It's not really surprising, but the article seems to conflate raves with nightclubs, with numerous remarks about the cost of being out at a club all night and paying for things like expensive bottle service.
Raves are not clubs, and historically have never done that well in club environments. People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. Psychedelic drugs like LSD are also associated with the rave scene but are less compatible with a nightclub environment (bars, security, overgrown disco lights). People are more likely to consume psychedelics at an outdoor party or a warehouse space.
In my view what has killed raves was the declining availability of cheap accessible commercial spaces, police/administrative hostility to informal economic activity, and overcommercialization, which has tended to select for the shittiest music/DJs.
As a relatively straight-edge person, I enjoyed my first and only actual rave, but I really felt like I had to convince myself I was enjoying it compared to the people that were obviously on MDMA or whatever, especially after a few hours of basically similar tempos. Ironically, they also all burned out at a certain point and it got even less engaging as they sat on the floor and I wandered around as though I didn't get the memo.
I've been to more recent Hardstyle shows since then at less sketchy venues and that's been fun, but something maybe about the repetitiveness of non-progressive trance or whatever at the time was quite boring. Some part of me wonders what that music feels like after taking something, but I spend enough time around people over 30 who regularly take mdma, coke, K, (I know they're quite different) that it continues seeming like something I'd prefer not to introduce into my life; it seems like they kind of need it. Incidentally, I'm definitely the exception in almost any group, having not engaged in anything but weed+alcohol recreationally, and occasionally drop those for periods of time. People are generally surprised that I haven't tried psychedelics yet.
Using crackhouse laws to target rave promoters killed raves in the US: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 The RAVE act that followed formalized the gray area use of those earlier crackhouse laws.
All of the rest of what you're saying killed raves is a result of this crackdown.
In Toronto the decline of the scene in the late '90s was accelerated significantly when the city clamped down on promotors by restricting them from renting venues on city owned property. This was after gradually requiring EMTs and increased security at events after Allen Ho died in 1999. There was a huge protest at city hall, but that had no impact on the course of things. Combined with the recession and then SARS in 2003, people effectively stopped going out to larger events, although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well. However, there are still family friendly events held at Cherry Beach in the summer with people from the scene back then going on every year.
I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves. This has been the case since the only days of chicago warehouse parties up until what is now the case in berlin. Once the clubs go away, the off location parties will disappear next.
> People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening.
There is very little money for clubs to make from techno ravers, as they're not typically the ones downing alcohol; I highly doubt one can rave to music till sunrise while continually taking in alcohol at the rate at which your typical alcohol going club-goers would.
I think there is some overlap, there are some nightclubs that are much more orientated to the cheap scene, I know if I walk into a club with large areas dedicated to bottle service tables, I'm not going to have a fun time and the people will be much more obnoxious.
But there's some excellent venues here in Switzerland, and I think many are helped with arts funding and/or run as artist collectives and non profits.
100% agree. The article does not seem to be written by someonene who is particularly interested in this subject. The fact that it starts talking about what is IMO the most overrated scene ever, Berlin, says a lot.
what is the definition of a rave at this point? Large crowds of people dancing in or outdoors to techno music is still a HUGE thing. There's video of tons of them on youtube. If often put them on while working. Is it only a rave if it's illegal?
One big change is that they got better and much more organized. I go to an annual event with a few hundred of my friends and family. We rent a lodge in a national forest, set up an enormous sound system, and dance for 3 days around some very confused deer. There are food trucks and coffee bars and dozens of portapotties scattered around, plus daytime poolside sets while we swim around and listen to 100dB house.
We grayvers still like to have fun, just more comfortably. We have work next week, you know.
I’m confused. You say that you “go to” an annual event, but then you describe it at a massive private festival that you’re self organizing. Which is it?
We did that same thing for ten years in a row. Especially fun when some catastrophe happens, like a lightning strike to the house when everybody's in the garden, breaking all fuses, water pump etc. Remember we had probably three years without some crazy accident. Nobody got killed though, so all good.
> The proportion of club nights running beyond 3am fell in 12 of 15 global cities between 2014 and 2024, according to a Financial Times analysis of events on listings website Resident Advisor.
Club nights are not raves. Raves are (usually) not posted on RA. The underground scene is doing just fine.
You're right, but on the other hand, are we really expecting "Financial Times" get even get "raving" right, or knowing about the underground scene?
The article seems to be written for people who reads a newspaper with their breakfast, not for people who had yet to gone asleep while that person reads their paper.
I'm not in the club or rave scene - practically the opposite - but it astounds me that the FT thought they could draw useful conclusions about an underground scene by analyzing publicly-posted events on a site named Resident Advisor.
The definition of "rave" is in question here, what it means depends on what country you're from, and even in given countries the idea of "rave" means different things to different people.
For me it means people dancing to electronic music and most likely taking drugs too. It can mean raving in a club or a festival or on the beach in Thailand or in a forest in the UK or in a warehouse in Brooklyn, if there's electronic dance music and drugs, then it's a rave.
Here is what Claude says:
"A rave is a large dance party or festival typically featuring electronic dance music (EDM), characterized by:
Extended duration - often running late into the night or through early morning hours
Electronic music - featuring DJs playing various genres like house, techno, trance, and drum & bass
Distinctive atmosphere - using elements like elaborate light shows, lasers, fog machines, and visual projections
Communal experience - bringing together large groups of people dancing in a shared space"
I think there's a lot of nuance here. I teach DJing (house/techno mostly) and there's never been more interest in electronic music & DJing. Folks who thought I was a bit out there in high school for liking electronic & dance music, have recently all now become more interested in DJing and raving. The DJ today is continuing to grow into the modern rock-star (albeit, in terms of real $ of music money, it's no where close).
Moreover, as several commenters have pointed out there has been a big growth in festivals and awareness. Lots of people talk to me about "house music" now, whereas before it was a relatively "underground" thing.
Now, I think there's a question about whether the scale of such events have maintained the same cultural ethos as the early rave days, and that, though I'm not old enough to have participated, is likely a categorical no. There's a greater focus on 'documenting' experiences at these events rather than living it. Here's a clip of an rising group called Kienemusik [tik tok link](https://www.tiktok.com/@as.anca/video/7359750430345186593?q=...), where you can see there's more video taping than dancing. I would venture to say, we are so filled with wonder sometimes that we forget that part of experiencing awe is letting go of ego and just experiencing.
Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably.
GenZ studies have found a lower participation in "risky behavior" which late night clubbing may or not be considered.
Mobile internet & smartphones seem to be killing all forms of live in person interaction.
And finally electronic music of various forms used to be a niche, and now it's mainstream. In the 90s/00s my consumption of electronic music was mp3 downloads of BBC late night recordings. Now pop is electronic, electronic is pop, it's all on the radio, it's unavoidable.
I find it really hard to believe this and am questioning the data.
I raved back in the early 2000s and I still rave now and the popularity is absolutely booming in a way I've never seen before and in more parts of the world.
15 years ago there was zero electronic music events in Dubai, now there are huge electronic music festivals there and it's clear a ton of people at those events are taking "something" that isn't just booze. Even Saudi has had its first big EDM festivals, albeit I think they were no alcohol allowed.
EDM artists are more popular than ever and more and more of my friends are getting into EDM and going to EDM festivals like Tomorrowland, Mysteryland, ADE, etc.
With mixed results, it kind of burned the spot by virtue of being talked about in too wide an audience but I think it's also important to make it known to the mainstream that this kind of stuff is happening.
All that's needed to make a rave happen is music & speakers, scale and quality is all configurable. Humans will always find spaces to congregate: whether it's their own houses, local parks, abandoned warehouses, industrial districts, or deep in the woods.
I hope we're not losing our drive to be around eachother and dance, it's been such a integral part of my life story (as a fairly young person!) and has let me find my people.
Because the author uses Berlin as an example. As a millenial that grew up in Berlin, I just think that the hype about, what used to be alternative, mainstream clubs is flattening. Especially techno and electro clubs. They are just not as great as social media wants you think they are.
People who love the music will go their for the music and will keep going. Social media folks that go there for the drugs and epic party will lose interest, because it's not as epic as they think it is.
Apart from that other alternative clubs are just doing fine (I am going mostly to drum and bass parties). Even though they got less. But I think the club dying there was because of other reasons, not the missing audience
On the one hand millennials are getting older so it's totally reasonable to expect they wouldn't want to party into the early AM anymore.
On the other hand real raves don't happen in legal venues. I've partied in warehouses, upscale restaurants, artist studios, roller skating rinks, movie theaters, hotels, apartments. I threw parties on the lightship Nantucket (LV-112), although those were day parties. But none of these events would be factored into the financial times reporting.
Some of the evidence presented by the article is compelling but just don't think they can draw real conclusions about the state of nightlife with such a limited perspective.
I think it’s health related, as the article mentions.
>One executive in the entertainment industry said younger people were less inclined to go out raving until 6am as they were more health conscious and less frivolous with money than previous generations
This is the same generation that has 12 step skincare routines, eats only organic food, chooses to vape or zyn rather than smoke because of secondhand smoke, everyone has an Apple watch on their wrist tracking calories, etc.
If anything I’m surprised that binge drinking and going out late as survived as long as it has.
And as far as the money comment, this generation is not less frivolous there’s just less money to go around haha.
Interesting. My experience in NYC even with folks in the 20s is they prefer going out BEFORE it gets super late, with the super late nights only happening for shows (where the DJ/main act doesn't come on till 1:30 AM).
I've also anecdotally seen more day parties which might be driven by demand from the former rave crews who are aging out.
Too expensive? I see illegal dance parties in the countryside more than ever. And people drive far for them and sleep it off in the sun the next day (or so). Big bags of drugs (if you buy in bulk, drugs are those things that come with very large discounts) and wholesale energydrinks etc. So those are cheap, but I can see legal places would have issues maybe? High entry fees, super expensive drinks etc.
I'm curious where they got their data (or I should say I'm suspicious of their analysis). My cousin is a raver and she sends me Snaps of the events all the time. They're just as crowded as ever and happening just as often as a decade ago.
There was obviously a pause during COVID and a slow ramp after, but it's been back to normal for about 1.5 years now.
I love electronic music. Been listening to it for 30 years. Mostly drumbass, dubstep, some house. Groups like subfocus. I used to listen to tiesto, bt, etc.
One, I hated the term "raving". I was thought raves were finding an abandoned house, playing music and drugs. I just like the music and don't need the dance clubs or the drugs.
But with the said, I think the "club" scene has dropped off. Expensive drinks. Expensive covers. Who wants that.
Has the music droppped off? I think it kind of merged into more mainstream music.
I haven't been to a club in a long time, but I am quite confident that if there's a hell for me, it's being forced to be in a club+rave for eternity.
I've never done any kind of "party drug" [1], and I think that party drugs have to be a requirement for me to enjoy something like that (at least for someone as awkward as me). Repetitive music that's so loud it hurts, not being able to talk to people, close contact to strangers of questionable hygiene; it's hard for me to even imagine how anyone could enjoy it.
I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who are finally being honest with themselves and acknowledging that they don't actually enjoy the entire club scene. Obviously if you like it, don't let me take it away from you, but one of the best parts of reaching age 30 for me was that no one expects or wants me to go to a club with them now.
[1] The only "recreational drugs" I've ever done are alcohol and caffeine, and I haven't had alcohol in quite awhile.
It’s more alive than ever, I’d say. Just about any weekend in the Milwaukee/Chicago area has at least a couple parties. Proper underground shit. Not sure what it is, exactly, but it’s been feeling like a time portal back to the 90’s and I love it. Drop Bass Network and Chicago Redline will keep you plenty busy.
A clubbing lifestyle where you're out every weekend isn't healthy, but festivals on weekends every other month are doable. Society seems much more health aware these days due to social media and the web in general.
At least here in Germany, NIMBYs and their foot-soldiers aka team 1312 is very much to blame, next to gentrification.
Clubs in cities that have existed for decades get yeeted out of their rental contracts as there is no renter protection for commercial rental contracts - once it expires or gets terminated under the provisions of the contract (usually because some hipster shithole is willing to pay even more money), that's it. Others lose their license because people moving from the countryside can't cope with the noise and call the police all the time.
Clubs in rural areas almost don't exist anymore because of rural flight eliminating a lot of the customer base and what remains gets taken off the road by DUI enforcement.
That leaves illegal outdoor raves, and team 1312 has been aggressively beating down on these even over a decade ago when I was the tech guy for a local rave group. It's not made easier by the fact that there will always be some dumbasses dragging their minor siblings with them and other people not caring whom they sell MDMA and whatnot to, so you'll inevitably get into trouble for that as well.
[+] [-] hsuduebc2|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] anigbrowl|1 year ago|reply
Raves are not clubs, and historically have never done that well in club environments. People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. Psychedelic drugs like LSD are also associated with the rave scene but are less compatible with a nightclub environment (bars, security, overgrown disco lights). People are more likely to consume psychedelics at an outdoor party or a warehouse space.
In my view what has killed raves was the declining availability of cheap accessible commercial spaces, police/administrative hostility to informal economic activity, and overcommercialization, which has tended to select for the shittiest music/DJs.
[+] [-] brailsafe|1 year ago|reply
I've been to more recent Hardstyle shows since then at less sketchy venues and that's been fun, but something maybe about the repetitiveness of non-progressive trance or whatever at the time was quite boring. Some part of me wonders what that music feels like after taking something, but I spend enough time around people over 30 who regularly take mdma, coke, K, (I know they're quite different) that it continues seeming like something I'd prefer not to introduce into my life; it seems like they kind of need it. Incidentally, I'm definitely the exception in almost any group, having not engaged in anything but weed+alcohol recreationally, and occasionally drop those for periods of time. People are generally surprised that I haven't tried psychedelics yet.
[+] [-] ryan_lane|1 year ago|reply
All of the rest of what you're saying killed raves is a result of this crackdown.
[+] [-] bcrl|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] prettyblocks|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] HellDunkel|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] rajnathani|1 year ago|reply
> People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening.
There is very little money for clubs to make from techno ravers, as they're not typically the ones downing alcohol; I highly doubt one can rave to music till sunrise while continually taking in alcohol at the rate at which your typical alcohol going club-goers would.
[+] [-] secretsatan|1 year ago|reply
But there's some excellent venues here in Switzerland, and I think many are helped with arts funding and/or run as artist collectives and non profits.
[+] [-] matt3210|1 year ago|reply
America in a nutshell…
[+] [-] phowat|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] benno781|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] nox101|1 year ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs
There's also huge EDM and other types of events (so I guess not techno but the vibe seems related, at least to me)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk
[+] [-] Jommi|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] kstrauser|1 year ago|reply
We grayvers still like to have fun, just more comfortably. We have work next week, you know.
[+] [-] guynamedloren|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] latchkey|1 year ago|reply
If I'm thinking of the same groups you're mentioning, they were already super organized. Mostly because they've been going for decades now.
[+] [-] pimeys|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] justinator|1 year ago|reply
It was a high school gymnasium.
Didn't work out so well.
[+] [-] SequoiaHope|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] inopinatus|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] block_dagger|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] grahamj|1 year ago|reply
I left it all behind years ago but your event sounds awesome. Glad some people still keep the vibe alive.
[+] [-] KingMob|1 year ago|reply
In my corner of the woods back in the 90's, we also had the occasional "graver" (no y) who were mixing up rave and goth aesthetics.
[+] [-] polairscience|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] flocciput|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] mmanfrin|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] circlefavshape|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] FiberBundle|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] SheinhardtWigCo|1 year ago|reply
Club nights are not raves. Raves are (usually) not posted on RA. The underground scene is doing just fine.
[+] [-] diggan|1 year ago|reply
The article seems to be written for people who reads a newspaper with their breakfast, not for people who had yet to gone asleep while that person reads their paper.
[+] [-] in-pursuit|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jprete|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] saberience|1 year ago|reply
For me it means people dancing to electronic music and most likely taking drugs too. It can mean raving in a club or a festival or on the beach in Thailand or in a forest in the UK or in a warehouse in Brooklyn, if there's electronic dance music and drugs, then it's a rave.
Here is what Claude says: "A rave is a large dance party or festival typically featuring electronic dance music (EDM), characterized by: Extended duration - often running late into the night or through early morning hours Electronic music - featuring DJs playing various genres like house, techno, trance, and drum & bass Distinctive atmosphere - using elements like elaborate light shows, lasers, fog machines, and visual projections Communal experience - bringing together large groups of people dancing in a shared space"
[+] [-] devrob|1 year ago|reply
Moreover, as several commenters have pointed out there has been a big growth in festivals and awareness. Lots of people talk to me about "house music" now, whereas before it was a relatively "underground" thing.
Now, I think there's a question about whether the scale of such events have maintained the same cultural ethos as the early rave days, and that, though I'm not old enough to have participated, is likely a categorical no. There's a greater focus on 'documenting' experiences at these events rather than living it. Here's a clip of an rising group called Kienemusik [tik tok link](https://www.tiktok.com/@as.anca/video/7359750430345186593?q=...), where you can see there's more video taping than dancing. I would venture to say, we are so filled with wonder sometimes that we forget that part of experiencing awe is letting go of ego and just experiencing.
[+] [-] steveBK123|1 year ago|reply
Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably.
GenZ studies have found a lower participation in "risky behavior" which late night clubbing may or not be considered.
Mobile internet & smartphones seem to be killing all forms of live in person interaction.
And finally electronic music of various forms used to be a niche, and now it's mainstream. In the 90s/00s my consumption of electronic music was mp3 downloads of BBC late night recordings. Now pop is electronic, electronic is pop, it's all on the radio, it's unavoidable.
[+] [-] saberience|1 year ago|reply
I raved back in the early 2000s and I still rave now and the popularity is absolutely booming in a way I've never seen before and in more parts of the world.
15 years ago there was zero electronic music events in Dubai, now there are huge electronic music festivals there and it's clear a ton of people at those events are taking "something" that isn't just booze. Even Saudi has had its first big EDM festivals, albeit I think they were no alcohol allowed.
EDM artists are more popular than ever and more and more of my friends are getting into EDM and going to EDM festivals like Tomorrowland, Mysteryland, ADE, etc.
[+] [-] mjsir911|1 year ago|reply
https://www.kuow.org/stories/under-the-bridge-a-portrait-of-...
With mixed results, it kind of burned the spot by virtue of being talked about in too wide an audience but I think it's also important to make it known to the mainstream that this kind of stuff is happening.
All that's needed to make a rave happen is music & speakers, scale and quality is all configurable. Humans will always find spaces to congregate: whether it's their own houses, local parks, abandoned warehouses, industrial districts, or deep in the woods. I hope we're not losing our drive to be around eachother and dance, it's been such a integral part of my life story (as a fairly young person!) and has let me find my people.
[+] [-] dailykoder|1 year ago|reply
People who love the music will go their for the music and will keep going. Social media folks that go there for the drugs and epic party will lose interest, because it's not as epic as they think it is.
Apart from that other alternative clubs are just doing fine (I am going mostly to drum and bass parties). Even though they got less. But I think the club dying there was because of other reasons, not the missing audience
[+] [-] hmcq6|1 year ago|reply
On the other hand real raves don't happen in legal venues. I've partied in warehouses, upscale restaurants, artist studios, roller skating rinks, movie theaters, hotels, apartments. I threw parties on the lightship Nantucket (LV-112), although those were day parties. But none of these events would be factored into the financial times reporting.
Some of the evidence presented by the article is compelling but just don't think they can draw real conclusions about the state of nightlife with such a limited perspective.
[+] [-] Jorge1o1|1 year ago|reply
>One executive in the entertainment industry said younger people were less inclined to go out raving until 6am as they were more health conscious and less frivolous with money than previous generations
This is the same generation that has 12 step skincare routines, eats only organic food, chooses to vape or zyn rather than smoke because of secondhand smoke, everyone has an Apple watch on their wrist tracking calories, etc.
If anything I’m surprised that binge drinking and going out late as survived as long as it has.
And as far as the money comment, this generation is not less frivolous there’s just less money to go around haha.
[+] [-] darkwizard42|1 year ago|reply
I've also anecdotally seen more day parties which might be driven by demand from the former rave crews who are aging out.
[+] [-] anonzzzies|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jedberg|1 year ago|reply
There was obviously a pause during COVID and a slow ramp after, but it's been back to normal for about 1.5 years now.
[+] [-] berlinbrowndev|1 year ago|reply
One, I hated the term "raving". I was thought raves were finding an abandoned house, playing music and drugs. I just like the music and don't need the dance clubs or the drugs.
But with the said, I think the "club" scene has dropped off. Expensive drinks. Expensive covers. Who wants that.
Has the music droppped off? I think it kind of merged into more mainstream music.
[+] [-] tombert|1 year ago|reply
I've never done any kind of "party drug" [1], and I think that party drugs have to be a requirement for me to enjoy something like that (at least for someone as awkward as me). Repetitive music that's so loud it hurts, not being able to talk to people, close contact to strangers of questionable hygiene; it's hard for me to even imagine how anyone could enjoy it.
I suspect that there are a lot of people like me who are finally being honest with themselves and acknowledging that they don't actually enjoy the entire club scene. Obviously if you like it, don't let me take it away from you, but one of the best parts of reaching age 30 for me was that no one expects or wants me to go to a club with them now.
[1] The only "recreational drugs" I've ever done are alcohol and caffeine, and I haven't had alcohol in quite awhile.
[+] [-] bkeating|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] rramon|1 year ago|reply
A clubbing lifestyle where you're out every weekend isn't healthy, but festivals on weekends every other month are doable. Society seems much more health aware these days due to social media and the web in general.
[+] [-] mschuster91|1 year ago|reply
Clubs in cities that have existed for decades get yeeted out of their rental contracts as there is no renter protection for commercial rental contracts - once it expires or gets terminated under the provisions of the contract (usually because some hipster shithole is willing to pay even more money), that's it. Others lose their license because people moving from the countryside can't cope with the noise and call the police all the time.
Clubs in rural areas almost don't exist anymore because of rural flight eliminating a lot of the customer base and what remains gets taken off the road by DUI enforcement.
That leaves illegal outdoor raves, and team 1312 has been aggressively beating down on these even over a decade ago when I was the tech guy for a local rave group. It's not made easier by the fact that there will always be some dumbasses dragging their minor siblings with them and other people not caring whom they sell MDMA and whatnot to, so you'll inevitably get into trouble for that as well.
[+] [-] this_weekend|1 year ago|reply