject to a relentless disinformation campaign alleging they're taking food from hungry families, regardless of any factual basis or quality of outcomes.

[didibus]

I still feel like the root causes are not well known. Blaming sugar is the current trend, but this article talks about weight, American have a fat heavy diet as well, which is very high in calories. Sure, cutting our sugar helps you lose weight, but did sugar cause you to eat all those calories or was it fried food? Who knows?

Then there are processed foods, is that actually the culprit? Or is it really sugar?

Then some things are confusing, someone else linked to a study that showed that "lowest All-cause mortality is at a BMI of 25". Well that's verging on overweight, so people with "healthier" BMI have higher rates of death, weird.

A few days ago a study showed that sugar intake from pastries, ice creams, chocolate and candy reduced your risks of 7 cardiovascular diseases. What's going on?

I say that as someone that's normal weight. I can understand some counter-reaction being wishful thinking, or part of body positivity movements, but objectively when I look at what we know, it's still quite fuzzy.

Having said that, I would not mind over-enforcing in this case. I'd love it for portion sizes to be smaller, for processed foods to be phased out, for sugar content to be lowered in packaged and restaurant products, for deep fried foods to be less common, etc. And ideally, for what we do know is healthy, vegetables, fruits, lean meats, fish, poultry, often the least refined as possible, to be both accessible, convenient and cheap.

[apitman]

Anecdotally, I feel like I can consume way more calories from carbs than fat or protein. I burn out on the other two way faster, and stay satiated longer. Though I agree deep fried is probably second to sweets.

[edflsafoiewq]

The causality seems more likely to go the other way to me.

[llamaimperative]

For almost any problem people care about enough to discuss on a forum like this, it's a fools errand to try to determine "which" way causality goes. It goes both ways. You can't isolate the cause. It's a feedback loop which is what makes it persistent and hard to solve and ergo worth discussing on a forum.

[monero-xmr]

I have told plenty of friends and family that they are fat gross slobs and need to lose weight, and that is the cause of many of their non-specific maladies that doctors can't seem to pinpoint. Sometimes you need to sit someone down and level with them, I'm not going to pretend.

[llamaimperative]

> I have told plenty of friends and family that they are fat gross slobs and need to lose weight, and that is the cause of many of their non-specific maladies that doctors can't seem to pinpoint. Sometimes you need to sit someone down and level with them, I'm not going to pretend.

Key question: are they cured now after you were a jerk? What was the ROI on relationship damage per pound lost?

[bigstrat2003]

Some people may need to be told that, much like some alcoholics are in denial about their condition. But many other fat people know they have a problem, are trying to solve it, and are struggling because it's incredibly difficult to overhaul your lifestyle (even with help and resources). While telling the first group of fat people "hard truths" might be what they need, it will simply demoralize the second group and might get them to stop trying. It's not as simple as you're painting it.

[nerdjon]

There is a middle ground, and I agree that there are some people that have gone too far.

I think body positivity, validating those choices with models that represent more people is a good thing. As a society we should not be judging someone for their choices or making medical claims about their bodies when we don't know their story.

But I also see the extremes of just ignoring it, not even wanting your doctor to talk about it. (I do realize that there are some exceptions to this like when it comes to eating disorders) I don't understand this. I want my doctor to tell me everything, hell I will overshare in the hopes that something is a thing that needs to be addressed.

I have also personally seen a subset of people that push back on anyone wanting to loose weight. I have lost about 45 lbs over the last year (still not at my target weight but I am very close, about 5-10 lbs off so really not stressing and for context I am 6'5). A friend I have not seen in a while recently gave me a hug, commented that I was loosing weight and asked me "Why". I was put off by it, because why is that even a question? You would get mad if I asked why you were gaining weight.

My point here, there is a middle ground and there is a right and wrong place to address this. Society shaming someone isn't the right choice and ignores that we don't know what is really going on with someone.

[UweSchmidt]

As usual it comes down to the increasing individualism, that rejects any overarching societal guidance in favour of judgement-free self-expression ("body positivity"). This removes any collective bargaining or collective action (some of which I proposed in my parent comment) and exposes the individual to systemic risks (food industry making people fat, medical industry giving them a pill to feel better), unless the individual is equipped with enough of Bourdieu's social capital to navigate the pervasive health risks of the modern food supply. Allowing this minefield in place is also a convenient way to maintain class, leaving the unwashed masses hampered by health issues (like diabetes), reduced cognitive function and less attractiveness.

[throwaway756544]

> I think body positivity, validating those choices with models that represent more people is a good thing. As a society we should not be judging someone for their choices or making medical claims about their bodies when we don't know their story.

I’m slightly overweight and an ex-smoker. For years, nothing seemed to help me quit—high taxes, indoor smoking bans, health risks, and so on didn’t diminish my desire to smoke. I tried quitting a few times for financial and health reasons, but it never stuck.

What ultimately got me to quit was social stigma, especially after having kids. The stigma around smoking has grown over the years, but it reaches another level when you become a parent. Other parents didn’t hesitate to judge me for smoking, and I realized there was no way my kids wouldn’t face social consequences because of my habit. That was the push I needed to quit.

I do believe it’s wrong to judge people for their choices, but at the same time, I sometimes wonder if we’re going too far with body positivity. I don’t have all the answers, but I’m grateful for the stigma surrounding smoking—it helped me make a positive change.

[didibus]

> not even wanting your doctor to talk about it

There's been a lot of misdiagnosis due to doctors just thinking it's a weight issue. I think that's one of the reason people have an issue with doctor's handling of weight.

The other area is that it often ignores that the patient is already actively aware, and trying to combat their weight gain. The doctors are not being helpful by just stating the obvious.

Lastly, many doctors are kind of outdated in their knowledge, they'll recommend old diets that are not as effective anymore, or they won't encourage exercise, just diet, or they won't consider family history, and so on.

In those cases, your "doctor bringing it up" can actually just lead to more weight gain, because it can create increased cortisol level from stress and worries, make you more depressed, and so on, which won't help you lose weight.

[vladvasiliu]

> I would propose a concerted effort through mandatory levels of food quality that is served to the public (e.g. schools, hospitals)

The issue I've found is that it's much easier (= cheaper) to have tasty-enough food which is actually "junk". I love me some broccoli or other random steamed veggies with a steak. But when I was in school, these things were horrendous. Everything was a soggy, slimy mess. So fries it was, almost every day, except when they had pizza.

And since this was in my formative years, I can understand how people learn to associate "eating healthy" with that atrocious thing nobody wanted to get close to. So they will tend to gravitate to what they remember as being reasonably tasty.

It was my case, too, until I got fat and tried to do something about it. Which allowed me to discover it's not that much more work to make a tasty meal, which I actually like better. But it does take longer than throwing two frozen burgers in the microwave and calling it a day.

[shin_lao]

Tax won't solve anything - just make it socially unacceptable to be obese.

[bigstrat2003]

It already is. If you are obese, you:

* Can't get clothes that fit you

* Are uncomfortable on public transit, in public places like theaters, etc as the seats are designed for someone much smaller than you

* Can't get into relationships

* Get social feedback ranging from well meaning (but still embarrassing) to downright cruel on a regular basis

In discussions like this, someone always says "the solution is to shame people" as if it's some kind of picnic to be fat. It's not - it's fucking miserable. And even with all that people are still having a hard time taking control of their lifestyle. Shaming people even harder isn't going to accomplish a thing.

[didibus]

America got fat from a culture of fat shaming. So like, we know that doesn't work. Or at least this is not how I see the cause/effect.

To me, it appears that being fat was unacceptable and shameful culturally, but everyone still got fat, and insanely fat even. And once so many people were fat, they started to campaign against the fat shaming.

So fat shaming could actually be seen as having caused the issue.

I think being able to openly talk about the difficulty, challenges, and struggles of weight gain/loss, recognizes the people's struggle, encouraging weight loss, promoting methods and mechanisms, etc. might be more effective.

From the research I've seen, this is also supported by it. Fat shaming can cause increased stress and cortisol levels, emotional eating, avoidance of exercise (especially in public), depression and anxiety, and avoiding medical care due to fear of judgment. Which all in-turn contributes to weight gain.

[llamaimperative]

Interesting because Pigouvian taxes have a long and storied history of being extremely effective while your proposed solution has... zero evidence of effectiveness?

Feel free to provide it though.

[yamazakiwi]

I don't know about you but I'm paid to sit in a chair for 12 hours a day.