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Hitler dismantled a democracy in 53 days through constitutional means

89 points| dr_dshiv | 1 year ago |theatlantic.com

86 comments

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[+] sitkack|1 year ago|reply
Side quip, the H in STEM stands for history.

If you look at the schooling of the ruling class, history is one of the most important subjects. And I am not talking about pilgrims and the Louisiana purchase. If you want to understand where you are, how you got there and where things are going there is no better way than to learn from the people before you.

One way to pique your interest is to listen to podcasts and lectures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_History

https://www.reddit.com/r/dancarlin/

https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

[+] volleyball|1 year ago|reply
The name 'hardcore history' keeps popping up now and again so I decided to do a quick Gell-man-amensia check on a topic i am somewhat familiar with it.

It seems he hasn't tackled Israel/Palestine on his podcast but so i had to make do with whatever tweets i could find :

https://xcancel.com/HardcoreHistory/status/17111815214603635...

https://xcancel.com/HardcoreHistory/status/17121572074864849...

His few tweets and replies are pro-israeli apologia (whose facade has become thinner and indefensible in the past year) with zero incorporation of the palestinian side and glaring misrepresentation and omission of facts. I am sorry but i can't trust him to speak honestly and fairly on the other parts of history i am unfamiliar with.

[+] m463|1 year ago|reply
I've always sort of thought you need some life experience for history class to really teach you well.

Honestly, I've kind of wondered why there isn't a real university for people older than 20 you could return to for decent classes on things like history, or woodworking, or health management, or exercise. Like continuing education but university level.

[+] bell-cot|1 year ago|reply
Look at some more nations, and more history.

If the people really believe in a system of government, then you don't need any words-on-paper constitutions or laws or stuff.

If the people have really lost faith in the system (generally because it repeatedly failed to meet their basic needs), then all the pieces of paper and fancy-looking buildings and robed officials in the world don't count for shit.

[+] hkpack|1 year ago|reply
> generally because it repeatedly failed to meet their basic needs

I think it is no longer relevant. How much of the needs are met is decided by the social media now.

I personally know people making life altering decisions based on the fake news. Their world is detached from the reality in such a way, that they don't believe their own eyes.

People now see a world mostly thought the screen of their phone.

[+] MrBuddyCasino|1 year ago|reply
This is true at a certain level of prosperity and bourgeois mentality. I also find it surprising how long a regime can cling to power that is hated by its population, eg North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, and even the Soviet Union. What brought the Soviet Union down was that they couldn't afford food anymore due to declining oil revenue [0], not a domestic revolution.

[0] "The Soviet Collapse: Grain and Oil By Yegor Gaidar" https://tamilnation.org/intframe/070419collapse_of_soviet_un...

[+] bamboozled|1 year ago|reply
What I think is concerning is the amount of Americans that don't trust government and think most government institutions should be smashed.

Hitler was a really smart guy, young and energetic at this time, evil yes, but he definitely had plans, not sure the USA has one right now though...

[+] llamaimperative|1 year ago|reply
Can you provide some examples for either scenario? I don’t understand this argument at all.
[+] roshin|1 year ago|reply
there were some extremely UNdemocratic things he did, like stabbing all of his political enemies. the democratic institution should have had the police stop the SA gangs that were terrorizing the unpopular people, but there wasn't enough political will to do that, until it was too late.
[+] spwa4|1 year ago|reply
What people here don't seem to realize very much is that fundamentally, every system depends on people actually doing things. That can be following the rules, that can be enforcing the rules, that can be just being helpful or polite or willing to help others.

As demonstrated by a lot of dictators, when people fail, no amount of laws, no matter how clever will protect the state. Every generation again, young people believe differently. The "overwhelming force" of the law is just people. People that can be convinced to ignore or violate the law.

I would argue that these days the police ignoring the law (due to lack of personnel and funds) is on full display in almost 100% of the world, though some places are worse than others.

[+] Arnt|1 year ago|reply
https://verfassungsblog.de/ein-volkskanzler/ is a quite readable story of how the same thing might play out now in a possible democracy. If reading it scares you, that makes two of us.

In German, I'm sure it's been translated but I link to the original.

[+] erikig|1 year ago|reply
The Google translation of the story holds up quite well and is a thrilling read even if the intricacies of German government might not be clear to the reader.
[+] magic_smoke_ee|1 year ago|reply
Maybe the US needs a bug bounty for the conjecture raised by Gödel's supposed loophole.
[+] OutOfHere|1 year ago|reply
Or it could be rewritten in a bug-proof formal system for assertions. (Think Rust but better.)
[+] cherryteastain|1 year ago|reply
Kurt Gödel, famous Austrian mathematician, was afraid that the US constitution has a flaw which makes it vulnerable to a similar seizure of power. Unfortunately, he never wrote down what it is, so we don't know what he was concerned about specifically.

Fortunately, the event most similar to the Reichstag fire - January 6th - did not in reality lead the US down that kind of path.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_Loophole

[+] llamaimperative|1 year ago|reply
There seems to be quite a few such loopholes. Another one is POTUS’s ability to suspend Congress indefinitely when there is a “disagreement” between the House and Senate as to whether they’re in recess. It’s not clear what “disagreement” means and hypothetically the courts could disagree, but even in light of that you’re talking about 1 POTUS, 1 Congressional majority leader, and a few Justices required to suspend Congress indefinitely.

(Article 2 Section 3)

[+] Fluorescence|1 year ago|reply
Jan 6th would be the Beer Hall Putsch. Notable this time round for no legal consequences for the main character.

A Reichstag Fire would be an inciting event early in the next term, committed by a member of a regime out-group, used to justify radically increasing authoritarian and prejudicial rule.

Given the events of the last few weeks, it feels like there will be plentiful opportunities if wanted.

[+] dkuntz2|1 year ago|reply
january sixth was not the reichstag fire, it was the beer hall putsch
[+] st-keller|1 year ago|reply
Why is this flagged? „How a democracy was hacked“ is not something that should be on Hacker News?
[+] hagbard_c|1 year ago|reply
For the same reason other political articles are flagged, politics is not supposed to be a significant part of the discourse on this site. While it is not possible to keep out all things political, articles like this one do not lend themselves to much else besides political mud slinging. Even though that can be an amusing pastime this is not the place for such, by decree.
[+] orwin|1 year ago|reply
I heavily dislike the article. It misses at least two points.

One, the Nazi (or rather, the nationalist coalition) was on the decline, as were the conservatives in power, and were set to loose multiple seats in the next elections. Seizing power, fast, was needed.

Two, Hitler used laws set in by the radical center and the conservatives to take power. Yes, he used violence, but the holes that allowed the takeover were set before, by judges and previous governments.

[+] mostlysimilar|1 year ago|reply
> One, the Nazi (or rather, the nationalist coalition) was on the decline, as were the conservatives in power, and were set to loose multiple seats in the next elections. Seizing power, fast, was needed.

The Republicans are going to run the US into the ground in the next couple of years. Midterm elections are 2026.

[+] sofixa|1 year ago|reply
It addresses the first point quite well, multiple times (it's even one of the first things discussed in the story, one of Hitler's coalition partners was bound to lose from elections).
[+] beej71|1 year ago|reply
I can't find the expression "den parlamentarischen Sumpf" anywhere. The article seems to imply that Hitler used it.

Does anyone have a source of him saying it or writing it?

[+] thomassmith65|1 year ago|reply
I gather some readers here are flagging this article - despite it being of general interest - because of the political innuendo? Are we not to submit posts about WWII here for the next four years?
[+] bell-cot|1 year ago|reply
I figure it's flagged for being - in current context - a shoddy smear and simplistic click-bait for folks who hate and fear Trump & Co.

(I did the 1st Comment, and was really tempted to bash The Atlantic for that. Maybe if I had, the discussion could have been positive, and the article not flagged? But given the provocative title, I'd bet not.)

[+] jgrahamc|1 year ago|reply
I flagged it because it seems far removed from HN stuff and my assumption is that this is posted as "I'm scared Trump will do something similar" and I can read about Trump stuff pretty much anywhere else. Post an article about cryptanalysis of WWII ciphers and I'll upvote it.
[+] hagbard_c|1 year ago|reply
That fully depends on the context in which those articles are posted. The last four years did not see a slew of articles on dementia, cognitive decline or reviews of Weekend at Bernie's for a reason - even though the first two are of general interest they would be seen as politically biased. Politics is supposed to be largely absent from this site, a rule which is not set in stone and seems to suffer from left-coast bias but it is part of the playbook. That some legacy media outlets now want to continue the Hitler! Hitler! Hitler! chants which played a significant part in losing the 'democrats' the presidency does not mean these articles are of 'general interest' since they are clearly aimed at linking whatever the Trump presidency says or does to their favourite scape goat.