[mmkos]

That's my problem with a lot of the literature on building successful businesses. They all seem to be offering a white glove path and don't talk about all the tactics ranging from shady to downright illegal that helped many of the biggest companies today to be where they are now.

[akudha]

When I was a kid, I read about Jack Welch and thought he was great. Later I learned of all the shenanigans he pulled, not just unethical, but illegal stuff. And the way he trampled people. Bill Gates is a respected philanthropist today, he too did all kinds of shady, ruthless stuff to get to the top. Everywhere I look, same story - Amazon, Facebook, Google... The only big company I think is okay is Costco - either they really are good or I haven't yet about their practices.

There is this podcast called Behind the bastards - in one way, it is eye opening. But it is also depressing, it does a pretty good job of shattering all our beliefs and respect for the rich and the successful.

Is it even possible today to become super successful without doing shady/unethical/illegal stuff? Everything from garden variety wage theft all the way upto buying politicians and corporate espionage?

[neves]

USA culture has this idolatry for the Rich that looks like what the aristocracy always did: my "beloved" king, the kind princess... Like the philanthropy of the robber barons that made them respectable, but when they are still alive.

I prefer the French approach to take care of aristocrats.

[codechicago277]

Aaron Greenspan created the early version of what Facebook became, and has loudly criticized the zero-sum tactics used by Zuckerberg, Gates, and other billionaires: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-legend-of-mark-zucker_b_7...

Some interesting books in this category: * Masters of Doom. It’s about John Carmack and the team that built Id Software * Einstein. By Walter Isaacson, author of the Jobs biography. Einstein’s 4 papers are one of the most unexpected, ground breaking discoveries in history * Houdini!!! Tells the story of the escape artist and magician, and exposer of psychics. * The Double Helix * Stress Test. By Tim Geithner who pulled the world out of the financial crisis * Man’s Search for Meaning. Surviving and finding meaning in a concentration camp

[ghaff]

For any successful company, you can probably find ex-employees who think that some "fat trimming" was excessive and unnecessarily cruel or that they pushed some line or another in excessive ways.

The Jack Welch case (and I'd add Mark Hurd at HP) was an example of financial engineering looking great for a time--until it wasn't.

[etc-hosts]

> There is this podcast called Behind the bastards

I know so much more now about the figures behind the rise of the fascism before the end of WW2 because of this podcast.

[buzzardbait]

Perhaps not, but I think you can be "very successful" while remaining ethical.

Most people want to be successful because success brings happiness. But there is a level of success at which happiness starts to plateau and yields diminishing returns of happiness.

[jppope]

Theres a ton of ethical wealthy people, you just have no clue who they are because they are playing a different game and don't want the spotlight.

Whats the shady ruthless stuff from Google? They've obviously started running their business differently after the easy growth went away, but I've never heard anyone be like: they made me pee in a bottle because going to the bathroom was too much time off the line.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

I think a problem is that we have to look at shady, ruthless, unethical and illegal actions as different categories, but to many people they are all the same.

Of course, you don't want to leave a trail of bodies in your wake but Life's not a bowl of cherries and taking a Pollyanna approach to business won't get you very far.

[Wohlf]

From what I hear Costco is also changing after their new CEO took over and the stock skyrocketed.

[portaouflop]

>Is it even possible today to become super successful without doing shady/unethical/illegal stuff?

No I don’t think it is - and I would argue it never was - for me it is morally reprehensible to be a millionaire.

But then again humans are complex creatures and who is without fault may throw the first stone

[theposey]

sounds cynical but I'm shifted to believing not. If you don't do it there will always be someone else who will. Not to say you should, that's a personal choice of course, but in a competitive environment there will always be someone or lots of someones who will do anything.

[jvanderbot]

Unorthodox suggestion - look at the documentaries and lit on mob tactics.

The mob is basically a corporation, held together by a charismatic CEO. In its later years, violence was (I think?) less common, so politics and deal-making became the norm. However, given the subject matter, they likely wouldn't whitewash the reality of it.

[vik0]

>Unorthodox suggestion - look at the documentaries and lit on mob tactics.

You got any documentaries and books/articles to recommend?

[gamebak]

I share your thoughts. Sometimes you just need to be at the right place, at the right time, solving the exact problem and this is troublesome, especially in this era when so much is already invented.

Maybe I just have a wrong view, but I don't know how to decouple from this.

[buzzardbait]

Success comes from hard work and perseverence.

Success comes from being at the right place at the right time.

Both of these statements can be true at the same time.

[withinboredom]

The fact that capitalism can be modeled by pure random chance only drives the point home, in my opinion. So much depends on luck...

That being said, luck can be engineered, to a degree:

- meeting people; networking

- having access to resources

- recognizing potential opportunities and taking advantage of them

That being said, I'm by no means "successful" but I'm also not a "failure" ... I win some, and I lose some.

[ttoinou]

Damn you’re right I’m tired of naïve explanations we can find in books. Wouldnt the authors be in legal trouble though ?

[diggan]

Back in the day, when authors were afraid of negative (public perception) pushback, they used to write and publish under pseudonyms.

Not sure it'd work today, everyone and their mother seems so focus on building their "personal brand" and attaching their name to everything that it seems impossible for an author to not take credit for something that would surely make big waves.

[ants_everywhere]

An interesting question is how authors of these books look for stories to turn into book. Stories traditionally have a standard arc where the hero faces a challenge but wins in the end having learned something. I'd be curious to talk to authors about how much the desire to fit this template influences the selection of what they write about.

[verisimi]

That's because the literature has a value in its own right. Like history, the message that is presented, is for the present. Reality/truth be damned. The present day operational advantage is all.

This is very cynical - but also freeing - when accepted. Do you think the yatch, billions, beautiful wife is worth your integrity? You decide.

[zie]

It's more of a, it generally wasn't illegal at the time they did those things, and of course now they want it to be illegal. It's much like pulling the rope up behind them so nobody else can climb the same ladder they did.

There is a reason you have to have licenses to braid hair, cut nails, etc(and charge for it) in many US states for instance. It's not a simple license like a food worker has to do. It's much more involved.

I mean if someone is going to mess with my hair, do a manicure or pedicure they should know the basic hygiene things much like a food worker has to do. I'm good with that. Why do they need more than that? It's not because we as a society actually care that much about a person that can't braid hair trying to charge for it. It's because all those beauticians want to limit their competition.

OK rant over for the day.

[narrator]

One of the fun things about reading Young Stalin, which is a biography of Stalin from birth to the Russian revolution, is nobody liked him in Georgia where he grew up, especially after the fall of the Soviet Union, so it was easy for the biographer to get sources to tell all the negative and horrifying details of his earlier life building and running organized crime gangs to fund the Russian revolution. Imagine the most paranoid narcissistic jerks you've ever known who also happen to be exceptionally intelligent decide to take over a country and they manage to pull it off. Fascinating stuff.