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Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

53 points| genwin | 13 years ago

See http://i.imgur.com/cGtm5.png. I'm not the question's author; I recently searched for this question, specifically pros/cons. Seems nowadays that about 5% of the questions on SO I look up and are perfectly legitimate to me are found to be locked, with a warning to others to knock it off. This is up from ~0% when I started using the site. Every forum I've loved eventually gets lock-happy mods. What does HN think? Am I the unreasonable one? I don't see how this question is unworthy according to the FAQ that SO refers to.

70 comments

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[+] dbecker|13 years ago|reply
StackOverflow seems to think that these types of questions cause the community to sink to a lower level of discourse. I'd be inclined to disagree, except that the quality of responses their remains the highest I've seen on the internet. So, they appear to know what they are doing.

Quora is happy to host this type of question. Quora responses aren't usually as well-informed as SO responses... but I don't find that a compelling argument for SO to allow these questions.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
Thanks. To me it's simply a matter of whether the question is on-topic for programming. If so, don't lock it for being off-topic. It seems so simple, especially when the question gets 400+ net votes and 50+ responses. They should let their users decide, with their votes, whether a question is off-topic.

SO is good, but it could be much better without so many locked on-topic questions. I don't want to ask a question there, even if it's clearly not a duplicate, with lock-happy mods there. I don't like having my time wasted.

[+] sedev|13 years ago|reply
I call Betteridge's Law on this. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_Law_of_Headlines ]

Stack Overflow has a fairly specific rubric for judging questions, and a central part of it is the requirement that they have a single verifiably correct answer. The example question does not, and it runs afoul of the guidelines in multiple other ways. The example question is something for a conventional discussion board or mailing list - it's not a good Stack Overflow question.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
In my experience there's rarely a single verifiable correct answer for a programming question that one can't easily find the answer to without asking (outside of SO).

Also, whereas you're like the fourth person here to say the questions must have a single answer, that requirement is not called out in the SO guidelines at http://stackoverflow.com/faq. The closest I see there is "You should only ask practical, answerable questions". A question asking for pros/cons of storing images in a database (vs. links to files) meets that criterion in my book.

[+] Spooky23|13 years ago|reply
I think they made the right call on this example -- the whole point of SO is to get specific answers to specific questions. This question is vague and without the context that a reasonable person would need to give a specific answer.

There are plenty of examples of good questions being closed because they are perceived as generating too much discussion (esp. on the "programmers" se site). IMO, you've given us an example of SO moderation working.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
Please elaborate. If I want to know the pros/cons of storing images in a database, vs. (say) storing only the links to images in the database, what more specific question should I look for? How is that question too general or vague? Apparently at least 400 people thought it was reasonable, than thought it was unreasonable. 50+ people thought it was reasonable enough to respond to.
[+] LocalPCGuy|13 years ago|reply
To the vast majority of the people using StackOverflow, it is a site for getting information about programming. The mods and superusers may know that it is a site for getting specific 1-to-1 answers to questions, but I'll guarantee that the average user browsing the site does not know that. You have to click to the FAQs to find that out, and many people will not do that. Even if you go to the About page, you see this: "Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free. Free to ask questions, free to answer questions..." No mention of the types of questions that are acceptable.

The above plus SO's popularity (and prominence in search engine results) are the very reasons I find the moderation a bit over the top. IMO, it should be up to the community, not a handful of mods to decide which questions are valuable and appropriate. Some questions, while they don't have a specific answer, are extremely valuable to gather opinions, particularly for those who don't have as much experience in a given subject.

So yes, I find the moderation disturbing and over-zealous, but will continue to put up with it since it is the best resource for finding quick answers to questions.

[+] lumberjack|13 years ago|reply
It's mentioned the first time you post a question. It's also mentioned every time a subjective question is locked by a moderator. Heck, they even have some sort of real time NLP that detects and warns you if you try using a subjective title.
[+] icebraining|13 years ago|reply
The mods are elected by the community, though.
[+] phwd|13 years ago|reply
This is an old topic that was discussed in many different questions on meta.stackoverflow.com. All questions such as these have been given a special archive status where the question is locked, voting is removed and they are popped off the question list.

That lock-happy mod is the one of many fighting to keep these questions somewhere for people like you who push these silly conspiracy theories.

Stop it. It's annoying.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
This topic isn't about the age of the SO question. It's about whether the SO mods calling such questions invalid and locking them is ruining SO. The SO mod says it's locked because it's not a good, on-topic question. I don't see how the mod fights to keep the question somewhere, by locking it and calling it an off-topic question.
[+] Shog9|13 years ago|reply
You might like some data. See: http://stackoverflow.com/annotated-posts?tab=locked&filt...

1900 locked questions, out of which just over 1700 are locked because they were merged into duplicates, or migrated to other Stack Exchange sites.

< 200 locked questions out of 3.3 million doesn't seem so bad.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
That's great info. If accurate I must be unlucky to hit so many locked questions. I just scrolled through all 38 pages but didn't see the question I referred to in the OP.
[+] j45|13 years ago|reply
I noticed the same and I'm not sure if there's a commentary as to why this trend has continued to increase.

Programming isn't a syntax only problem and has many steps before, and after it that are relevant in software engineering.

Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach. To me, that may exacerbate the issues of poor software because people are only searching for a means to the ends instead of understanding why to do things a certain way.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
> Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach.

With the 400+ vote count for that question, and 50+ people taking the time to reply, I say yes indeed they are. It is definitely a programming question in my book, one whose answers could save me & others a lot of work/time.

[+] Flimm|13 years ago|reply
I, for one, am happy with StackOverflow's moderation.
[+] foxhop|13 years ago|reply
I left stack overflow about a year ago when they banned my account for a week for spamming. I posted a similar answer to a few similar question (like 3 honest) and they banned me. I was so outraged I quit the site completely.

That being said I thought about building a site to compete, but stackoverflow basically owns the market. I have no way of collecting users like they do.

[+] CamperBob2|13 years ago|reply
Stackoverflow took their market directly out of the hands of expertsexchange. They're a lot better than expertsexchange in every respect I can think of offhand, but they do have weaknesses, and I agree with the submitter that one of those is the moderation culture. I'm surprised more users aren't bothered by it.

The Internet is not going to run out of space. Just as with Wikipedia, "deletionism" is inevitably an attempt to fix some other problem that could better be addressed some other way. If there's a problem with duplication of questions, that's because the UI doesn't do enough to make the older questions easier to find. (Hint: let users vote on tags, and give karma to users who surf through the suite adding good tags to existing questions.)

Marginally-offtopic questions are especially harmless; if there's a problem with those, let the users police the site by downvoting. If that isn't enough, again, it's indicative of some other problem, such as the lack of some sort of gateway between different Stack Exchange sites.

Ultimately, the mere fact that a site like stackoverflow needs third-party moderation means there is room for improvement at the design level. It may seem that stackoverflow is the craigslist of Q&A sites, but I don't think so. It will be easier to dislodge than Facebook, I think.

[+] viraptor|13 years ago|reply
Just curious - what was your username? I'd like to see the answers.
[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
If they keep it up you'll have a ready & sizable market.
[+] freditup|13 years ago|reply
Moderating any online community is extremely difficult. Rules are generally guidelines and not always set in stone. So, this leaves things up to the discretion of moderators. It can be quite difficult to determine if something is or is not within rules. Was this locking a mistake? Probably, but one question locked means nothing. Moderators always have to watch out for 'rules creep' where the rules are stretched just a little bit over and over again until they are virtually non-existent.

In the SO case, can the moderators be a bit strict sometimes? Sure, in my opinion. But I don't think this is indicative of any broad problem on SO.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
Agreed, except I think it's probably indicative of a broad problem on SO (I'm seeing it too much, and I've seen other forums ruined by it). I think what happens is, a mod becomes overly sensitive to controversy (difference of opinion in the answers). Having only one way to end the controversy, they incorrectly declare the question to be off-topic.
[+] michaelt|13 years ago|reply
If you enjoyed this question about "Storing Images in DB - Yea or Nay?" posted on Nov 28 '08 at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3748/storing-images-in-db... here are some other questions you might enjoy:

Storing images on a database - Jul 1 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1071636/storing-images-on...

Save image in database? - Apr 30 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/805519/save-image-in-data...

store image in database or in a system file? - Apr 19 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/766048/store-image-in-dat...

Where should I store photos? File system or the database? - Oct 9 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1546485/where-should-i-st...

To Do or Not to Do: Store Images in a Database - May 2 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/815626/to-do-or-not-to-do...

Store images in database or on file system - Dec 28 '10 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4550197/store-images-in-d...

Store pictures as files or in the database for a web app? - Feb 18 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/561447/store-pictures-as-...

Storing a small number of images: blob or fs? - Nov 28 '08 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/325126/storing-a-small-nu...

How to store images in your filesystem - Oct 7 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/191845/how-to-store-image...

User images - database vs. filesystem storage - Feb 25 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/585224/user-images-databa...

Should I store my images in the database or folders? - Apr 3 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/713243/should-i-store-my-...

Would you store binary data in database or in file system? - Mar 19 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/662488/would-you-store-bi...

storing uploaded photos and documents - filesystem vs database blob - Jul 9 '09 - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1105429/storing-uploaded-...

I came in here prepared to write an impassioned criticism of StackOverflow's aggressive moderation, but frankly you've made me understand exactly why they do it.

[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
If the question was locked because it's a duplicate, I understand and agree with that. But it wasn't locked for being a duplicate; it was locked for being an off-topic question. I don't see how you've addressed that.
[+] lispm|13 years ago|reply
That's a extremely vague question which can't simply be answered on a Q&A site.

There are lots of other places where such questions can be discussed.

Stackoverflow is not the place to discuss all kinds of philosophical questions.

If you have a specific question, best with source code, then go ahead. But please don't make stackoverflow a copy of Hackernews, Reddit, comp.db.advocacy or similar.

I like Stackoverflow most when it can give real direct support for a practical problem.

[+] maximveksler|13 years ago|reply
2 of my favorite questions are locked:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/194812/list-of-freely-ava...

http://serverfault.com/questions/68883/linux-command-line-be...

Recently I've stumbled on question which I would be thrilled to continue the discussion on them had they not being set to "Locked". So yes, I really think SO is killing a healthy discussion from that perspective.

off-topic: In Hebrew there is a children song which in loose translation means: "It's not so pleasant to see a closed kindergarten"[1]. I guess this feeling applies to stack overflow discussions as well. It's not that fun to find an interesting question being locked.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnRCI8aLt_Q

[+] lnanek2|13 years ago|reply
Often my favorite questions get killed, like the best ways to make money on Android. I'm very interested in which ads to run, in-app payments, etc.. The mod wanted it moved to some bullshit spin off site with no traffic. ;/ The sort of cut and dry questions they do allow on the site are often just the sort of thing you can find in the documentation anyway. Not very useful. Not to mention that stupid score system encouraging people to post bullshit crappy answers even when they aren't sure.
[+] icebraining|13 years ago|reply
They have no traffic because everyone wants to shove everything onto SO.

And how does the score system encourage that? You often see people with negative score for wrong answers, how is that encouraging?

[+] metoosorta|13 years ago|reply
Well, its mods sure, and all the rest of its users.

But no, AFAICS it's a programming technique memoizer. The important questions have mostly been answered. There will be new important questions, and they will be asked and answered. But between now and then it will mostly be black noise. The color illiteracy and aspiration. Asking how to reverse a linked list?

[+] taylodl|13 years ago|reply
Yes it is. That's the simple answer to your question. The SO community has had a different "feel" lately, and I don't like it and I think the mods are something to do with it. That's a subjective statement of course. You might love it. YMMV.
[+] facorreia|13 years ago|reply
For conceptual questions like these, StackExchange has http://programmers.stackexchange.com
[+] genwin|13 years ago|reply
Thanks. Looking at both their FAQs, I see clear overlap in what's on-topic. The question in the OP seems on-topic for either site, but better for programmers.stackexchange.com.