A lot of people that are in tech because it’s a good job got pressured to make it their life. They reasonably pushed back, but the upshot was those of us that are passionate about programming as a hobby got pressured to not do it for fun.
Both things are unreasonable. You shouldn’t have to program for fun to get a job. You can be good at it as a profession only. You also should be allowed to love it as a vocation or avocation. That doesn’t make you a sucker.
I think there is some anxiety on the part of people who love code, and find the computer to be a little magic almost-thinking box that is one of the most interesting things humans have ever invented, that the boring careerists will take all the fun out of it. Somebody is willing to pay us to play with the magic box, but now these other folks have come along and they don’t even seem to enjoy the game? WTF, go away if you don’t actually like it!
But then I put on my grown-up hat and realize that there really are customer needs to be satisfied, the less enthralled do real work, and they have as much right as the rest of us get a paycheck.
Have you never considered the absolutely /terrible/ manners of showing up to a profession where other people are passionate about what they're doing, doing the best work they know how and enjoying it - and then complaining because you only want to phone it in for a paycheck?
Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work...
Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they want an easy white collar job. There are a lot of other fulfilling jobs out there! There's no reason for you to bring the standards down for everyone just so that you feel you can keep up.
It's like being back in high school again, when everyone else was complaining about being graded on a curve - and implicit was the complaint about who they were being graded against.
I'm in a non-tech job and I never quite got into a tech "career" but I've built my own tools that no SAAS offers and I spend some of my free time tweaking them and I feel proud the more I use them. Everyone in society benefits from a little DIY tech literacy, even those of us not FAANG caliber.
Personally, I avoid all side projects at home because they turn into a huge distraction for me at work. It’s hard for me not to think about them all day.
So the whole “program for fun to get a job” thing has always felt pretty dumb to me. Companies should only care about what I get done at work. What I do at home is my business.
90% agree. Someone is a sucker if they work for their employer during their personal time. If someone wants to code for their employer by day and code for themselves by night, that’s great. I just hope they get enough sleep.
I agree with all that. But software development also often seems to have a strong thread that if you don't also do this for fun, you're not really A material--in a way that really doesn't apply to other engineering disciplines.
I don't see the same sort of pushback for people who do side-projects as a hobby.
As a hypothetical employer, should I be allowed to select for people who love programming because my internal metrics say they're an awesome fit? If so, then that's where the fundamental pressure is going to come from.
So we can be on HN and sing "Oh, you do you!" but that won't relieve the fundamental source of pressure.
It helps to accept that no matter how balanced or perfect you try to make your life, you’re going to screw it up anyway, so just do what you feel like, for fun or not for fun, and don’t worry about it.
The programmer succeeding because he loves to program is a "George Washington chopping the cherry tree" kind of anecdote Silicon Valley likes to represent themselves with. Nine out of 10 times, the fun kind of programming someone is doing during their nights and weekends has zero application to their professional life. Yes doing any kind of coding is a teaching moment, but living your life outside of a computer screen offers lessons as well.
When I was a teenager and while studying at university I used to spend a lot of my spare time coding. Then after I got a job as a developer this dropped off quite quickly, opting instead to socialise and pursue other hobbies in that time.
Since becoming a manager at work less of my time is actual coding, and in the last 6 months or so I have started to code a lot more on my own projects and I'm really enjoying it. It feels like overall there is a certain desire/capacity for it, and if that is getting used up at work, so be it, if not, then it fills up outside of work hours.
Either way, each to their own. Some people would probably love to spend more time coding or on other hobbies but have other commitments like family to consider.
It's not wrong to code on nights and weekends if you like it. But there's also something to be said for developing other interests, that put your brain in a different space. You might even find that it can help with the coding. In my case, I enjoy coding and I also love hiking, and often find that when I'm stuck, an idea that gets me unstuck occurs to me when I'm out in the woods and nowhere near a computer.
I've been coding for around 45 years, the vast majority of them in a professional capacity. I still code an hour or more most evenings and at least triple that at the weekends.
I love writing software. Over the festive period I wrote a text-based double-entry bookkeeping system with balance sheets and income (p&l) statements. For no reason; I just wanted to.
And that's how it is for me. In my own time I code what I want and purely for pleasure. Sometimes it relates to work, but it is never actual work stuff.
My work-life balance has the usual family aspects, but the main thing for me is making that clear distinction on what my motivation is for what I'm working on. As long the motivation isn't for work benefit that's fine, even if the learning outcome does eventually help there.
This whole article really resonates, especially the bits about expectations for others. My main problem is that, having done so much coding (too much), its easy to identify just how long something should take (on average), and so when I see something trivial dragging on and on at work, it instantly raises a lot of questions. This happens so much that I look around at the team with nothing less than the deepest skepticism about just what folks are being paid for.
It's hard for me to "let them be", but I have to, obviously. It creates a lot of internal tension that I can't figure out how to resolve.
Not just coding but other types of technical work might benefit from not ruling this out, especially creative or innovative efforts.
It can really make a difference depending on where you stand in a project environment.
For me it was pretty easy to accept with cargo work where the ships come in at any time 24/7.
Before I started my company I had already gone the extra mile like this for employers when it really made a difference.
So I knew what I was getting into beforehand, I used to say you can run a company OK during business hours alone, but building a company may be the best use of nights & weekends depending on the circumstances.
It took some time but doing it for my own self turned out better after all.
It's not exactly a "super power" but good to have in your arsenal, plus in the right situation you could direct all your focus migrating toward having a 24/7 business that hardly ever requires "after-hours" effort after a while.
I work a remote tech job and despite taking 15 minute (or longer) breaks every couple of hours, I have come to the conclusion that sitting in front of a screen for 8+ hours a day is slowly killing both my mental and physical health. I am trying to combat it with strength training and cardio in the mornings, and spending at least some of my evenings in my garage.
This, unfortunately leaves me with very little time to do the computer and electronics-related projects I would so love to finally be working on. Also makes it just about impossible to level up my technical knowledge to further my career. I kind of dream of retiring early and finding some low-paying job that keeps me walking all day but leaves me with plenty of mental energy to come home and rock out a few hours of coding or whatever in the evening.
The most ergonomic position is the next one. I have a mouse for each hand, and a track pad, and a sit/stand desk converter, and four chairs, some with and some without arms, and monitors on arms that can be easily repositioned. I'm always adjusting something, or using a different device or chair, and I alternate between sitting and standing a couple times each day. I also have a timer to remind me to stretch and takes walks once an hour. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you can code more on nights and weekends without spending too long at the computer (in the same position).
It's about coding on things you want not things you have to do.
>There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line in the summer because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service, that would turn it into work, and then they would resign.
I have a non-coding day job and spend most of my time thinking about how to improve my projects when I get home, then code late into the night. Trying to get hired as a programmer somewhere, but part of me also worries it might exhaust me from coding on my own projects. If only I had enough spare time to build something worth monetizing while being able to pay the bills...
I was originally worried that my coding job would suck the passion out of me, but weirdly, it’s cut the other way. The banality of the work that I do for my job makes me appreciate my personal projects more, and makes me more galvanized to do coding that does bring fulfillment. I suppose this isn’t necessary desirable however, since it relies on your job being a chore.
> There is a narrative that working hard is inherently bad for your health or that long hours lead to burnout. I disagree. It's not about how many hours you put in, but about the enjoyment and quality of the work you're doing. Still some of my most favorite memories were some all-nighters I did when I was younger working on something. It wasn't even necessarily on projects that ended up meaningful or successful, but it was the act in itself. When you find joy in what you're building in the moment, work does not feel like a burden. Instead it feels exciting and exhilarating. These memories, that some might describe as unhealthy are some of my most pleasant ones.
It’s all about how you feel about it. When you enjoy it, spending nights and weekends can feel great.
- I recently had an hours-long screenshare with a MMO guild leader showing dozens of spreadsheets. I was bewildered until he said that this is the game for him. This stuff is fun. He loves it. You can love what people call "work."
- I fell into a years-long trap of, "if <activity> is not advancing my career or my family, why would it ever be worth doing?" This led to depression and terrible downwards spiraling of Five Why's of "what's the point of it all?" There's very few ways to live life wrongly. All of them are obvious.
- I just had 2 weeks off where I didn't look at a single line of code. The longest stretch in my career. I was worried I'd come back to work and feel I wasted my time off. But no, it was amazing. My kids are amazing creatures.
Thank you for sharing this—it resonates deeply with me. I share the same passion and often struggle to separate work from life because I genuinely enjoy programming. Over time, I’ve come to realize that as long as I stay connected to my family and relationships, I can find balance and even relax by doing what I love—coding. Knowing there are others who share these experiences is truly reassuring.
By the way, have you read Paul Graham's essay "A Project of One's Own" (https://paulgraham.com/own.html)? I really connected with his idea of being a "skater," and I wonder if you might relate to it as well.
I only code at night, used to grind in the weekends too but ad I get older I find other things to do then give my salaried job free work. I think 8 am to 2pm is a total waste as I remain u focused until the evening for some reason.
The thing is, I code for fun all the time, and don't enjoy coding for work often.
That disconnect is something I'm working on lately. Why do I have so much fun when it's driven by my own desire, but don't enjoy when it's driven by the companies desire.
It's not only coding.
Times ago I did the same as a woodworker/contractor. I was lucky to have a shop, where it doesn't disturb anyone, if I worked at night or on weekend.
But I know, that this time of my life was extraordinary.
I’m the type who always has a side project going. But I do sometimes wonder why we don’t expect plumbers to go home after their 8 hours and mess around with their home plumbing lab in the basement for another 2 :)
it becomes a problem when you project the coding mindset on the world outside ,trying to program people or designing ideal dolutions for utopias while clearly not interested in actual humans, more an idealized angelic version.
The main reason not to code on evenings and weekends is that your employer will own everything you do and might not allow you to do whatever you want anyway.
Depends on the state and the terms of employment you agreed to. I’ve never agreed to let an employer own anything outside of a very specific scope. And I’ve rarely had to turn down a job because of that constraint. Employers have almost always had a reasonable scope with respect to what they own to begin with or have been fine with changing the scope to be more reasonable.
x0xrx|1 year ago
Both things are unreasonable. You shouldn’t have to program for fun to get a job. You can be good at it as a profession only. You also should be allowed to love it as a vocation or avocation. That doesn’t make you a sucker.
bee_rider|1 year ago
But then I put on my grown-up hat and realize that there really are customer needs to be satisfied, the less enthralled do real work, and they have as much right as the rest of us get a paycheck.
koverstreet|1 year ago
Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work...
Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they want an easy white collar job. There are a lot of other fulfilling jobs out there! There's no reason for you to bring the standards down for everyone just so that you feel you can keep up.
It's like being back in high school again, when everyone else was complaining about being graded on a curve - and implicit was the complaint about who they were being graded against.
neither_color|1 year ago
brokencode|1 year ago
So the whole “program for fun to get a job” thing has always felt pretty dumb to me. Companies should only care about what I get done at work. What I do at home is my business.
Apreche|1 year ago
ghaff|1 year ago
I don't see the same sort of pushback for people who do side-projects as a hobby.
threatofrain|1 year ago
So we can be on HN and sing "Oh, you do you!" but that won't relieve the fundamental source of pressure.
deadbabe|1 year ago
boh|1 year ago
cph123|1 year ago
Since becoming a manager at work less of my time is actual coding, and in the last 6 months or so I have started to code a lot more on my own projects and I'm really enjoying it. It feels like overall there is a certain desire/capacity for it, and if that is getting used up at work, so be it, if not, then it fills up outside of work hours.
Either way, each to their own. Some people would probably love to spend more time coding or on other hobbies but have other commitments like family to consider.
not2b|1 year ago
kcartlidge|1 year ago
I love writing software. Over the festive period I wrote a text-based double-entry bookkeeping system with balance sheets and income (p&l) statements. For no reason; I just wanted to.
And that's how it is for me. In my own time I code what I want and purely for pleasure. Sometimes it relates to work, but it is never actual work stuff.
My work-life balance has the usual family aspects, but the main thing for me is making that clear distinction on what my motivation is for what I'm working on. As long the motivation isn't for work benefit that's fine, even if the learning outcome does eventually help there.
sibeliuss|1 year ago
It's hard for me to "let them be", but I have to, obviously. It creates a lot of internal tension that I can't figure out how to resolve.
fuzzfactor|1 year ago
Not just coding but other types of technical work might benefit from not ruling this out, especially creative or innovative efforts.
It can really make a difference depending on where you stand in a project environment.
For me it was pretty easy to accept with cargo work where the ships come in at any time 24/7.
Before I started my company I had already gone the extra mile like this for employers when it really made a difference.
So I knew what I was getting into beforehand, I used to say you can run a company OK during business hours alone, but building a company may be the best use of nights & weekends depending on the circumstances.
It took some time but doing it for my own self turned out better after all.
It's not exactly a "super power" but good to have in your arsenal, plus in the right situation you could direct all your focus migrating toward having a 24/7 business that hardly ever requires "after-hours" effort after a while.
tcoff91|1 year ago
bityard|1 year ago
This, unfortunately leaves me with very little time to do the computer and electronics-related projects I would so love to finally be working on. Also makes it just about impossible to level up my technical knowledge to further my career. I kind of dream of retiring early and finding some low-paying job that keeps me walking all day but leaves me with plenty of mental energy to come home and rock out a few hours of coding or whatever in the evening.
stronglikedan|1 year ago
htrp|1 year ago
>There are wealthy gentlemen in England who drive four-horse passenger-coaches twenty or thirty miles on a daily line in the summer because the privilege costs them considerable money; but if they were offered wages for the service, that would turn it into work, and then they would resign.
Mark Twain
hnuser123456|1 year ago
crtez|1 year ago
andrepd|1 year ago
knallfrosch|1 year ago
the_mitsuhiko|1 year ago
> There is a narrative that working hard is inherently bad for your health or that long hours lead to burnout. I disagree. It's not about how many hours you put in, but about the enjoyment and quality of the work you're doing. Still some of my most favorite memories were some all-nighters I did when I was younger working on something. It wasn't even necessarily on projects that ended up meaningful or successful, but it was the act in itself. When you find joy in what you're building in the moment, work does not feel like a burden. Instead it feels exciting and exhilarating. These memories, that some might describe as unhealthy are some of my most pleasant ones.
It’s all about how you feel about it. When you enjoy it, spending nights and weekends can feel great.
[1]: https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2024/12/26/reflecting-on-life/
Waterluvian|1 year ago
- I recently had an hours-long screenshare with a MMO guild leader showing dozens of spreadsheets. I was bewildered until he said that this is the game for him. This stuff is fun. He loves it. You can love what people call "work."
- I fell into a years-long trap of, "if <activity> is not advancing my career or my family, why would it ever be worth doing?" This led to depression and terrible downwards spiraling of Five Why's of "what's the point of it all?" There's very few ways to live life wrongly. All of them are obvious.
- I just had 2 weeks off where I didn't look at a single line of code. The longest stretch in my career. I was worried I'd come back to work and feel I wasted my time off. But no, it was amazing. My kids are amazing creatures.
jncfhnb|1 year ago
robin_reala|1 year ago
jumski|1 year ago
By the way, have you read Paul Graham's essay "A Project of One's Own" (https://paulgraham.com/own.html)? I really connected with his idea of being a "skater," and I wonder if you might relate to it as well.
psyclobe|1 year ago
AndyNemmity|1 year ago
That disconnect is something I'm working on lately. Why do I have so much fun when it's driven by my own desire, but don't enjoy when it's driven by the companies desire.
lasarkolja|1 year ago
robotburrito|1 year ago
ashoeafoot|1 year ago
lwf09|1 year ago
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black_13|1 year ago
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woketemptation|1 year ago
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mgaunard|1 year ago
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ghaff|1 year ago
recursive|1 year ago
phito|1 year ago