I find it really frustrating that the NYC DOT fought their original business model in order to protect Lyft’s monopoly. I had assumed that Lyft’s monopoly was on the right to use DOT’s street space for their program (which at least makes sense), but it feels like a bike rental service operating on private property should not be the DOT’s jurisdiction.
The argument was essentially “we need to give Lyft a monopoly because that’s the only way they would invest in the system”, but the fact that Joco had a structural disadvantage (no public space) and was still willing to enter the market is a sign that we could have a competitive market without giving it all away to Lyft.
> it feels like a bike rental service operating on private property should not be the DOT’s jurisdiction.
I’m not sure I see how the private ownership of docking spaces should be relevant to DOT jurisdiction specifically. Rental car services are regulated, and owning the land housing the pickup location doesn’t avoid that probably because the vehicles are obviously used on public roadways.
I bet it's some bullshit like, "bikeshare businesses" have to display advisories on the app to tell people not to ride on the sidewalk and to use helmets.
> The Cohens thought that placing Joco’s docking stations on private property would allow them to avoid both Citi Bike’s territory and the city’s regulatory eye. They were wrong. The NYC Department of Transportation promptly sued Joco for operating a bikeshare without prior authorization from the agency, forcing the startup to pivot away from offering consumer rides toward last-mile delivery.
Land of the free, where everything not mandatory is prohibited.
It’s super sad to see the US’s ills pinned on “unrestrained capitalism” or whatever, when in reality there are more and more impediments to new businesses and new lines of business than ever before.
> Those cabinets, which Joco says are FDNY-approved, are a growing vertical for the startup, particularly in NYC where battery fires have run rampant due to unsafe charging practices, leading many buildings to ban e-bikes and e-scooters.
First off, there's no such thing as "unsafe charging practices." The chargers are completely automatic, and all ebike batteries, even the really cheap ones the couriers prefer, have battery management system boards that cut off the battery if it gets over[voltage/temperature/current].
Second, _not a single fire_ in NYC was due to an e-bike. Every single one of them was an electric scooter or "personal mobility device" ie onewheel, hoverboard, etc. But NYFD kept calling them "ebike fires" and this was not a "mistake" (see below) https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2022/04/26/app...
Third, the NYC government has a long history of hateboners for ebikes. NYPD regularly would do "raids" and confiscate e-bikes from delivery workers, which they could get back for several hundred dollars - a fine greater than nearly any motor vehicle infraction there is. It amounted to a city-government-run-mafia shakedown of some of the city's poorest residents. This is just more of the same; NYFD are purposefully lumping in e-bikes with the devices actually causing fires, to push a narrative that eBikes are dangerous.
and I'd be glad to be pointed to articles from independent sources which are impartial.
The Manhattan apartment building my son lives in suffered such a fire --- fortunately my son and his dog made it out safely, and his unit only had smoke damage, but he was out of his apartment for months of moving from one motel room to another every 30 days once his insurance kicked in.
That said, folks need to be more respectful of and careful with batteries in general --- my brother-in-law's home was damaged by a fire caused by a digital camera battery over a decade ago.
Regarding your second point, your own source says that none of the five fires -over a two day period- were not ebike fires. You’re making it sound like no ebike has ever caught fire at all. “none of the New York fires occurring April 20 and 21 involved an e-bike“
That article also says “Now, some fires certainly originate with e-bike batteries and some e-scooter batteries are probably safe.”
To your first point, there absolutely are unsafe charging practices, such as charging immediately after coming in from the cold without letting the battery warm up, which is one reason why these fires occur most often in winter.
I’m very pro ebike, but can’t just act like they don’t have these issues…
I'm a huge pedal assist e-bike fan and I use my e-bike all the time around NYC. Throttle based e-bikes used to be technically illegal in NYC until 2020 (pedal assist were not), which is what all the delivery workers still continue to use. (https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/ebikes.shtml). Do you have a citation that they continue to confiscate e-bikes?
Yeah but why? Why hassle these guys so much? The delivery bikers take cars off the streets, they are serving people who are willingly paying, and an e-bike is less likely to kill a pedestrian. From the POV of fire and police, it’s much harder to commit crimes on e-bikes, and in absolute numbers I’m confident the fire department responds more frequently to incidents with cars. It seems like a win win for everyone in the community.
I understand why it’s a culture war. It violates beliefs. But is there truly any rational basis? I understand the aesthetics of a delivery biker violating a traffic law for cars looks bad, that it pisses people off. But brother… it’s an urban environment: it’s going to be chock full of shit that pisses you off. Why this?
I don’t fully understand these kind of businesses especially in the “tech” space. I wonder if they paid for this article but I honestly don’t see the growth in these companies. They can be great businesses but not ones that would be posting in TechCrunch.
I got some "ad" vibes, but nothing specific comes to mind. Maybe more like "this is a fluff piece." Better worth the time to publish if someone is paying you.
>> life cycle of the new Segway bikes is three to five years.
...then I guess it's promptly thrown off a bridge into the river. The idea that a bicycle lasts 3 years, even with hard, year-round riding, is from the disposable tech consumer mindset. A well maintained commuter bike - not an expensive one - lasts 10+ years. These aren't really bicycles, but computerized, electric mopeds.
It's about mileage, not age. A chain is good for maybe 2000 miles - a commuter might get a year or two out of it, but a courier or serious roadie could wear it out in a matter of weeks. The same basic equation applies to wheel rims, bearings, cassettes, chainrings and (in the case of e-bikes) batteries and motor-gearbox units. If you're changing those parts often enough, eventually something will strip or seize badly enough to write off the frame. Most casual cyclists will never experience it, but an aluminium frame will inevitably succumb to fatigue cracking around the bottom bracket after a few tens of thousands of miles, no matter how well it's cared for.
Three to five years is incredibly good for a bike that's potentially being ridden all day, every day under very harsh conditions.
It seems likely that the miles put on a "commuter bike" used for commuting twice a day for 10 years are within shouting distance of the miles put on a bike used for several hours of deliveries every day for 3 years.
The company is incentivized to get the most out of their investment. If the bikes can be maintained economically by staff mechanics, they will be — and these vehicles ought to be simple enough devices for mechanics to squeeze a long life out of them.
If there's a difference, it would be in the lack of an ownership mindset by the riders: they might abuse them akin to how drivers abuse rental cars.
Rented equipment is treated like trash by an unfortunate number of renters. This is true even for things like apartments and homes. For short term rentals of cheaper goods like bikes and scooters it is far, far worse.
Once you factor in that the bikes are fully utilized, rather than ridden a few times a week, and 3-5 years actually sounds pretty good.
I am not really convinced that 3-5 years is not a reasonable useful life. You are comparing one person owner bike to an electric bike ridden throughout the day but all sorts of people. Maybe it gets trashed and maybe it gets broken down and recycled parts where possible.
The issue is that you can't repair these bikes because they all have proprietary parts that only licensed mechanics are allowed to touch. And the ebike companies are dropping like flies at the moment.
[+] [-] paulgb|1 year ago|reply
The argument was essentially “we need to give Lyft a monopoly because that’s the only way they would invest in the system”, but the fact that Joco had a structural disadvantage (no public space) and was still willing to enter the market is a sign that we could have a competitive market without giving it all away to Lyft.
[+] [-] vinay427|1 year ago|reply
I’m not sure I see how the private ownership of docking spaces should be relevant to DOT jurisdiction specifically. Rental car services are regulated, and owning the land housing the pickup location doesn’t avoid that probably because the vehicles are obviously used on public roadways.
[+] [-] asdasdsddd|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|1 year ago|reply
Land of the free, where everything not mandatory is prohibited.
It’s super sad to see the US’s ills pinned on “unrestrained capitalism” or whatever, when in reality there are more and more impediments to new businesses and new lines of business than ever before.
[+] [-] Loudergood|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] KennyBlanken|1 year ago|reply
First off, there's no such thing as "unsafe charging practices." The chargers are completely automatic, and all ebike batteries, even the really cheap ones the couriers prefer, have battery management system boards that cut off the battery if it gets over[voltage/temperature/current].
Second, _not a single fire_ in NYC was due to an e-bike. Every single one of them was an electric scooter or "personal mobility device" ie onewheel, hoverboard, etc. But NYFD kept calling them "ebike fires" and this was not a "mistake" (see below) https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2022/04/26/app...
Third, the NYC government has a long history of hateboners for ebikes. NYPD regularly would do "raids" and confiscate e-bikes from delivery workers, which they could get back for several hundred dollars - a fine greater than nearly any motor vehicle infraction there is. It amounted to a city-government-run-mafia shakedown of some of the city's poorest residents. This is just more of the same; NYFD are purposefully lumping in e-bikes with the devices actually causing fires, to push a narrative that eBikes are dangerous.
[+] [-] WillAdams|1 year ago|reply
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/E-Bikes-Recalled-Due-to-Fi...
from: https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/11/21/ebikes-fires-lithium-ion-...
There definitely needs to be better regulation/inspection:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/20/us/nyc-ebike-store-fire-lithi...
but agree that a more even-handed approach to repair is warranted:
https://nypost.com/2024/03/03/us-news/more-nyc-fires-caused-...
and I'd be glad to be pointed to articles from independent sources which are impartial.
The Manhattan apartment building my son lives in suffered such a fire --- fortunately my son and his dog made it out safely, and his unit only had smoke damage, but he was out of his apartment for months of moving from one motel room to another every 30 days once his insurance kicked in.
That said, folks need to be more respectful of and careful with batteries in general --- my brother-in-law's home was damaged by a fire caused by a digital camera battery over a decade ago.
[+] [-] throwaway38211|1 year ago|reply
That article also says “Now, some fires certainly originate with e-bike batteries and some e-scooter batteries are probably safe.”
To your first point, there absolutely are unsafe charging practices, such as charging immediately after coming in from the cold without letting the battery warm up, which is one reason why these fires occur most often in winter.
I’m very pro ebike, but can’t just act like they don’t have these issues…
[+] [-] relyks|1 year ago|reply
I'm a huge pedal assist e-bike fan and I use my e-bike all the time around NYC. Throttle based e-bikes used to be technically illegal in NYC until 2020 (pedal assist were not), which is what all the delivery workers still continue to use. (https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/ebikes.shtml). Do you have a citation that they continue to confiscate e-bikes?
[+] [-] doctorpangloss|1 year ago|reply
I understand why it’s a culture war. It violates beliefs. But is there truly any rational basis? I understand the aesthetics of a delivery biker violating a traffic law for cars looks bad, that it pisses people off. But brother… it’s an urban environment: it’s going to be chock full of shit that pisses you off. Why this?
[+] [-] ericyd|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] infecto|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mcmcmc|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] MathMonkeyMan|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] calmbonsai|1 year ago|reply
Also, TC has been beyond irrelevant for years.
Now, it's even worse. It's a negative-signal attached to all those desperate enough to use it.
[+] [-] skeeter2020|1 year ago|reply
...then I guess it's promptly thrown off a bridge into the river. The idea that a bicycle lasts 3 years, even with hard, year-round riding, is from the disposable tech consumer mindset. A well maintained commuter bike - not an expensive one - lasts 10+ years. These aren't really bicycles, but computerized, electric mopeds.
[+] [-] jdietrich|1 year ago|reply
Three to five years is incredibly good for a bike that's potentially being ridden all day, every day under very harsh conditions.
[+] [-] rectang|1 year ago|reply
The company is incentivized to get the most out of their investment. If the bikes can be maintained economically by staff mechanics, they will be — and these vehicles ought to be simple enough devices for mechanics to squeeze a long life out of them.
If there's a difference, it would be in the lack of an ownership mindset by the riders: they might abuse them akin to how drivers abuse rental cars.
[+] [-] zdragnar|1 year ago|reply
Once you factor in that the bikes are fully utilized, rather than ridden a few times a week, and 3-5 years actually sounds pretty good.
[+] [-] infecto|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] WeylandYutani|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
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[+] [-] tgsovlerkhgsel|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] RobinL|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Eugeneoregon|1 year ago|reply
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