I'm not sure I follow. So you failed to measure software productivity in lines of code, therefore it follows that "There's No Such Thing as Software Productivity"? Don't you think that giving up after n=1 attempts at measuring software productivity might be a tad too fast to draw a generalized claim of impossibility? I might argue the real lesson learned is "Lines of Code are Not a Measure of Productivity in an Isolated, Toy Example".
I suspect this sort of thing gets promulgated because it kind of massages our ego, like yes, they can measure other sorts of productivity, but not ours, oh no, we're too complex and intelligent, there's no way to measure the deep sorts of work that we do! Which, yes, OK, we're not exactly bricklayers, but surely, if you had to, you could do better.
> it kind of massages our ego, like yes, they can measure other sorts of productivity, but not ours, oh no, we're too complex and intelligent, there's no way to measure the deep sorts of work that we do! Which, yes, OK, we're not exactly bricklayers, but surely, if you had to, you could do better.
Productivity is not a cut-n-dry stat for any kind of knowledge work.
For an admin, we could say they were more productive if they handled more cases than last month. But this does not account for tricky cases or ambiguous cases, which might have taken 2x time to sort out but on rote numbers it looks they were less productive.
For us, there are no specific goals(except arbitrary imaginary deadlines by clueless management and sprint points) to correctly measure productivity. A junior engineer may spend 4h each day blasting out many lines of codes, a mid/senior may spend more hours in reviews or meetings. A 5 line PR with test coverage is faster to review than a 800+ LOC PR with additional tests and have significant risk of breaking something, so review number is also not a good indicator. I need to coordinate with min. 12 people to get any new credentials or access to specific env owned by another team, which is not countable as productive but unavoidable. How about that garbage meeting where I was just spending time yawning because some new tech lead who believes that a modular monolith system is better if it was rewritten as event based. Productivity measurement is hard.
To take your envy(I sense it on the quoted remark) to another place, think about how you go about measuring productivity of a CEO, PO, PM, Scrum Master, Agilist/Agile-Specialist etc?
> Don't you think that giving up after n=1 attempts at measuring software productivity might be a tad too fast to draw a generalized claim of impossibility?
Software developers should look at anyone claiming they can measure software productivity as a snake oil salesman.
We have seen hundreds of attempts over the years and they have all "failed". More accurately they all have large error bars and biases.
Researchers can and should continue looking into how to measure software development productivity. It is likely over the next few decades we will start to understand how to measure it appropriately.
Bricklayers have measures that are usable by people who know little to nothing about the profession who are incapable of doing the work. This is what people want. An objective measure that can be applied by people functionally incapable of actually doing the work.
Wherein the work isn't repeating existing work no such measure should be expected to exist.
Any creative work is going to suffer from the same problem.
If you asked a brick layer to develop a better workflow for his fellows to work more effectively in a particular sitiation it would be the same. Are you going to measure words per minute?
> "Lines of Code are Not a Measure of Productivity in an Isolated, Toy Example"
Calling this phenomenon a toy example is a bit out of touch. I've seen this every single day of my 25 year career. Value is produced by solving problems, not writing code. The solution with fewer lines of code, fewer new abstractions, lower complexity (yes, complexity IS objective and quantifiable) is invariably the best solution. Solutions that involve no code at all are the gold standard.
Adding/subtracting the right code produces value. But adding the wrong code decreases value. The logic of "productivity as code" contains a fatal flaw - it ignores this and assumes all code is right. Reality: everything hinges on the right vs wrong distinction which is inherently subjective. Code is too often a net liability - you must account for the risk!
By contrast, the "productivity as solving problems" approach is entirely objective. You can observe the problem, test hypotheses about the cause, and measure the situation after the intervention. A well stated problem has no ambiguity.
I don't see any support whatsover for the "productivity as code" idea. It's empirically false and lacks logical consistency.
The text gives an example to the core problem, and to argue differently requires thinking around it.
In practice. I’ve seen many attempts at measuring productivity, but once you dig into them, you see they are just abstraction mechanisms above something that is similar to lines of code.
I have yet to see an idea that sidesteps the core issue described in this post. Also, it applies to many types of work, and software is not unique in any way.
Spoiler: they can't do that either. How do you measure the productivity of a bridge engineer designing a new suspension bridge? Number of struts placed on the blueprint? Even with more manual labor, it's very hard. Who's the most productive out of these three:
1. A carpenter who builds a house from a blueprint in 6 weeks. It collapses after 3 years.
2. A carpenter who builds a house from the same blueprint in 12 weeks. It stays up, but has visible defects that affect its value.
3. A carpenter who builds a house from the same blueprint in 20 weeks. It stays up for over a century and eventually becomes a historical landmark due to its lasting beauty and careful construction.
Function point analysis works well enough for measuring software productivity in most domains, provided that quality is held constant. Like other software productivity metrics it's only meaningful at the level of a complete product team and worse than useless for evaluating individual team members.
So you can measure productivity with a reasonable level of accuracy and consistency, but then what? For most organizations it's not actionable so calculating that metric ends up as another form of waste.
I think people get hung up on wanting to collapse developer productivity into a single dimension, usually for stack-ranking purposes. This, I think, is always going to punish good engineers and reward bad ones to some degree.
Measuring developer productivity should, in my opinion, have one dimension for speed, one for quality, and one for user impact. LOC can be fine as a measurement for speed, you just don’t want to look at it in isolation. You would want to also measure, for example, escape rate and usage for the features the developer worked on, and be willing to change or refine these if circumstances require it.
You also need to look for different profiles based on the developer’s level of seniority. A senior dev probably shouldn’t be writing as much code as a contributor, but their user impact should be high, and escape rate low. Analyzing differences between teams is important, as well. A team that has a lot of escapes or little user impact probably has issues that need management attention, and may not have anything at all to do with individual developer productivity or ability.
In brief, the numbers are there to help you make better management decisions, not to relieve you of having to make them.
This is not an isolated toy example, it's reductio ad absurdum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum) - and until today I haven't seen a way to measure software productivity (might also apply to other knowledge work) that is resistant to that...
I agree. I know from looking at a story that if Alice picks it up it’ll take her about a day and be decent quality, but if Bob picks it up it’ll take him about a week and be worse quality. And I know that this will be pretty consistent week-in, week-out.
Developer productivity exists and I am totally comfortable describing Alice as being more productive than Bob. The fact that there isn’t a good, generic way to distill this into particular values does not mean that the phenomenon doesn’t exist.
We’ve all worked with Alice and Bobs. Claiming there’s no such thing as developer productivity is denying what we’ve all experienced. We aren’t special snowflakes whose work is beyond the ken of mortal men. Our work has value and sometimes we produce a lot of value in a particular time period and sometimes we product a little. This is productivity.
You certainly did fail to see the idea being conveyed by a simple, but poignant anecdote. If this is all you have to say, I might argue the real ego being massaged is your own; by yourself.
You can say this about any discipline. The root of the issue is that productivity for productivity's sake is meaningless, and it makes no sense to measure productivity as a general property when outputs vary.
A tire factory has a distinct, singular goal: produce tires. It does this continually. Productivity is meaningful, but only in relation to a target that is typically specified by externalities (e.g. amount of demand)
A software company is usually not in the business of producing consumable commodities so this kind of measurement does not make sense. It can make sense to measure productivity during a period for delivering a particular piece of software within a given time bound, but once it's delivered, productivity becomes meaningless. You always need to understand productivity in relation to some purpose and I don't know how these knuckleheads who think this abstract idea is basically like a concrete measurable essence, like mass, or liquid, got leadership positions.
Seems to me you’re talking about measuring software. Once we pick a measure though, we can calculate output/input (productivity).
Imagine two people tasked with producing the same software, or software satisfying the same requirements or test suite. What would you call the person who produces it faster? More productive?
Measuring software in financial terms or lines of code might not be the right measurement of software in all situations, but surely we can measure time and cost to produce software or software that satisfies equivalent requirements.
> I would argue that what good software developers do is remove problems. The opposite, in fact, of production
But something is being produced - it is version 2.0 of the software. This is an artifact that is then shipped to users or deployed to a server. Peter’s solution fixed the issue and did not (seemingly) create further maintenance burden, which would have taken attention away from other tasks, i.e. reduced future productivity.
I agree that metrics for programmer productivity are often useless (e.g. using lines of code is a bad idea for obvious reasons), but it seems silly to claim that the entire concept of productivity does not apply to the production of software.
Silly and convenient. No one takes the claim that you can’t measure software productivity seriously and everyone simultaneously agrees that simple scalar metrics often fail to show the big picture in any and all disciplines.
The rest is just usual software guy hubris and lack of awareness of the discipline.
Let's say that you have two runners running the same marathon. The first one, Frank, sprints at full speed and eventually tires out and slows down. The second runner, Peter, takes a nap first and then finishes the marathon at the exact same time. Which of these two runners was faster in the race? The answer is: It doesn't matter. And therefore there is no such thing as running speed.
There is such a thing as productivity in programming. If you could measure it it would likely be some combination of peer review and an analysis of the impact implemented features and fixes had. Some companies actually have programmers rate each other. I don't know how well it works and I think it can lead to perverse scenarios. But you can come up with metrics that are positively correlated with productivity.
>It's a ratio of inputs to outputs.. even in the example the inputs and outputs are measurable.
So more lines of code is better!
Um, we know this doesn't work that way as a good measure.
This is like comparing algorithms that do the same thing to algorithms that do different things. You're not going to get good valid comparisons. Metrics for one thing may not work at all for another.
Yeah, the comments on the post already said it all. First Isaac says
> You seem to be playing a definition word game. [...] Obviously productivity does approximate business value in a very meaningful way when it is defined in terms of delivered business value.
Then the author responds
> Martin asserts "any true measure of software development productivity must be based on delivered business value". I agree, and I propose there is no such thing. We're better off dropping metaphors altogether and just talking about what programmers do: Solve problems.
So I guess the author wants to replace the term "software productivity" with something like "problem-solving productivity, measured in terms of business value"...? Kind of silly IMO, but to each his own.
It complains, but doesn't offer a solution. It simply criticizes and says "all engineers cannot and thusly should not be measured".
The ironic thing is, the blog post is implicitly measuring by not explicitly measuring. The measurement is the bug ticket itself and whatever value attached to it.
But to this end, I generally agree. There are qualitative and quantitative measurements. Quantitative is the value of the ticket commonly ascribed by the team (scrum? agile? whatever). Qualitative should come up in review.
Qualitative is SO HARD. Top down? Team 360? Mixed? But it must be undertaken and refined by the team at each level of the org. Otherwise you will run into the exact situation described by the blog post and you won't know how to judge left from right, good from bad. Maybe the blog post's example isn't that great, too much information is missing to make a solid judgement, but you need to decide who to reward via promotion, annual raises and who to reprimand and who to not change.
But still, all systems are terrible, but you must pick one less it be picked for you.
Isn't this whole debate a repeat of the old talking point about what is value? Labour theory of value, that kind of thing?
This is simply never going to end if carried on along the lines of this article, or along the lines of most of the comments here.
There's no way to objectively and reasonably put a value on something.
All we have is a theory of subjective value, which does a bit of handwaving about utility and works out some ways where we can come to a price, regardless of the fact that the values in peoples' heads are subjective.
Thus the distinction between knowledge work and "tangible work" like bricklaying is actually a moot point. Yes, you can measure "productivity" of bricklaying in metres per day, but ultimately you care about value, not amounts of wall.
The arguments about one guy definitely being more productive than another are similar. One person values speed, another values maintenance costs downstream. It is subjective what ought to be more important.
In the scenario described in the article, Peter and Paul both achieve the same outcome in the same wall clock time. Obviously they are equivalently productive despite different working styles, by construction.
But this doesn't account for the more realistic examples of Prakash, who completely fails to deliver a working solution, or delivers half a solution, and Percy, who gets it done two weeks late. I'm pretty sure you can define a shit_done/time_elapsed productivity metric for those two guys that is worse than that of Peter and Paul.
Maybe I am a cynic but I suspect that some people are upvoting this because the framing makes them feel OK about getting paid six figures to work three hours a day...
Thats why bugs and chores have 0 points per default in pivotal tracker. Thats also why there was a push to force us say "as a user i..." at the beginning of story descriptions to make sure this is something creating user value. With these guards in place i don't follow the argument that productivity is not measurable, if a team builds features that solve an expressed user need and lets even say go through a final user acceptance check, this is a productive process and it is also very measurable!
My first rule of software programming is: Work Hard to Avoid Writing Code
— Code is habitat for bugs; more code equals more bugs, and interactions between separate parts of code can harbor even more "interesting" varieties.
— Code takes time to run. Any NoOp is faster than even your best hand-tuned assembly module.
Obviously, this is not absolute in any sense — it breaks down as soon as you need the system to actually do something, at which point you must write some code. But it should be the minimal amount to get the job done, and nothing more.
Obligatory car analogy: While doing some amateur sportscar racing, a coach asked me
"What are the things you do that slow the car down?".
I thought for a moment and started saying "when I start into a corner, if I do a bit too much...",
he interrupted saying "NO, no, what are the BIG things you do that slow the car down?".
"Oh, like braking and turning and lifting off the throttle?".
"Right. So what that means is that you should always avoid doing those things. Obviously, you will certainly have to so some of them as soon as you approach the end of the front straight after the start, but make sure you understand your car, the track, and your skills to the point where you do only the absolute minimum."
Both the software and sportscar versions are deceptively simple — they take a LOT more thinking than it seems at first glance. And that thinking is totally worth it.
Solving problems is productivity. That also means, solving them in a way that the solution doesn’t spawn new problems down the road, which is why we should follow the
best practices. I can’t say whether deleting 100 lines is better than adding 1K lines, because before passing that judgement I would need to see what exactly those 100 and 1K lines are. OP is arguing too black and white IMO, and draws the conclusion before I‘m sold on the premise.
Output is a weak proxy for impact. But it’s the one that makes intuitive sense to people. Doesn’t make it right or useful. I’m sure you all can envision a parable about your subfield of expertise that showcases how a seemingly light touch has a huge positive impact.
It's straight up impossible. Best we can do is observe and attempt to measure proxies.
Take hypothetical situation: VPs A & B debate a business decision. Let's say A wins the argument and their solution leads to a revenue increase of $10M, and let's say we can confidently state that this is the outcome driven primarily by them winning the argument. Is the impact a net growth in business of $10M? In a sense, yes; but in some other sense, perhaps if they went with B's solution, the revenue growth would have been $15M? There's probably no way to know for sure unless you try both approaches, which is often impossible...
So if you have a developer who writes no code and closes no tickets, who essentially does nothing except come to meetings, they are just as productive as a developer who writes some code and closes some tickets? Obviously there is a difference there. Negative code is still doing something as well. Back in the 90s we used Personal Software Process from the SEI, and we measured lines added, deleted, and changed. (as well as defects removed and added)
It becomes clear that simple quantity of code and tickets is not enough- but it's also not nothing. Part of what is missing is quality and assessments of task complexity. Part of what is missing is the other parts of the jobs, like design and code reviews.
I don't think it's hopeless, and can at least be used to look into why some people don't seem to make much at all.
You could always look at things in a more abstract way ;)
From one point of view, the users of the software are supposed to enjoy so much of a productivity increase that it's not supposed to matter if the coders are as productive as they could be or not.
Give or take a few hundred percent at least.
I realize that most people who've been to business school still aren't going to develop the needed acumen to handle a situation like this.
Too many times the only training retained is a knee-jerk over-reaction to a fraction of a percent :\
Ever see one of these "leaders" have a cow and it was as stupid as it could have possibly been?
I'm confident there are still some natural leaders that can thrive without worrying about every ounce of nose to the grindstone for their staff.
Asking a software engineer to be more productive is akin to asking a mechanical engineer to be more productive. What does that end up looking like? More useless blueprints? It turns out when you ask software engineers to just crank out code, you just get lots of code.
Productivity in economics refers to how many units of output you can generate with a given amount of input, it doesn't take into account quality, usefulness, etc. Complaining "lines-of-code is not a sensical productivity measure" is too kind to the concept of productivity.
Using productivity as a metric leads to the same nonsequitur stuff in many many fields.
It works somewhat for industrial output when you're working with commodities. Or it can work in some more fields as an ancillary measure if you pair it with some other quality, customer satisfaction, outcomes etc measure. But usually you don't want to maximize work while getting good outcomes, you just want the good outcomes.
Good productivity is about being able to do all tasks as planned. That includes the management, as its task is to attribute tasks. And whoever creates tasks. And whoever defines the objectives those tasks should answer to.
The difficulty of measuring productivity is particularly felt by senior developers. They save time and effort in ways that are non-obvious, which might be measured by dependencies that were not added, design patterns that were rejected, or processes that they pushed back on. Just like with living things, unchecked growth is unhealthy for an organism but the actions required are difficult to measure. One could start an attempt with a counter-factual narrative, but this does not map cleanly to KPIs.
Ok, but ironically the article does explain by a comparison of two alternatives just how to measure productivity—-solving problems most efficiently (least amount of maintainable code).
You can very well at least count the problems that were solved (or deleted) you can also probably measure the value those solutions have in revenue or another metric.
It's still true that measuring lines of code, time spent coding, commits or anything else is at best a proxy of productivity. It's also true that without any code changes problems more often than not don't get solved or we at least can't call the activity software development.
I do appreciate the little coda at the end - nice that the author was self-aware enough to realize where the cruft was and cut it (and courteous to the reader!)
Time spent on "incidental complexity" (new features, key fixes, performance) versus time spent on "accidental complexity" (anything and everything else).
Easy metric to understand, easy metric to teach, just remember that it applies to teams and not individuals.
And yet somehow, software developers are doing something that's worth paying them a salary. And it's not always impossible to tell if someone's being held back at a lower salary band than they should be, or was promoted into a salary band that's higher than they're able to keep up with.
Yeah, these complaints are always so duplicitous. Somehow, it’s impossible to measure programmer productivity when it’s time for accountability or professional standards, but not when it’s time to assign annual bonuses.
Wholeheartedly agree. SWEs are not factory workers. They don't punch in at 6am, put on their uniforms, make sure they meet their daily "lines of code" quota before clocking out at 10pm. We should not measure software productivity the same way we measure ball bearings production.
Using lines of code to track productivity is absurd (do people really believe it or is it just a strawman at this point?). I'm reminded of that midwit meme where a junior has very few lines of code written because they don't know the code base well enough, the midwit writes up an whole framework, and the senior engineer has a net negative lines of code contribution.
Theres also a fundamental difference between creating and maintaining code. Something like 10 guys wrote visicalc. Does that mean they were contributing millions of dollars in profit per hours? What about the maintainance to keep it going? Bug fixes? Patches? On call infra guys? What about opportunity cost of putting engineers on deadend projects?
My point is tracking productivity in software dev - maybe all knowledge work for that matter - is complicated. Maybe that's why there's so much "busywork" (emails, slack, tickets, meetings, etc). Everyone wants to look productive but no one knows what it means
"Put another way, productivity has no applicability as a metric in software.
"How much did we create today?" is not a relevant question to ask. Even if it
could be measured, productivity in software does not approximate business value
in any meaningful way. This is because software development is not an activity
that necessarily produces anything.
This is ridiculous, irrelevant, and wrong. Of course software development produces things. It produces software.
Which of these two developers was more "productive" today? The answer is: It doesn't
matter. What matters the that Peter solved the problem, while simultaneously reducing
long term maintenance costs for the team. Frank also solved the problem, but he
increased maintenance costs by producing code, and so (all other things being equal)
his solution is inferior. To call Peter more "productive" is to torture the metaphor
beyond any possible point of utility.
Ohhhhhhhhh. I get it. The author doesn't know what the word productivity means.
Productivity does not mean "increases business value while decreasing maintenance costs [and having no net negative impact in any way]". It doesn't even mean "solving a problem".
Productivity just means "to make something", or more specifically the rate at which something is made. That's all. You can make 10x more of something, and it can be garbage quality, but you did make it, and you did make more of it, so your productivity increased.
If you produce 10x more grain than you did yesterday, you are more productive. The grain might now be full of heavy metals, pesticides and toxins. But you did in fact produce more grain. If you were trying to measure productivity of usable, healthy, high-quality grain, that is a different measurement than just productivity of grain. You may assume everybody knows what you mean when you say "productive", but you'd be wrong.
Strawman argument. It would have been (semi) interesting if the title was "Software productivity can't be measured by lines of code" (but already very eloquently stated in https://folklore.org/Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.html ).
And yet … there are some engineers who manage to solve hard problems to get something new working and debug it, however long it takes, and many others who don’t and/or can’t.
johnfn|1 year ago
I suspect this sort of thing gets promulgated because it kind of massages our ego, like yes, they can measure other sorts of productivity, but not ours, oh no, we're too complex and intelligent, there's no way to measure the deep sorts of work that we do! Which, yes, OK, we're not exactly bricklayers, but surely, if you had to, you could do better.
n_ary|1 year ago
Productivity is not a cut-n-dry stat for any kind of knowledge work.
For an admin, we could say they were more productive if they handled more cases than last month. But this does not account for tricky cases or ambiguous cases, which might have taken 2x time to sort out but on rote numbers it looks they were less productive.
For us, there are no specific goals(except arbitrary imaginary deadlines by clueless management and sprint points) to correctly measure productivity. A junior engineer may spend 4h each day blasting out many lines of codes, a mid/senior may spend more hours in reviews or meetings. A 5 line PR with test coverage is faster to review than a 800+ LOC PR with additional tests and have significant risk of breaking something, so review number is also not a good indicator. I need to coordinate with min. 12 people to get any new credentials or access to specific env owned by another team, which is not countable as productive but unavoidable. How about that garbage meeting where I was just spending time yawning because some new tech lead who believes that a modular monolith system is better if it was rewritten as event based. Productivity measurement is hard.
To take your envy(I sense it on the quoted remark) to another place, think about how you go about measuring productivity of a CEO, PO, PM, Scrum Master, Agilist/Agile-Specialist etc?
WgaqPdNr7PGLGVW|1 year ago
Software developers should look at anyone claiming they can measure software productivity as a snake oil salesman.
We have seen hundreds of attempts over the years and they have all "failed". More accurately they all have large error bars and biases.
Researchers can and should continue looking into how to measure software development productivity. It is likely over the next few decades we will start to understand how to measure it appropriately.
michaelmrose|1 year ago
Wherein the work isn't repeating existing work no such measure should be expected to exist.
Any creative work is going to suffer from the same problem.
If you asked a brick layer to develop a better workflow for his fellows to work more effectively in a particular sitiation it would be the same. Are you going to measure words per minute?
perrygeo|1 year ago
Calling this phenomenon a toy example is a bit out of touch. I've seen this every single day of my 25 year career. Value is produced by solving problems, not writing code. The solution with fewer lines of code, fewer new abstractions, lower complexity (yes, complexity IS objective and quantifiable) is invariably the best solution. Solutions that involve no code at all are the gold standard.
Adding/subtracting the right code produces value. But adding the wrong code decreases value. The logic of "productivity as code" contains a fatal flaw - it ignores this and assumes all code is right. Reality: everything hinges on the right vs wrong distinction which is inherently subjective. Code is too often a net liability - you must account for the risk!
By contrast, the "productivity as solving problems" approach is entirely objective. You can observe the problem, test hypotheses about the cause, and measure the situation after the intervention. A well stated problem has no ambiguity.
I don't see any support whatsover for the "productivity as code" idea. It's empirically false and lacks logical consistency.
strulovich|1 year ago
The text gives an example to the core problem, and to argue differently requires thinking around it.
In practice. I’ve seen many attempts at measuring productivity, but once you dig into them, you see they are just abstraction mechanisms above something that is similar to lines of code.
I have yet to see an idea that sidesteps the core issue described in this post. Also, it applies to many types of work, and software is not unique in any way.
feoren|1 year ago
Spoiler: they can't do that either. How do you measure the productivity of a bridge engineer designing a new suspension bridge? Number of struts placed on the blueprint? Even with more manual labor, it's very hard. Who's the most productive out of these three:
1. A carpenter who builds a house from a blueprint in 6 weeks. It collapses after 3 years.
2. A carpenter who builds a house from the same blueprint in 12 weeks. It stays up, but has visible defects that affect its value.
3. A carpenter who builds a house from the same blueprint in 20 weeks. It stays up for over a century and eventually becomes a historical landmark due to its lasting beauty and careful construction.
Which one was more productive?
nradov|1 year ago
https://doi.ieeecomputersociety.org/10.1109/32.44364
So you can measure productivity with a reasonable level of accuracy and consistency, but then what? For most organizations it's not actionable so calculating that metric ends up as another form of waste.
EarthBlues|1 year ago
Measuring developer productivity should, in my opinion, have one dimension for speed, one for quality, and one for user impact. LOC can be fine as a measurement for speed, you just don’t want to look at it in isolation. You would want to also measure, for example, escape rate and usage for the features the developer worked on, and be willing to change or refine these if circumstances require it.
You also need to look for different profiles based on the developer’s level of seniority. A senior dev probably shouldn’t be writing as much code as a contributor, but their user impact should be high, and escape rate low. Analyzing differences between teams is important, as well. A team that has a lot of escapes or little user impact probably has issues that need management attention, and may not have anything at all to do with individual developer productivity or ability.
In brief, the numbers are there to help you make better management decisions, not to relieve you of having to make them.
rob74|1 year ago
JimDabell|1 year ago
Developer productivity exists and I am totally comfortable describing Alice as being more productive than Bob. The fact that there isn’t a good, generic way to distill this into particular values does not mean that the phenomenon doesn’t exist.
We’ve all worked with Alice and Bobs. Claiming there’s no such thing as developer productivity is denying what we’ve all experienced. We aren’t special snowflakes whose work is beyond the ken of mortal men. Our work has value and sometimes we produce a lot of value in a particular time period and sometimes we product a little. This is productivity.
fumeux_fume|1 year ago
voidhorse|1 year ago
A tire factory has a distinct, singular goal: produce tires. It does this continually. Productivity is meaningful, but only in relation to a target that is typically specified by externalities (e.g. amount of demand)
A software company is usually not in the business of producing consumable commodities so this kind of measurement does not make sense. It can make sense to measure productivity during a period for delivering a particular piece of software within a given time bound, but once it's delivered, productivity becomes meaningless. You always need to understand productivity in relation to some purpose and I don't know how these knuckleheads who think this abstract idea is basically like a concrete measurable essence, like mass, or liquid, got leadership positions.
thuanao|1 year ago
Imagine two people tasked with producing the same software, or software satisfying the same requirements or test suite. What would you call the person who produces it faster? More productive?
Measuring software in financial terms or lines of code might not be the right measurement of software in all situations, but surely we can measure time and cost to produce software or software that satisfies equivalent requirements.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
Buttons840|1 year ago
csb6|1 year ago
But something is being produced - it is version 2.0 of the software. This is an artifact that is then shipped to users or deployed to a server. Peter’s solution fixed the issue and did not (seemingly) create further maintenance burden, which would have taken attention away from other tasks, i.e. reduced future productivity.
I agree that metrics for programmer productivity are often useless (e.g. using lines of code is a bad idea for obvious reasons), but it seems silly to claim that the entire concept of productivity does not apply to the production of software.
foobiekr|1 year ago
The rest is just usual software guy hubris and lack of awareness of the discipline.
impure|1 year ago
There is such a thing as productivity in programming. If you could measure it it would likely be some combination of peer review and an analysis of the impact implemented features and fixes had. Some companies actually have programmers rate each other. I don't know how well it works and I think it can lead to perverse scenarios. But you can come up with metrics that are positively correlated with productivity.
robertlagrant|1 year ago
rootedbox|1 year ago
The only thing this article gets at is that engineers may not know how to calculate their own productivity; but it doesn't means it's not calculable.
halfcat|1 year ago
But reality is never that clear cut. How’s the ratio look when:
- Peter goes to the park and the breakthrough doesn’t come?
- Or it comes 3 weeks later?
- Or he deletes 100 lines of code and introduces a new bug?
pixl97|1 year ago
So more lines of code is better!
Um, we know this doesn't work that way as a good measure.
This is like comparing algorithms that do the same thing to algorithms that do different things. You're not going to get good valid comparisons. Metrics for one thing may not work at all for another.
dools|1 year ago
Because it also means:
"cause (a particular result or situation) to happen or exist."
default-kramer|1 year ago
> You seem to be playing a definition word game. [...] Obviously productivity does approximate business value in a very meaningful way when it is defined in terms of delivered business value.
Then the author responds
> Martin asserts "any true measure of software development productivity must be based on delivered business value". I agree, and I propose there is no such thing. We're better off dropping metaphors altogether and just talking about what programmers do: Solve problems.
So I guess the author wants to replace the term "software productivity" with something like "problem-solving productivity, measured in terms of business value"...? Kind of silly IMO, but to each his own.
irjustin|1 year ago
It complains, but doesn't offer a solution. It simply criticizes and says "all engineers cannot and thusly should not be measured".
The ironic thing is, the blog post is implicitly measuring by not explicitly measuring. The measurement is the bug ticket itself and whatever value attached to it.
But to this end, I generally agree. There are qualitative and quantitative measurements. Quantitative is the value of the ticket commonly ascribed by the team (scrum? agile? whatever). Qualitative should come up in review.
Qualitative is SO HARD. Top down? Team 360? Mixed? But it must be undertaken and refined by the team at each level of the org. Otherwise you will run into the exact situation described by the blog post and you won't know how to judge left from right, good from bad. Maybe the blog post's example isn't that great, too much information is missing to make a solid judgement, but you need to decide who to reward via promotion, annual raises and who to reprimand and who to not change.
But still, all systems are terrible, but you must pick one less it be picked for you.
fcantournet|1 year ago
It's how we sent rockets to the moon, it seemed to work ok.
lordnacho|1 year ago
This is simply never going to end if carried on along the lines of this article, or along the lines of most of the comments here.
There's no way to objectively and reasonably put a value on something.
All we have is a theory of subjective value, which does a bit of handwaving about utility and works out some ways where we can come to a price, regardless of the fact that the values in peoples' heads are subjective.
Thus the distinction between knowledge work and "tangible work" like bricklaying is actually a moot point. Yes, you can measure "productivity" of bricklaying in metres per day, but ultimately you care about value, not amounts of wall.
The arguments about one guy definitely being more productive than another are similar. One person values speed, another values maintenance costs downstream. It is subjective what ought to be more important.
pjs_|1 year ago
But this doesn't account for the more realistic examples of Prakash, who completely fails to deliver a working solution, or delivers half a solution, and Percy, who gets it done two weeks late. I'm pretty sure you can define a shit_done/time_elapsed productivity metric for those two guys that is worse than that of Peter and Paul.
Maybe I am a cynic but I suspect that some people are upvoting this because the framing makes them feel OK about getting paid six figures to work three hours a day...
jFriedensreich|1 year ago
toss1|1 year ago
My first rule of software programming is: Work Hard to Avoid Writing Code
— Code is habitat for bugs; more code equals more bugs, and interactions between separate parts of code can harbor even more "interesting" varieties.
— Code takes time to run. Any NoOp is faster than even your best hand-tuned assembly module.
Obviously, this is not absolute in any sense — it breaks down as soon as you need the system to actually do something, at which point you must write some code. But it should be the minimal amount to get the job done, and nothing more.
Obligatory car analogy: While doing some amateur sportscar racing, a coach asked me
"What are the things you do that slow the car down?".
I thought for a moment and started saying "when I start into a corner, if I do a bit too much...",
he interrupted saying "NO, no, what are the BIG things you do that slow the car down?".
"Oh, like braking and turning and lifting off the throttle?".
"Right. So what that means is that you should always avoid doing those things. Obviously, you will certainly have to so some of them as soon as you approach the end of the front straight after the start, but make sure you understand your car, the track, and your skills to the point where you do only the absolute minimum."
Both the software and sportscar versions are deceptively simple — they take a LOT more thinking than it seems at first glance. And that thinking is totally worth it.
manmal|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
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cushychicken|1 year ago
It is staggeringly hard to measure.
Output is a weak proxy for impact. But it’s the one that makes intuitive sense to people. Doesn’t make it right or useful. I’m sure you all can envision a parable about your subfield of expertise that showcases how a seemingly light touch has a huge positive impact.
virgilp|1 year ago
It's straight up impossible. Best we can do is observe and attempt to measure proxies.
Take hypothetical situation: VPs A & B debate a business decision. Let's say A wins the argument and their solution leads to a revenue increase of $10M, and let's say we can confidently state that this is the outcome driven primarily by them winning the argument. Is the impact a net growth in business of $10M? In a sense, yes; but in some other sense, perhaps if they went with B's solution, the revenue growth would have been $15M? There's probably no way to know for sure unless you try both approaches, which is often impossible...
mattmcknight|1 year ago
It becomes clear that simple quantity of code and tickets is not enough- but it's also not nothing. Part of what is missing is quality and assessments of task complexity. Part of what is missing is the other parts of the jobs, like design and code reviews.
I don't think it's hopeless, and can at least be used to look into why some people don't seem to make much at all.
fuzzfactor|1 year ago
From one point of view, the users of the software are supposed to enjoy so much of a productivity increase that it's not supposed to matter if the coders are as productive as they could be or not.
Give or take a few hundred percent at least.
I realize that most people who've been to business school still aren't going to develop the needed acumen to handle a situation like this.
Too many times the only training retained is a knee-jerk over-reaction to a fraction of a percent :\
Ever see one of these "leaders" have a cow and it was as stupid as it could have possibly been?
I'm confident there are still some natural leaders that can thrive without worrying about every ounce of nose to the grindstone for their staff.
Some things you just can't fix.
whoisthemachine|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
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fulafel|1 year ago
Using productivity as a metric leads to the same nonsequitur stuff in many many fields.
It works somewhat for industrial output when you're working with commodities. Or it can work in some more fields as an ancillary measure if you pair it with some other quality, customer satisfaction, outcomes etc measure. But usually you don't want to maximize work while getting good outcomes, you just want the good outcomes.
wpwpwpw|1 year ago
musicale|1 year ago
jes5199|1 year ago
antupis|1 year ago
simpaticoder|1 year ago
robwwilliams|1 year ago
jascha_eng|1 year ago
It's still true that measuring lines of code, time spent coding, commits or anything else is at best a proxy of productivity. It's also true that without any code changes problems more often than not don't get solved or we at least can't call the activity software development.
mprast|1 year ago
sanitycheck|1 year ago
jschrf|1 year ago
Easy metric to understand, easy metric to teach, just remember that it applies to teams and not individuals.
See: Out of the Tar Pit.
popcorncowboy|1 year ago
tbrownaw|1 year ago
Analemma_|1 year ago
liontwist|1 year ago
eacapeisfutuile|1 year ago
akst|1 year ago
timeforcomputer|1 year ago
revskill|1 year ago
wcfrobert|1 year ago
Using lines of code to track productivity is absurd (do people really believe it or is it just a strawman at this point?). I'm reminded of that midwit meme where a junior has very few lines of code written because they don't know the code base well enough, the midwit writes up an whole framework, and the senior engineer has a net negative lines of code contribution.
Theres also a fundamental difference between creating and maintaining code. Something like 10 guys wrote visicalc. Does that mean they were contributing millions of dollars in profit per hours? What about the maintainance to keep it going? Bug fixes? Patches? On call infra guys? What about opportunity cost of putting engineers on deadend projects?
My point is tracking productivity in software dev - maybe all knowledge work for that matter - is complicated. Maybe that's why there's so much "busywork" (emails, slack, tickets, meetings, etc). Everyone wants to look productive but no one knows what it means
0xbadcafebee|1 year ago
Productivity does not mean "increases business value while decreasing maintenance costs [and having no net negative impact in any way]". It doesn't even mean "solving a problem".
Productivity just means "to make something", or more specifically the rate at which something is made. That's all. You can make 10x more of something, and it can be garbage quality, but you did make it, and you did make more of it, so your productivity increased.
If you produce 10x more grain than you did yesterday, you are more productive. The grain might now be full of heavy metals, pesticides and toxins. But you did in fact produce more grain. If you were trying to measure productivity of usable, healthy, high-quality grain, that is a different measurement than just productivity of grain. You may assume everybody knows what you mean when you say "productive", but you'd be wrong.
fermigier|1 year ago
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