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the-dude | 1 year ago

> At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality.

Although we don't have civil forfeiture, this is already true in The Netherlands.

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soco|1 year ago

Are you sure the "any amount" generalization is true? I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control for simple suspicion, but we are talking (tens of) thousands. Although there's a certain obligation of declaration those people always "forget", that situation stays shitty, but in any case it's a very very far cry from "any amount".

jeroenhd|1 year ago

One Dutch party in the previous government tried to outlaw carrying more than €2000 in the street. As far as I know, that law didn't pass. Plus you can keep as many cash reserves at home as you want (but good luck getting any back if that gets stolen).

However, there are rules that make cash less useful for large payments. Cash payments over €10000 (€3000 starting in March) are outright banned without involving the government.

There are more practical problems than "I just really want to buy a car without giving out my bank account", though: more and more Dutch stores have stopped taking cash to reduce the risk and losses of robberies. You can still carry cash, but spending it may require some research ahead of time, and not every business is interested in the overhead of going through the money laundering prevention system when normal people usually just buy >€3000 stuff through their bank accounts.

If anything, the Dutch government has been telling people to have cash available in case of emergencies after "geopolitical tension" (read: the Russian invasion into Ukraine). Not that anyone seems to listen, but they encourage having cash reserves. They're still working out an exact amount to recommend, but a couple hundred euros seems to be most likely.

the-dude|1 year ago

If it were really 'any' in the philosophical sense, cash would be outlawed. So no, it is not 'any', it is anywhere between more than a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, depending on what the police or prosecutor feels is reasonable.

What is wrong with a (couple of) thousand euros?

> I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control

You are describing smuggling, I was talking about normal domestic use.

MEMORYC_RRUPTED|1 year ago

While I don't disagree with the general statement, I do want to add the nuance that this isn't true for small amounts of cash money. Recently, the government even recommended people to keep more cash on hand in case of emergency / large scale disruptions to the financial system.

Even with large amounts of money, it's not like they're knocking on doors, looking under yer bed.

RajT88|1 year ago

What constitutes a large sum depends a bit based on the situation (or what kind of person you are!).

A 2020 study found the average seized was $1300: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

In some states, the average seized amount is in the hundreds, or even less: https://thewhyaxis.substack.com/p/cops-still-take-more-stuff...

In Chicago, they are taking amounts less than $100: https://reason.com/2017/06/13/poor-neighborhoods-hit-hardest...

"You are too poor to fairly have $100, so we're taking it" seems insane to me.

the-dude|1 year ago

What is small and what is large is a matter of opinion.

If they are out to get you and can't find anything incriminating, cash will do. The press will happily report on this too : 'There was a police raid so and so, nothing was found but they found a (large) amount of cash'.

Furthermore, our government is planning legislation to make cash transactions > € 3000 illegal.

coldtea|1 year ago

Non-sovereign subjects can't be allowed to do whatever they want with their own money...