Not every was around when the web was obscure. It's hard to explain how magical that time was. The pinnacle of the web for me was Audio Galaxy. A website where you could find new music to download and even push music to your friend's computer (using the Audio Galaxy Satellite app) [1].
I spent so much time in IRC rooms and discussion forums. It wasn't doom scrolling. No one was trying to manipulate me for my time or money. Perhaps you can think of it like going down a rabbit hole of Wikipedia articles. But there were so many people sharing so many unique perspectives - some I became friends with and many of those remain today.
I felt something like neocities might recapture that feeling. I haven't put in enough time to see if that's the case. I do hope that for a future generation that they get to experience something like the very early web ... it truly was remarkable.
The version of doom scrolling then was refreshing threads on your common-interest forum. Or staring blankly at the screen waiting for the next chat message.
Chat obviously still exists but… I don't know. Discord et al don't feel like the IRC channels of yesteryear, but I don't know why. Not having to battle nickserv? Too much external media?
Perhaps speed is part of this. On a 56k, with 30kbps down, you couldn't rush around. Everything in the process came with load times. Forced meditation.
I have a theory that part of why you don't see such great niche sites now is that they were the productive of cognitive surplus. People had spare brain power and not that much to do with it, so they built and contributed to fun sites.
Now, FB and YouTube and Tiktok etc have gotten very good at consuming all that free time and energy.
They have become good at capturing that surplus. People are still doing amazing things, and these platforms give them the tools to publish videos, an audience, and monetisation opportunities. However the platforms giveth, then taketh away.
You don’t see it because we’re all back in the gated community of AOL, but rather than clicking on an icon to a community you click a Google search result.
I can see some of it coming back. Myself I find AI has restored my joy with development by removing most of the drudge and leaving me to be mostly in charges of ideas and direction. It has reduced the amount of time required to build something and works around some of that metacognitive laziness that had crept in.
Before MySpace web designers and developers could have work all year just working with bands. Band web work basically dried up below a certain band success level over a year or two.
But since MySpace allowed custom CSS and had limited built in design options it created a new market for custom pages. The rates were mostly lower but there were probably 100X the number of bands that needed work.
There's money/profit, but there's also society. before facebook, the web was a virtual space of pseudos, when reality (real name, places, pictures) started to leak in, suddenly things get serious. you can bully, impersonate, steal/toy-with personal information... rapidly problems occur and need for law and morality follows suit.
One of my collaborators would say we got seduced by the idea that it wasn't about the money. That is, it was cheap enough that we could go for a while without thinking how to pay for it, then the advertising model looked like an answer.
Early on one would make the comparison to advertising on TV, radio, magazines and such. Little did we know that personalized advertising would lead to something much worse. I mean, Proctor and Gamble, who gave us the soap opera, has been around since 1837. Do any of the big YouTube advertisers like all the fake food companies or the scam supplement subscription companies or Established Titles expect to be around in 2 years?
If people had been thinking about how to pay for it from day one we'd be in a different place.
The death of the Internet was so insidious. I guess I trusted too much that what people built would remain the same. Once a few players took over their respective niches, they opened up a Pandora Box of ways to make money.
I miss finding niche forums where we saw a number of very active members, and we could distinguish them. There was often great care curating their content. These communities have been concentrating on Reddit, and I don't like it.
The wild thing is that the web has achieved both the aspirations and the failings mentioned here. There's an odd dichotomy of user experiences.
Progress really has accelerated. "Big data" couldn't have been a thing without the Internet. Science through improved communication is advancing more rapidly than ever before. Just look at how quickly things change today vs. 100 years ago in all aspects of life.
Knowledge is everywhere, you just need to know where to dig to work around all of the junk. You no longer need to take up an apprenticeship to understand the basics of a given job, and knowledge as a whole is more accessible than ever before.
We really can communicate with people all over the world. The Internet is always active, because users from across the globe are always online.
The Internet has accelerated globalism. People can readily expose themselves to outside ideas and perspectives, so long as they take the effort to step outside of their algorithm-prescribed interest bubbles every once in a while. You can make friends on the other side of the planet and communicate far easier than you could ever send letters or pay for long-distance phone calls.
People still make their own websites. I'm sure there are more of them then there ever were in the '90s, they're just significantly harder to surface in the deluge of the modern Internet.
Ads, pop-ups, and modals are only experienced by people that don't know about worthwhile ad/nuisance blockers.
Ultimately, the Internet is filled with more content rather than strictly better content than ever before. Though as a consequence of more, it means there's also more great knowledge and more likeminded subcultures available than ever before, but you need a certain kind of discipline to actively work to find it. This is why I feel that information literacy is one of the most important life skills: if you can find the "good stuff", discriminate fact from fiction, and dig deeper than an AI-generated Google summary of search results, then you have the means to learn and develop talents in just about anything.
For me the start of the decline is when Netscape went under. Billy @ Microsoft threw his weight around and IE dominated (sigh). The final nail in the coffin is when mozilla suite was torn apart and the browser was renamed Seamonkey. No really. "Seamonkey" is what was decided.
I do look back at the early 90's with nostalgia. Too bad you can never go back.
I often feel this way about a lot of things where I was present during the genesis moment. Then I remind myself that I'm getting older and likely misremembering what it was really like - fun and exciting, but not very useful.
Moreover, I feel like this perspective fails to acknowledge everyone globally who benefits massively from simply having access to information I take for granted - even if it is surrounded by ads.
Lastly, I get that the proliferation of apps for tangible goods is frustrating, but there is an answer...just don't purchase that item! I've passed on loads of purchases because I don't want another app. I once went to a Mariners game and forgot I had my Leatherman in my pocket. Understandably, they wouldn't let me in, but told me I could use a nearby locker which required I install an app. I gave my ticket to someone else and walked back to work. No big deal.
>Lastly, I get that the proliferation of apps for tangible goods is frustrating,
I had the same experience with a mobile service provider that I use, recently.
since the last few days, the USSD code that used to work to find my prepaid recharge expiry date, so that I could recharge again in time, does not work. it doesn't even give a proper error message. it just suddenly exits, and tell me to install an app for that purpose.
mobile self service / IVR features are brain dead, and don't work a lot of the time anyway. I don't know what the reason is, except stupidity.
they've been pushing this version of the Internet on us forever. first compuserv, then aol, yahoo, Google, FB, now x/tiktok. everything gets ruined once it goes critical mass. we loved those days because it was pure freedom. choose your own adventure. now we get force fed crap we never asked for.
we didn't need to monetize anything. you need power, a computer, and a connection, that's it. that's not too hard to pay for. they printed a bunch of money and created things we didn't need or want. .com bubble my ass. how much of those trillions over the years have actually produced value? nay, it was an easy way to build wealth and suck up printed money while they on-boarded users who will never know those times but always silently long for them. who was it that said be careful who you give your power to?
also the amount of content etc. For all sorts of tastes. I was just watching a comparison test of Craftsman wrenches from 100 years ago, 50 years ago and today. You just didn't have that sort of important content in the early days. https://youtu.be/VTSGAyyLzvo
I feel everything in this article as somebody who first got online when I was 13 in 1994. In those days you got bullied for being "good at computers" (especially in the rural area I grew up in) and the communities formed on IRC and early multiplayer gaming networks were a lifesaver. Many websites were written by college students who essentially "blogged" their newly discovered free lives, which was so appealing to my teen-aged self.
It's cliche to malign mass market consumerism, but it really is a lowest common denominator phenomenon. I feel like the internet has made grifting so scalable that it's getting more and more difficult to consume.
The sad thing is that it would take only about twenty of you people, you who came across this post on HN today and are now reading this comment, to build an alternative ecosystem.
> I thought it would bring people together, but instead, it's used to find and create new ways in which we can group and hate each other.
As McLuhan wrote, "The Medium is the Message". AFAICT, the medium known as "the web" is (paradoxically) not about interconnection, but its core property is fragmentation.
This intrinsic nature is turbocharged via algorithmic per-user "engagement optimization".
Coming from the guy who shut down Facepunch forums with the snap of his fingers without a single ounce of care about all that content that would just disappear.
Complaining about a forest fire when you've thrown your share of cigarettes is rich.
I tend to think Section 230 is what caused this, and repealing it can unravel everything back to how it was in 1996. Yet people act so protective over it.
jmathai|1 year ago
I spent so much time in IRC rooms and discussion forums. It wasn't doom scrolling. No one was trying to manipulate me for my time or money. Perhaps you can think of it like going down a rabbit hole of Wikipedia articles. But there were so many people sharing so many unique perspectives - some I became friends with and many of those remain today.
I felt something like neocities might recapture that feeling. I haven't put in enough time to see if that's the case. I do hope that for a future generation that they get to experience something like the very early web ... it truly was remarkable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiogalaxy
TechDebtDevin|1 year ago
oliwarner|1 year ago
Chat obviously still exists but… I don't know. Discord et al don't feel like the IRC channels of yesteryear, but I don't know why. Not having to battle nickserv? Too much external media?
Perhaps speed is part of this. On a 56k, with 30kbps down, you couldn't rush around. Everything in the process came with load times. Forced meditation.
I miss it.
stevage|1 year ago
Now, FB and YouTube and Tiktok etc have gotten very good at consuming all that free time and energy.
Just a theory.
nicbou|1 year ago
marginalia_nu|1 year ago
pupppet|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
qingcharles|1 year ago
nerflad|1 year ago
tehwebguy|1 year ago
Before MySpace web designers and developers could have work all year just working with bands. Band web work basically dried up below a certain band success level over a year or two.
But since MySpace allowed custom CSS and had limited built in design options it created a new market for custom pages. The rates were mostly lower but there were probably 100X the number of bands that needed work.
hyperhello|1 year ago
agumonkey|1 year ago
PaulHoule|1 year ago
One of my collaborators would say we got seduced by the idea that it wasn't about the money. That is, it was cheap enough that we could go for a while without thinking how to pay for it, then the advertising model looked like an answer.
Early on one would make the comparison to advertising on TV, radio, magazines and such. Little did we know that personalized advertising would lead to something much worse. I mean, Proctor and Gamble, who gave us the soap opera, has been around since 1837. Do any of the big YouTube advertisers like all the fake food companies or the scam supplement subscription companies or Established Titles expect to be around in 2 years?
If people had been thinking about how to pay for it from day one we'd be in a different place.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch
gloomyday|1 year ago
I miss finding niche forums where we saw a number of very active members, and we could distinguish them. There was often great care curating their content. These communities have been concentrating on Reddit, and I don't like it.
MarioMan|1 year ago
Progress really has accelerated. "Big data" couldn't have been a thing without the Internet. Science through improved communication is advancing more rapidly than ever before. Just look at how quickly things change today vs. 100 years ago in all aspects of life.
Knowledge is everywhere, you just need to know where to dig to work around all of the junk. You no longer need to take up an apprenticeship to understand the basics of a given job, and knowledge as a whole is more accessible than ever before.
We really can communicate with people all over the world. The Internet is always active, because users from across the globe are always online.
The Internet has accelerated globalism. People can readily expose themselves to outside ideas and perspectives, so long as they take the effort to step outside of their algorithm-prescribed interest bubbles every once in a while. You can make friends on the other side of the planet and communicate far easier than you could ever send letters or pay for long-distance phone calls.
People still make their own websites. I'm sure there are more of them then there ever were in the '90s, they're just significantly harder to surface in the deluge of the modern Internet.
Ads, pop-ups, and modals are only experienced by people that don't know about worthwhile ad/nuisance blockers.
Ultimately, the Internet is filled with more content rather than strictly better content than ever before. Though as a consequence of more, it means there's also more great knowledge and more likeminded subcultures available than ever before, but you need a certain kind of discipline to actively work to find it. This is why I feel that information literacy is one of the most important life skills: if you can find the "good stuff", discriminate fact from fiction, and dig deeper than an AI-generated Google summary of search results, then you have the means to learn and develop talents in just about anything.
Fizzadar|1 year ago
throw7|1 year ago
I do look back at the early 90's with nostalgia. Too bad you can never go back.
RyanOD|1 year ago
Moreover, I feel like this perspective fails to acknowledge everyone globally who benefits massively from simply having access to information I take for granted - even if it is surrounded by ads.
Lastly, I get that the proliferation of apps for tangible goods is frustrating, but there is an answer...just don't purchase that item! I've passed on loads of purchases because I don't want another app. I once went to a Mariners game and forgot I had my Leatherman in my pocket. Understandably, they wouldn't let me in, but told me I could use a nearby locker which required I install an app. I gave my ticket to someone else and walked back to work. No big deal.
fuzztester|1 year ago
I had the same experience with a mobile service provider that I use, recently.
since the last few days, the USSD code that used to work to find my prepaid recharge expiry date, so that I could recharge again in time, does not work. it doesn't even give a proper error message. it just suddenly exits, and tell me to install an app for that purpose.
mobile self service / IVR features are brain dead, and don't work a lot of the time anyway. I don't know what the reason is, except stupidity.
Maconha|1 year ago
we didn't need to monetize anything. you need power, a computer, and a connection, that's it. that's not too hard to pay for. they printed a bunch of money and created things we didn't need or want. .com bubble my ass. how much of those trillions over the years have actually produced value? nay, it was an easy way to build wealth and suck up printed money while they on-boarded users who will never know those times but always silently long for them. who was it that said be careful who you give your power to?
tim333|1 year ago
https://www.zippia.com/advice/how-many-people-use-the-intern...
also the amount of content etc. For all sorts of tastes. I was just watching a comparison test of Craftsman wrenches from 100 years ago, 50 years ago and today. You just didn't have that sort of important content in the early days. https://youtu.be/VTSGAyyLzvo
hylaride|1 year ago
It's cliche to malign mass market consumerism, but it really is a lowest common denominator phenomenon. I feel like the internet has made grifting so scalable that it's getting more and more difficult to consume.
thomassmith65|1 year ago
The sad thing is that it would take only about twenty of you people, you who came across this post on HN today and are now reading this comment, to build an alternative ecosystem.
krapp|1 year ago
aklemm|1 year ago
nolroz|1 year ago
disqard|1 year ago
As McLuhan wrote, "The Medium is the Message". AFAICT, the medium known as "the web" is (paradoxically) not about interconnection, but its core property is fragmentation.
This intrinsic nature is turbocharged via algorithmic per-user "engagement optimization".
reidrac|1 year ago
An error has occurred. This application may no longer respond until reloaded. Reload
The death of the web, indeed.
jmathai|1 year ago
ValveFan6969|1 year ago
Complaining about a forest fire when you've thrown your share of cigarettes is rich.
tboyd47|1 year ago
datadrivenangel|1 year ago
fuzztester|1 year ago
the former was a website / pre-social-media-but-like-it site, with an email service, iirc, and the latter was a web browser.
I used them for a while, I thought they were good for a while. after that I don't remember what happened. they probably shutdown sometime later.
but they were interesting at the time.
eimrine|1 year ago
Kovah|1 year ago