I run a WordPress agency and I'm absolutely horrified by all of this. It's not cutting through to our clients yet, but building on WordPress suddenly feels incredibly risky when one person can throw their toys out of the pram - the pineapple checkbox is just fucking ridiculous - and derail an entire ecosystem. I really wish there was some kind of mechanism to cut Matt entirely out of WordPress because he deserves to be completely ostracised.
Planning to set up a new customer-facing website next year, and there is 0.0% chance that it will be based on WordPress, even though several of our existing websites are WP.
I wish he had someone who he trusted who could help him get therapy. So many people have benefited from his project but now anyone with a business is going to ask whether he’s about to do something wild, which is a tragic end for such a popular open source project.
I’ve been chatting to my partners about this, and we aren’t planning to deploy anything net new on WordPress indefinitely.
In one respect it’s a shame to give Matt that power. On the other hand, I can’t control that he’s showing his ass, and I’m not risking my business or client deliverables on an unstable ecosystem.
This is just a play to pretend that WordPress.org is run by volunteers when in truth it's entirely run by Automattic. If it was actually ran by volunteers, he couldn't make any of it stop... because people volunteer their time without being told what to do.
I can't wait for him to lose millions of dollars for a hissy fit. It's going to be delicious.
Except the injunction was against .com, not the .org
Part of the case is that he is muddying the water on purpose and the separation in two entities is fake, and actions like this may backfire in a big way (and I'm not even talking about the taxes aspect of it at the end).
Again, I doubt any lawyer with any once of competency validated this move, let alone write it publicly like this that it's because of the legal case and WP Engine. That's very dumb. What are the lawyers supposed to say when the case will be reviewed ? Nothing to do with the case ? Reasons unrelated to WP Engine ? Their client put it in writing without even being asked to.
> If it was actually ran by volunteers, he couldn't make any of it stop... because people volunteer their time without being told what to do.
...this doesn't really follow. Just because someone is a volunteer for an organization doesn't mean the people at the head of that organization have no control over what they do. As a library volunteer, for instance, I can't just take all the books off the shelves and start building forts out of them (unless the library board is into that sort of thing).
He can't force them to show up and do things he tells them that they don't want to do, but he absolutely could stop all operations, including those run by volunteers.
Damn, reading all this makes me feel terrible. I wonder what goes on in somebody’s mind to make them self-sabotage their lives like Matt has over the past couple of weeks.
It’s not about success or failure, it’s about investing your ego so deeply into your business that morality and sanity end up seeming like reasonable currencies to spend as a last resort to viewing yourself as a failure. He is the Matt in the company name Auto-Matt-ic, so of course he’s taking it poorly. There are serious downsides to Cult of Personality meets Cult of Infinite Annual Growth.
Honestly, though, the weirdest thing to me about all of this is that corporations already behave like Matt every day, yet when a human starts doing so, we consider involuntarily removing them from society. Perhaps we ought to be less forgiving of his behaviors from the non-humans, too.
He's made his millions. He could leave wordpress completely and have a great rest-of-life. In fact, he probably should.
I knew him when he was working out of CNET's basement on 2nd st in SF, doing the initial commercialization of wordpress. I honestly don't see anything inconsistent in his current behavior with who he was back then.
My working theory is that investors are pulling up ladders now that interest rates are VC-unprofitable, and so either he finds a way to increase growth in profit y-o-y or they bail and let him crash like TypePad did years ago. (Except TypePad had paying customers, so their bandwidth bills weren’t anywhere near the looming threat WP is presumably facing.)
IANAL but if this is execution of a court order it would be CoC if it counts as failure to follow orders to include false claims. I don't know if a judge can charge CoC for disrespect of the court when not actually in it. If an ongoing case, might get a warning to remove contravening commentary and only a CoC on failure to do so.
I'm confused why this statement stood out to you. Isn't that exactly what the court ordered? WP Engine could no longer be denied access to wordpress.org services, and thus he is now legally compelled to provide them with the services of wordpress.org.
Does he really believe he can convince people that the Matt Mullenweg who owns wordpress.com is a different Matt Mullenweg from the Matt Mullenweg who owns wordpress.org?
He was here saying his lawyer validated everything he was saying when anyone with any little amount of experience with lawyers and B2B legal case could immediately tell no actual decent lawyer would have validated any of that. And what he said here on HN ended up being used against him in the injuction ...
So either he stopped listening to the people around him (including lawyer in a legal case), or the people around him are chosen based on their ability to say yes rather than be useful.
I don't know about the ownership of Automattic to know if there is a board not doing its job either or if they can't do anything anyway.
And ultimately the legal cases "doesn't matter" grand scale, but the damage he is doing to public perception is immense. There are a bazillion marketing agencies out there being affected by his emotionnal breakdown, so if WP Engine were to put themselves in the middle as a separate, "safe" provider they might even benefit even more from the situation. People don't like it when you touch their wallet.
Been surrounding himself with yes men for years. I mean he literally said “commit to my ideas or leave with a half year of severance” and a lot of people took him up on the offer
Why would anyone do an intervention, when it neither benefits nor profits them to do it? Let the man break down as much as he desires. The law will eventually catch up; not to mention that the good will, if there was ever any, is but all gone.
> Defendants [Matt's side] counter that a bond of $1.6 million is appropriate. Opp. at 32. They assert that “the continued maintenance and operation of the Website incurs an estimated $800,000.00 in administrative, server and developer costs per year[,]” and that allowing WPEngine to access the developer resources of the Website permits WPEngine to benefit from the distribution of its products on the Website[,] which “carries with it a separate value.”
> [...]
>In reply, WPEngine argues that if the court is inclined to require a bond, “it should be a de minimus amount, not wordpress.org’s entire budget for two years.”
> [...]
> Under these circumstances, the Court finds that any harm to Defendants resulting from the issuance of preliminary injunctive relief is unlikely, as it merely requires them to revert to business as usual as of September 20, 2024. Accordingly, the Court declines to require WPEngine to post a bond.
I was in the process of setting up a simple Wordpress site for my wife’s business, to replace the Adobe portfolio she is currently using… so thanks, I guess?
He timed the initial meltdown perfectly, because it was just before the domains I'd transferred to WordPress.com's registrar when Google Domains got sold were up for renewal. So the net effect there was that Matt bought me a free year of domain hosting, and drove me away just in time for me to not start paying him.
Why is it a conflict at all? Does modifying the software go against the license? They don't have to follow Matt's philosophy. If Matt want to control the use he should have encoded it in the license. Isn't this a classical case of wrongly chosen license and assuming others
agree with you on unstated things.
I mean, if anything this sort of thing surely has to be pushing people towards WPEngine, rather than the service run by the guy who is visibly losing it?
> As you may have heard, I’m legally compelled to provide free labor and services to WP Engine thanks to the success of their expensive lawyers, so in order to avoid bothering the court I will say that none of the above applies to WP Engine, so if they need to bypass any of the above please just have your high-priced attorneys talk to my high-priced attorneys and we’ll arrange access, or just reach out directly to me on Slack and I’ll fix things for you.
> I hope to find the time, energy, and money to reopen all of this sometime in the new year. Right now much of the time I would spend making WordPress better is being taken up defending against WP Engine’s legal attacks. Their attacks are against Automattic, but also me individually as the owner of WordPress.org, which means if they win I can be personally liable for millions of dollars of damages.
> If you would like to fund legal attacks against me, I would encourage you to sign up for WP Engine services, they have great plans and pricing starting at $50/mo and scaling all the way up to $2,000/mo. If not, you can use literally any other web host in the world that isn’t suing me and is offering promotions and discounts for switching away from WP Engine.
This post should be named "Holiday Breakdown" rather than "Holiday Break". In particular, one thing stood out to me:
> I hope to find the time, energy, and money to reopen all of this sometime in the new year.
He can't prevent WP Engine from getting access to Automattic services, so he acts out his revenge on the rest of the world instead?
> thanks to the success of their expensive lawyers
A man worth hundreds of millions of dollars crying poverty while throwing a months-long temper tantrum. Hilarious if you don't have any stakes at play.
> If you would like to fund legal attacks against me, I would encourage you to sign up for WP Engine services, they have great plans and pricing starting at $50/mo and scaling all the way up to $2,000/mo.
I wouldn't say it's revenge, but this meant to cause a stir, so that the few people who don't know about this unfortunate legal battle will hear about it. I wouldn't be surprised if he was so delusional that he thinks this will gain him and his web of companies more sympathy.
He slaps the WordPress community in the face, out of nowhere, then he points at WP Engine, and says: "Isn't it a shame that these a*holes made me slap you... again?".
I'm just speculating in this whole comment, but this is how I interpret this current chapter of the drama.
> He can't prevent WP Engine from getting access to Automattic services, so he acts out his revenge on the rest of the world instead?
Not a fan of Mullenweg either, but let's be realistic. For anyone who isn't completely detached from reality, dealing with lawsuits is draining, emotionally and mentally.
It's easy to point fingers and assume motives, but unless you're in the trenches, it's hard to truly know what's going on in someone's head. Given the circumstances, his decision to take a break isn't exactly out of the ordinary.
Most people would probably do the same if they were in his shoes.
I know it isn't necessarily hacker news standard, but I greatly appreciate when submitters summarize the actual content rather than post vague titles like "What's Next" or "The Real Story" or whatever.
It's not really editorializing, since that means adding opinions. The HN title is currently a factual summary of the situation, without any particular flavoring. It's not "Matt throws a tantrum, takes toys and goes home" or anything like that.
In cases like this where the original post title is pretty useless, I'm in favor of expanding it a bit.
I think views are mostly uniform around here. Matt had a few valid points but they are overall meritless. WPE would have been nice to contribute more, but they are absolutely not required to. Rug-pulling an open-source project and making defamation like this is a very dangerous example, and as we will see, also illegal. Would be interested in your arguments, I haven't read much if any in his support.
It couldn't matter less whose "side" you are on is kind of the point.
You could like Matt and think he's basically right about freeloaders, yet you would still be horrified and absolutely powerless as you watch him shred his once-whole community into halves, then quarters, then eighths as he doubles down and doubles down some more...
If you run a business on open source, you have to expect that some actors will contribute less than you would like. It is the price to pay for the advantages open source provides (contributions, widespread adoption etc).
The matter is that this "freeloading" is subjective as the GPL license does not really place any contribution requirements. Matt says it is about trademarks but the court stated TMs were not violated either. Dura lex sed lex, he will have to deal with it.
The preamble of the GPLV2 begins with:
"The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. "
I don't think Matt should ever be required to provide the live services of wordpress.org, but as for WP Engine, the license is supposed to be free for them and that's pretty clear.
frereubu|1 year ago
semi-extrinsic|1 year ago
acdha|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
TheNewsIsHere|1 year ago
I’ve been chatting to my partners about this, and we aren’t planning to deploy anything net new on WordPress indefinitely.
In one respect it’s a shame to give Matt that power. On the other hand, I can’t control that he’s showing his ass, and I’m not risking my business or client deliverables on an unstable ecosystem.
anonnon|1 year ago
[deleted]
pluc|1 year ago
I can't wait for him to lose millions of dollars for a hissy fit. It's going to be delicious.
JumpCrisscross|1 year ago
It's run entirely by Mullenweg. The Board is clearly unable to have a big-boy conversation.
nolok|1 year ago
Part of the case is that he is muddying the water on purpose and the separation in two entities is fake, and actions like this may backfire in a big way (and I'm not even talking about the taxes aspect of it at the end).
Again, I doubt any lawyer with any once of competency validated this move, let alone write it publicly like this that it's because of the legal case and WP Engine. That's very dumb. What are the lawyers supposed to say when the case will be reviewed ? Nothing to do with the case ? Reasons unrelated to WP Engine ? Their client put it in writing without even being asked to.
danaris|1 year ago
> If it was actually ran by volunteers, he couldn't make any of it stop... because people volunteer their time without being told what to do.
...this doesn't really follow. Just because someone is a volunteer for an organization doesn't mean the people at the head of that organization have no control over what they do. As a library volunteer, for instance, I can't just take all the books off the shelves and start building forts out of them (unless the library board is into that sort of thing).
He can't force them to show up and do things he tells them that they don't want to do, but he absolutely could stop all operations, including those run by volunteers.
deepfriedchokes|1 year ago
Let’s not take pleasure in someone destroying their life because they don’t have the support they need.
varun_chopra|1 year ago
altairprime|1 year ago
Honestly, though, the weirdest thing to me about all of this is that corporations already behave like Matt every day, yet when a human starts doing so, we consider involuntarily removing them from society. Perhaps we ought to be less forgiving of his behaviors from the non-humans, too.
smallerfish|1 year ago
He's made his millions. He could leave wordpress completely and have a great rest-of-life. In fact, he probably should.
I knew him when he was working out of CNET's basement on 2nd st in SF, doing the initial commercialization of wordpress. I honestly don't see anything inconsistent in his current behavior with who he was back then.
altairprime|1 year ago
Brian_K_White|1 year ago
Can a court sue a person for lying/libel about the court itself?
Now I'm imagining like how doctors and psychiatrists need to go to other doctors and psychiatrists for themselves.
Normally if you lie about me we both go to a court, but if you lie about the court, where does the court go?
Fluorescence|1 year ago
IANAL but if this is execution of a court order it would be CoC if it counts as failure to follow orders to include false claims. I don't know if a judge can charge CoC for disrespect of the court when not actually in it. If an ongoing case, might get a warning to remove contravening commentary and only a CoC on failure to do so.
jorams|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
Zealotux|1 year ago
Money truly can't buy everything.
ffsm8|1 year ago
xnx|1 year ago
josefresco|1 year ago
notfooled|1 year ago
They even look the same.
johannes1234321|1 year ago
nolok|1 year ago
daenney|1 year ago
tanepiper|1 year ago
nolok|1 year ago
So either he stopped listening to the people around him (including lawyer in a legal case), or the people around him are chosen based on their ability to say yes rather than be useful.
I don't know about the ownership of Automattic to know if there is a board not doing its job either or if they can't do anything anyway.
And ultimately the legal cases "doesn't matter" grand scale, but the damage he is doing to public perception is immense. There are a bazillion marketing agencies out there being affected by his emotionnal breakdown, so if WP Engine were to put themselves in the middle as a separate, "safe" provider they might even benefit even more from the situation. People don't like it when you touch their wallet.
anon7000|1 year ago
chii|1 year ago
bookofjoe|1 year ago
kotaKat|1 year ago
[deleted]
exsomet|1 year ago
Didn’t the court order have a whole section about WP Engine covering the cost of providing the required services?
Scion9066|1 year ago
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69221176/64/wpengine-in...
> Defendants [Matt's side] counter that a bond of $1.6 million is appropriate. Opp. at 32. They assert that “the continued maintenance and operation of the Website incurs an estimated $800,000.00 in administrative, server and developer costs per year[,]” and that allowing WPEngine to access the developer resources of the Website permits WPEngine to benefit from the distribution of its products on the Website[,] which “carries with it a separate value.”
> [...]
>In reply, WPEngine argues that if the court is inclined to require a bond, “it should be a de minimus amount, not wordpress.org’s entire budget for two years.”
> [...]
> Under these circumstances, the Court finds that any harm to Defendants resulting from the issuance of preliminary injunctive relief is unlikely, as it merely requires them to revert to business as usual as of September 20, 2024. Accordingly, the Court declines to require WPEngine to post a bond.
Gud|1 year ago
I was in the process of setting up a simple Wordpress site for my wife’s business, to replace the Adobe portfolio she is currently using… so thanks, I guess?
kemayo|1 year ago
eonmist|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
CMThF|1 year ago
rsynnott|1 year ago
ochronus|1 year ago
TheRealNGenius|1 year ago
[deleted]
phoe-krk|1 year ago
> I hope to find the time, energy, and money to reopen all of this sometime in the new year. Right now much of the time I would spend making WordPress better is being taken up defending against WP Engine’s legal attacks. Their attacks are against Automattic, but also me individually as the owner of WordPress.org, which means if they win I can be personally liable for millions of dollars of damages.
> If you would like to fund legal attacks against me, I would encourage you to sign up for WP Engine services, they have great plans and pricing starting at $50/mo and scaling all the way up to $2,000/mo. If not, you can use literally any other web host in the world that isn’t suing me and is offering promotions and discounts for switching away from WP Engine.
This post should be named "Holiday Breakdown" rather than "Holiday Break". In particular, one thing stood out to me:
> I hope to find the time, energy, and money to reopen all of this sometime in the new year.
He can't prevent WP Engine from getting access to Automattic services, so he acts out his revenge on the rest of the world instead?
JumpCrisscross|1 year ago
A man worth hundreds of millions of dollars crying poverty while throwing a months-long temper tantrum. Hilarious if you don't have any stakes at play.
drcongo|1 year ago
Actually tempted.
serial_dev|1 year ago
He slaps the WordPress community in the face, out of nowhere, then he points at WP Engine, and says: "Isn't it a shame that these a*holes made me slap you... again?".
I'm just speculating in this whole comment, but this is how I interpret this current chapter of the drama.
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
MyFedora|1 year ago
Not a fan of Mullenweg either, but let's be realistic. For anyone who isn't completely detached from reality, dealing with lawsuits is draining, emotionally and mentally.
It's easy to point fingers and assume motives, but unless you're in the trenches, it's hard to truly know what's going on in someone's head. Given the circumstances, his decision to take a break isn't exactly out of the ordinary.
Most people would probably do the same if they were in his shoes.
hulitu|1 year ago
If sanctions work so well for other countries, why wouldn't they for WP Engine ? /s
dools|1 year ago
[deleted]
itsdrewmiller|1 year ago
kemayo|1 year ago
In cases like this where the original post title is pretty useless, I'm in favor of expanding it a bit.
utopicwork|1 year ago
[deleted]
e40|1 year ago
gustavorg|1 year ago
poisonborz|1 year ago
conartist6|1 year ago
You could like Matt and think he's basically right about freeloaders, yet you would still be horrified and absolutely powerless as you watch him shred his once-whole community into halves, then quarters, then eighths as he doubles down and doubles down some more...
jcarrano|1 year ago
The matter is that this "freeloading" is subjective as the GPL license does not really place any contribution requirements. Matt says it is about trademarks but the court stated TMs were not violated either. Dura lex sed lex, he will have to deal with it.
Sebb767|1 year ago
nperez|1 year ago
I don't think Matt should ever be required to provide the live services of wordpress.org, but as for WP Engine, the license is supposed to be free for them and that's pretty clear.
ChocolateGod|1 year ago