[digdigdag]

- Over 50% of the workers flew in from Taiwan to work on this plant and make these chips.

- The chips still need to fly back to Taiwan to be packaged as there are no facilities here with such a capability.

Made in america is a hard sell. But at least showing the glaring STEM field gap in the U.S. is a start to finally addressing the brain drain.

[programmertote]

The 'brain drain' (as you refer to it) stems from intelligent/motivated grads in the US for the last two decades (at least) pursuing more lucrative fields like finance and adtech (re: Google, Facebook). Or some pursue management route (attending big MBA schools and switching to management roles where they climb corporate ladder). In other words, there are not a lot of college/grad students who want to pursue traditional engineering routes in the US.

I myself was an electrical engineering (EE) major until I switched to computer science in my third (junior) year of college because like a friend of mine at the time told me, "<my name>, if you don't major in computer science, you will not be able to find a job easily after graduation". He was right. All of my former college friends in EE ended up pursuing programming jobs (a few of them now works for FAANG; I used to work for one but left a year ago due to RTO). That is why the US has no sufficient personnel to do traditional engineering jobs and we have shipped off a lot of those to foreign countries.

[ecshafer]

Everyone I know that was in EE falls into two camps basically:

1. Became web developers

2. Work in Defense or some other regulated industry that has protections from being outsourced to China

[thinkingtoilet]

It's not even brain drain, America's dominance came from the fact that for nearly a century the brightest people in the world were willing to give up everything to come here. That is no longer the case. Today's Einstein probably isn't going to immigrate here.

[rhubarbtree]

Alternate explanation: electrical engineering is actually really hard and some parts of computer science look comparatively easier. Plus coding is startups is cool, EE is still nerd as in Nerd.

[rockostrich]

Hit the nail on the head. I went to the College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering in Albany for a master's in "nanoscale engineering" which essentially boiled down to a master's in being a fab line manager. I finished the degree since it was only a 3 semester program and I was getting paid for research work, but almost immediately after chatting with alumns that went to go work at IBM/Intel/etc it was pretty clear that software engineering was a much more lucrative and less stressful career.

[binarymax]

Definitely true, as there weren’t EE jobs here. Now that we’re moving chip manufacturing back, and with programming job market being saturated, perhaps it will shift and EE will pay more due to being more in demand

[Gomer1800]

I think your explanation about large numbers of motivated students pursuing lucrative Non-STEM degrees is incomplete without mentioning the cost of an undergraduate and graduate STEM education in the USA.

The most critical shortages of STEM graduates are in roles requiring advanced degrees. Your median undergraduate education (~$40k) and median graduate education (~$60k) saddles students with approximately $100k in unforgivable student debt! Never mind the years lost that one could otherwise be working. So it’s no wonder students are motivated by the ROI of their degrees, it’s why I chose Computer Engineering over Electrical Engineering.

These are expensive STEM degrees which students on visas are all too willing to pay for a chance at a residency and a pathway to citizenship. So no wonder the majority of undergraduate and graduate STEM students are foreign born in the US. The ROI is not worth it for the debt. We don’t have enough need based scholarships available to finance the STEM graduates this country claims it needs.

[alsetmusic]

> I myself was an electrical engineering (EE) major until I switched to computer science in my third (junior) year of college because like a friend of mine at the time told me, "<my name>, if you don't major in computer science, you will not be able to find a job easily after graduation". He was right. All of my former college friends in EE ended up pursuing programming jobs (a few of them now works for FAANG; I used to work for one but left a year ago due to RTO).

Nothing against you looking out for your future, but this is exactly what I describe to people when I say the industry has changed. It used to be nerds who were very passionate. Now it’s full of people who are just doing a job.

[somethoughts]

My hot take as to the reason EE is a bit of a dead end in the US is that the options outside of the handful of primary employers are limited. It is very capital intensive to run a semiconductor fab, design chips or assemble electronics at scale. Therefore the employer has all of the leverage. The equipment and/or factory worker infrastructure comes first and the engineering teams are just a cog.

Compare that to having all the degrees of freedom as a computer science student to start up a niche mobile app or internet based niche service after working at FAANG for 5-6 years. Even AI infrastructure will eventually go down in price making niche AI first startups a possibility. In finance its the same, as a post i-banker you have the option to start a boutique fund, a niche fintech or just invest your own savings.

[intull]

Really appreciate this comment and perspective! In the larger context of immigration and brain drain in other countries, how the US also has one, but of a different kind. Ultimately, it's a loss of potential. I'd somewhat disagree with the directionality of the correlative/causal relation, though. But what can be said is that the US also experiences a knowledge drain towards plainly lucrative jobs. I'd wager that it was/is a cyclical effect that just worsened over the decades and that neither engineers moving to fintech nor low-paying engineering jobs were/are the sole reason.

[in-pursuit]

What you said seems contradictory. You open with the premise that intelligent youth go the finance / CS / MBA path instead of engineering and then say that those who do go into traditional engineering can’t find jobs. Couldn’t it be that people don’t go into engineering because there aren’t any jobs? Wouldn’t the lack of jobs explain the low salaries and thus the preference for more high paying alternatives?

[DontchaKnowit]

Your argument doesnt really make sense : there are no EE jobs in the use, therefore no one wants to pursue EE jobs, therefire there are no EE jobs.

[Xeronate]

I read the main problem with hiring chip factory workers in Arizona was the factory just didnt pay enough for the long hours demanded. I looked up the median salary and its only 50k so I'm assuming it's not crazy skilled labor (e.g. brain drain). Taiwanese workers just seem more willing to do it.

[IshKebab]

I spoke to a Taiwanese person and apparently the salaries there are actually quite good, even by western standards (normal ones; not SF). The downside is they have very very long hours (996, barely any holiday, etc.).

[bluGill]

50k is just a step above McDonalds these days in a lot of areas. Sure minimum wage might be $15k, but realistically nobody pays that little except in very rural areas (if you need a small number of low skilled employees a small rural town is a perfect spot to build - but if you need more than a small number they can't provide more at any price - you will pay more in the city but there are a lot more people around if you need more)

[rkagerer]

...just seem more willing to do it

That's why manufacturing offshored in the first place, companies feel they're receiving better value for money on wages elsewhere for this kind of work (and these days not to mention more & larger facilities, proximity to component sources, and a strong ecosystem of supporting and complimentary facilities).

[byw]

Cost of living can be a lot lower in Taiwan, if your property is already paid off.

Unfortunately housing is super overpriced, due to the Asian mentality resulting in high property ownership.

Real estate is always the monkey wrench in the gears of capitalism because of high necessity yet limited supply.

[enragedcacti]

The chips still need to fly back to Taiwan to be packaged as packaging partner Amkor's facility in Arizona won't be ready until 2027*. I'm not sure the cause of the delta but it could be in part because Fab 21 got back on schedule rather impressively following earlier delays.

* updated to reflect newer article that Amkor's facility is delayed beyond late-2025

[onlyrealcuzzo]

The hardest part is making the chips, no?

Packaging facilities cost ~20% of a fab, right?

Naively, I'm assuming packaging is also not as complicate and difficult as fabrication.

Surely if they can build a fab in the US, they can build packaging facilities, too.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

[MisterTea]

I was about to say, surly at some point in the near future the USA will introduce this capability. Shame they did not match each other in completion time.

[bee_rider]

Also a lot of US STEM grads have their skills wasted in unproductive fields, like the ad business.

[kobalsky]

the internet ad industry is raking billions from all over the world into the USA, how can you call that unproductive.

[pjc50]

If it's so unproductive why does it pay so well?

[Salgat]

For a new factory with a new entry into the local market it makes perfect sense to bring in experienced workers for knowledge transfer. This is more an issue if a decade later this is still how things are done.

[sct202]

Back when American companies were offshoring, the initial start up teams were comprised of a lot of Americans who would do commissioning and initial ramp ups while training up the foreign workers. It's a lot easier to train people on a production line that is proven to work.

[tokioyoyo]

Problem is, those jobs in emerging markets were desirable compared to other jobs (for pay and opportunities), which helped with talent growth. These factory jobs, in comparison to other jobs, aren’t that desirable.

[epicureanideal]

> STEM field gap

STEM salary gap

I suspect the Taiwan workers have on average much lower salaries.

[lysace]

Yes, roughly speaking 1:4 compared to California.

Edit: This is not news. This (combined with their higher EE education) is why Taiwan won IBM PC-clone-related manufacturing in the 80s. And why they now have TSMC.

[blobbers]

That's really a training issue.

Making chips isn't something you learn the details of at University. You can take all the classes you want in advanced semiconductor techniques but the simple fact is University level manufacturing is nowhere close to SOTA.

Basically, you need fab workers to spend time in Taiwan/China, and then return to USA. It's the same model that most foreign students use at schools in USA/Canada. Get USA/Canadian name brand school on resume, learn english, and go back to home country = profit.

[baxtr]

Re the first point: Why do you think it is so difficult to transfer chip production off Taiwan?

I don’t think this is about salaries. Nor is this about facilities.

This is about process know-how. And it’s currently not available outside of Taiwan. I’m glad we’re finally starting to transfer knowledge. It will take a couple more years.

[amelius]

How do we know there is knowledge transfer?

If I were Taiwan/TSMC, I would protect my trade secrets as if my life depended on it (which may actually be true).

[nimish]

> glaring STEM field gap in the U.S.

There is no such gap. The jobs do not pay Americans enough to tolerate the conditions.

[copperx]

And the few people who tolerate such conditions are already employed by game development companies.

[tobiasdorge]

Does anyone know the general path to get involved in this? Perhaps its romantic, but this seems important, it seems hard, and it seems like something I can be proud of working on (as opposed to maximizing ad clicks). I'm just a SWE w/ a Comp sci degree, so what's the entry-point here?

[Gomer1800]

Your entry point is a masters and probably Phd in Electrical Engineering, specializing in some aspect of semiconductor manufacturing. It’s definitely not CS.

[hn3er1q]

EDA software has some of the most amazing algorithms. I'm always surprised more CS people aren't into it.

You can find many great opensource projects here: https://theopenroadproject.org

But to get some context, and try out the flow and how everything works together, start here: https://tinytapeout.com

[pcdoodle]

I'm not too sure but I would assume there's going to be faster turn prototype chips in the USA now? Is packaging needed to prove a prototype? Can we start buying IP blocks and make our own ICs? I'd love a MCU with built in IMU and wide range LDO, not sure if that's possible all on the same node.

There's going to be some niches opening as a result of this IMO.

[someperson]

EDA software?

[kureikain]

it's first step. you gotta do something to bootstrap, solve chicken-egg problem. From what I can see around me, the "made in america" is a no joke branding. a lot of pppl going tobuyjust because of that. and may even consider it as social status and their policial support.

[someperson]

The Purism Librem 5 phone is very expensive and unfortunately not that popular. Haven't met anyone who uses one yet

[MR4D]

You have to walk before you can run.

You have to crawl before you can walk. Apparently this is where we are at.

[Nickersf]

I have two kids in grade school and middle school and I see why we have a STEM gap. I have to constantly correct the learning at home in math. Also, I think it's fair to assume that in Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China the school kids are actually put on an academic grindset unlike here where there is such little academic rigor or discipline being enforced by the school it makes sense why the k-12 education numbers are as bad as they are in the USA.

It might be worth getting up in front of the kids in middle school + and saying "Hey you're in competition at a global scale here. You're going to have to work your butts off to stay relevant."

[matwood]

Sure, but this is how a supply chain gets bootstrapped. All those factories in China didn't magically appear one day. Just like they didn't appear when Apple started moving operations to Vietnam. You start piecemeal and build out.

[caycep]

isn't packaging tech mostly from american companies like applied mat/lam research? or am I missing something?

[hnthrowaway0315]

Maybe that's how US is going to have enough STEM talents -- just like WWI and WWII, take as many talents as possible when the other parts of the world are in shit.

[whatwhaaaaat]

The scenario that we’re going to be able to fight a war with another first world power, where we will attack their infrastructure but ours will be left untouched, seems unlikely.

[wink]

I have no specific info regarding this plant, but for anyone who never experienced this: flying in people from other plants at the starts (and all 3rd party vendors for a hypercare phase at launch) seems pretty normal.

If they have to keep staffing it that way, that's different.

[bakies]

this is how chick-fil-a does it

[comte7092]

Having a STEM degree isn’t a substitute for real world experience in a production facility.

Clustering is a feedback loop where production creates people with experience in production, something needs to kickstart that process.

[PittleyDunkin]

> - The chips still need to fly back to Taiwan to be packaged as there are no facilities here with such a capability.

This seems to be a much more achievable barrier to work around than not having a fab.

[b112]

I think people are missing something, training.

It's a new fab, and people need to be trained on current processes and work roles. If you have a skilled work force, you use them to train.

[alt227]

can you really say the chip was made in America when it is only the die wafer which was made there and the rest was made and assembled in Taiwan?

[isodev]

> The chips still need to fly back to Taiwan

The planet burned, but at least we made a few chips in America.

[fooblaster]

you can fly a few hundred million dollars worth of chips in a single flight. You need not be concerned. The impact from temu shipments is several orders of magnitude higher.

[maxglute]

>50% of the workers flew in from Taiwan to work on this plant

I wonder what % of work they did.

[hammock]

It's a start

[ge96]

brain drain from where? thought a problem is influx of workers into us although more for software not sure of chip tech

[nimbius]

made in america is also a federally defined standard that these chips categorically fail to meet. assembled in the united states is more appropriate, and even then if you didnt hire americans to do it, what was the point?

this is starting to feel like the best of intentions that has spiraled into a political theatricality where close-enough will be good-enough.

given the current state of declining US college enrollment, the affordability crisis of college, the growing wage gap, the failure of the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, and the failure to reform predatory US student lending practices I do not see how the US will in the next 25 years ever manage to curate the type of braintrust for which it was once renowned across the globe.

[enragedcacti]

This is so disconnected from reality. They've gone from breaking ground to replicating one of the most advanced fabrication processes in the history of the world _at scale_ in about 4 years, but they'll be sending the dies off for packaging while their packaging partner comes online so its just political theatre?

Also, over half of the employees are local hires and the ratio will increase as more of the fab spins up. IMO it would be much worse political theatre to delay and balloon the cost of the project by forcing TSMC to exclusively use a workforce that has no experience with the companies tools and processes.

[bloomingkales]

Off topic but currently relevant:

Over 50% of the workers flew in from Taiwan to work on this plant and make these chips.

Those are the 50% we’re willing to bring in no questions asked via any visa program.

Not the elusive Java developer.