What's peculiar is that we are in a situation where we hold so exactly opposite views about... life. Indoctrinated? I could return the exact same thing to you, from the perspective of someone whose families saw the exact same script play thrice: in Italy, in France and in Germany.
> Also, you need help because you are clearly indoctrinated. Wokeism is not Progressive and Conservatism is not Fascism.
No, clearly, conservatism is not fascism. I come from a European, conservatist family, milieu, education; strict, aristocratic heritage (whatever that means today), catholic. It's not an argument of authority, but I do know pretty well, from the inside, what conservatism is, the pretty parts and the ugly parts. And I know what disguises as such and is not. Fascism is of a twisted one of that kind.
However, you visibly haven't noticed, western conservative minds (in the "West" at least) have been cleverly and patiently hijacked by a fascist, white supremacist ideology that has found luck in some technocratic and aristocratic circles, without which it would have no fund, no tools. Precisely what some fought against to death 80 years ago, they are embracing today. And it is no pure accident.
All that conservatives typically value (for short, Christian, patriotic, traditional values) has been used as bait to lure you and others into giving power to something that is the exact opposite, while thinking in good faith that this is good strategy. Twisting actual facts into their own narrative. Raising segments of the society against each other, rather than trying to reconcile and pacify. And unfortunately, given the order in which the scripts plays out, you may not have the time to be sorry at the time they will turn against you, because all those who could have spoken for you will be gone by then.
What an example? You gave me one:
> If "serving every person with equal dignity and respect", "reward individual initiative, skills, performance, and hard work", and "prevent the hiring of individuals based on their race, sex, or religion" are "fascist propaganda" then you need help.
This is double-speak. You take it at face value, of course it's positive and desirable. I would definitely support that. Only, if you look at who's talking, what their history is, what the tone of their speech is, what their skills are, you cannot NOT see what the inter text is.
If you look deep, you'll notice it all leads back to a single first country which is decades ahead of "us" in strategic storytelling, and mass opinion manipulation. The damage to democracy is fast, abyssal, and it will take several decades to fix, if ever.
It will never serve the American people. That's a delusion so enormous it's difficult for most of us in Europe to understand. We saw the exact same script play with the Brexit, and they fell for it (although not as bad as it was planned).
The open question is, was this country capable alone of this level of long-time strategic thinking and coordination, or is it helped by a third one which has mastered this type of thinking for much longer?
All the damage that americans are going to face from now on, as well as probably Europe (Brexit was part of it, Hungary fell for it, so did Italia, France is hardly avoiding a far-right authoritarian take over in 2 years, and so on), is the logical consequence of that hijack in motion. The far-rights already had a rise, but they have seen massive financial and logistical support for the past 10 years.
All I can say is that I'm sorry you bought in the Republicans (or whatever is behind) propaganda and hope you'll stay open to the conversation, wherever it happens on your side, and come back some day from the very, very dark place that is ahead.
There's definitely deep difference in the understanding that comes from a USA person and from a European person. "wokeism" is a clever made-up tag, again, because, as it's not a definite notion, you can swipe a lot of things under it, as a lot of you have done with "socialism" or "communism". But it likely means actually nothing at all.
As for "woke", as it means a different thing historically, and is more difficult to take over by the far-right, I guess we don't put the same value into it.
Juliate|1 year ago
> Also, you need help because you are clearly indoctrinated. Wokeism is not Progressive and Conservatism is not Fascism.
No, clearly, conservatism is not fascism. I come from a European, conservatist family, milieu, education; strict, aristocratic heritage (whatever that means today), catholic. It's not an argument of authority, but I do know pretty well, from the inside, what conservatism is, the pretty parts and the ugly parts. And I know what disguises as such and is not. Fascism is of a twisted one of that kind.
However, you visibly haven't noticed, western conservative minds (in the "West" at least) have been cleverly and patiently hijacked by a fascist, white supremacist ideology that has found luck in some technocratic and aristocratic circles, without which it would have no fund, no tools. Precisely what some fought against to death 80 years ago, they are embracing today. And it is no pure accident.
All that conservatives typically value (for short, Christian, patriotic, traditional values) has been used as bait to lure you and others into giving power to something that is the exact opposite, while thinking in good faith that this is good strategy. Twisting actual facts into their own narrative. Raising segments of the society against each other, rather than trying to reconcile and pacify. And unfortunately, given the order in which the scripts plays out, you may not have the time to be sorry at the time they will turn against you, because all those who could have spoken for you will be gone by then.
What an example? You gave me one:
> If "serving every person with equal dignity and respect", "reward individual initiative, skills, performance, and hard work", and "prevent the hiring of individuals based on their race, sex, or religion" are "fascist propaganda" then you need help.
This is double-speak. You take it at face value, of course it's positive and desirable. I would definitely support that. Only, if you look at who's talking, what their history is, what the tone of their speech is, what their skills are, you cannot NOT see what the inter text is.
If you look deep, you'll notice it all leads back to a single first country which is decades ahead of "us" in strategic storytelling, and mass opinion manipulation. The damage to democracy is fast, abyssal, and it will take several decades to fix, if ever.
It will never serve the American people. That's a delusion so enormous it's difficult for most of us in Europe to understand. We saw the exact same script play with the Brexit, and they fell for it (although not as bad as it was planned).
The open question is, was this country capable alone of this level of long-time strategic thinking and coordination, or is it helped by a third one which has mastered this type of thinking for much longer?
All the damage that americans are going to face from now on, as well as probably Europe (Brexit was part of it, Hungary fell for it, so did Italia, France is hardly avoiding a far-right authoritarian take over in 2 years, and so on), is the logical consequence of that hijack in motion. The far-rights already had a rise, but they have seen massive financial and logistical support for the past 10 years.
All I can say is that I'm sorry you bought in the Republicans (or whatever is behind) propaganda and hope you'll stay open to the conversation, wherever it happens on your side, and come back some day from the very, very dark place that is ahead.
There's definitely deep difference in the understanding that comes from a USA person and from a European person. "wokeism" is a clever made-up tag, again, because, as it's not a definite notion, you can swipe a lot of things under it, as a lot of you have done with "socialism" or "communism". But it likely means actually nothing at all.
As for "woke", as it means a different thing historically, and is more difficult to take over by the far-right, I guess we don't put the same value into it.
Dalewyn|1 year ago
[deleted]
hcurtiss|1 year ago