The same argument was made with regard to the consumer retail banking experience when ATMs were introduced in 1967!
Asynchronous remote transactions are commonplace today; this is all a smokescreen for over-leveraged commercial real estate interests held by major US financial institutions.
I enjoyed the year I consulted at JPMC, they have some sharp people, and on the surface of it, who am I to criticise the boss of such a successful company? OTOH…
I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted.
But… I haven’t set foot in an office for five years now and I’m as productive as I ever was. Possibly more.
As for his “people are distracted during meetings”, perhaps there ought to be more focus on only holding necessary meetings, rather than dragging people in when there’s no reason for them to be there and nothing to hold their interest? In my experience that’s the cause of a lot of the snark and slacking.
> I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted.
I agree with this, but I didn't grow up with a phone in my hand. I didn't have a mobile phone until I was about 30 years old and I didn't have a smartphone until I was in my 40s. I can't work well with people over remote calls, I hate Zoom and desktop sharing, don't like slack or teams. I find it so much more efficient to sit with another person or small group if there is a group task to be completed or a group decision to be made.
That said, unnecessary meetings are a real thing, have been a problem in large orgs forever, and Zoom doesn't fix that. Might make it worse, as invites are not limited by the physical size of the room.
And realistically how many times is Jamie Dimon meeting with the entry level Zoomers? Here and there but the CEO spends his time meeting with exec and mid level management.
It feels like he's just old and pining for days gone by - in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too. I dislike that as well, but that's not a WFH issue.
We have some really phoning it in zoom folks we've hired who do their job semi ok but are just awful and don't contribute to culture, are super dialed out.
I don't want to totally damn them, because they have families and lives and other things going. But I've had a number of coworkers tell me they have re-adapted their code review to say near nothing (it won't be well received) and to otherwise end their own good-culture practices to adapt to really hostile remote culture.
The thing is, this isn't at all zoom. This isn't remote. It's companies that are just shit poor bad about letting bottom up knowledge trickle up. It's about terrible management that has made being in touch with their workforce hard. And in most cases, that's not the workforce: it's the management, it's the company.
It's easier to do this job of running a company in person, to spy & get information. But it's your laziness, it's your being awful at your job, that makes you rely on this in-touch layer.
How do you get people to stop looking at their fucking phones during zoom meetings? Sure if we had a magic perfect management fairy that could sprinkle perfect management skills on the managers maybe people would be better at working remotely but people are mostly lazy and will mostly do whatever they can get away with. And its way easier to get away with looking at your fucking phone during a zoom meeting than an in person meeting.
i sort of agree wit your sentiment, although probably would use more nuanced language about it.
i’ve had this exact conversation with my 70+ still working father so many times now. i’ve heard the rant in the article over and over again. and, like, he blames remote work too. “its the fucking zoom bullshit”.
but then i explain to him how i do remote work and suddenly gets it. like, remote working means you are required to work in a more direct and efficient way. you have to work hard at comms. you have to write everything with purpose. no “oh hey did you look at X”. instead “hey we need X done by T because otherwise Y. if you need to speak to P about it, they’re available this afternoon. contact me if anything is unclear and i’ll explain it to you on a call asap. let me know when you’ve read this please.”. like, i’ve debugged a production outage on my phone with other devs while in a doctors waiting room.
the problem is, yeah, a lot of people do treat it like a chance to sit at home doing the bare minimum.
and i think you kind of hit the nail on the head for something i hadn’t clocked. they can get away with it because “management” utterly suck at their jobs and haven’t adapted. like, i hear about people stuck in zoom meetings all the time… WHY?!? you don’t need face to face comms to work remotely. at all. it’s clinging on to the old ways of doing things!
up until now i’d been putting it down to a purely generational “can’t teach old dogs new tricks” thing. maybe it kind of is, just not in a way i’d seen before.
Does anyone find it strange that this argument is always boolean?
(Child of the late 70's/early 80's here)
At my current and prior company everyone enjoys the freedom of adulthood. Of course there are massive productivity benefits to working in person at times. Of course there are massive benefits to working from home at times. Not productive in your current role? Move on or you will be moved on. Pretty straight forward.
We have a small team that is remote by design. Yet everyone has commented that those rare times we can gather see massive uplift in productivity.
For us being in a central location is not possible. But for companies with an office building I can see the human dynamic of being together is very powerful.
Even with all the chat, trackers, conference tools etc “context” is the hardest thing to do remotely.
I'm in the same situation and I agree that when we are together we do collaborate and plan better. On Zoom, people tend to set their mic on mute and very passively engage. However, once we have to actually execute, being in the office is a negative. In the office, it is impossible for me to put my head down and work for a couple hours without someone showing up at my desk with a question. On Slack, I can set dnd with a status message and flow.
No, and it is highly ironic that sanctimonious Dimon is complaining about others’ work ethic when he is where he is only because his employer is deemed too big to fail.
Let’s see him do his “difficult” job without a blank check from US taxpayers.
Creativity (the ability to form novel ideas, use imagination, engage in investigation, etc.) is a critical component of many workplaces, including banking and finance. Creativity is not a dirty word, nor is it a positive one. Creativity can be used for positive and negative ends. Creativity in finance brought the CFPB, Dodd-Frank, Glass-Stegall... along with De-regulation, Free Trade, or Laissez Faire.
daviddever23box|1 year ago
Asynchronous remote transactions are commonplace today; this is all a smokescreen for over-leveraged commercial real estate interests held by major US financial institutions.
Nursie|1 year ago
I can see the argument that young people aren’t being exposed to older peers the same way and their learning may be stunted.
But… I haven’t set foot in an office for five years now and I’m as productive as I ever was. Possibly more.
As for his “people are distracted during meetings”, perhaps there ought to be more focus on only holding necessary meetings, rather than dragging people in when there’s no reason for them to be there and nothing to hold their interest? In my experience that’s the cause of a lot of the snark and slacking.
SoftTalker|1 year ago
I agree with this, but I didn't grow up with a phone in my hand. I didn't have a mobile phone until I was about 30 years old and I didn't have a smartphone until I was in my 40s. I can't work well with people over remote calls, I hate Zoom and desktop sharing, don't like slack or teams. I find it so much more efficient to sit with another person or small group if there is a group task to be completed or a group decision to be made.
That said, unnecessary meetings are a real thing, have been a problem in large orgs forever, and Zoom doesn't fix that. Might make it worse, as invites are not limited by the physical size of the room.
FireBeyond|1 year ago
ArthurStacks|1 year ago
gedy|1 year ago
It feels like he's just old and pining for days gone by - in person meetings have people staring at their laptops and phones too. I dislike that as well, but that's not a WFH issue.
foinker|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
jauntywundrkind|1 year ago
I don't want to totally damn them, because they have families and lives and other things going. But I've had a number of coworkers tell me they have re-adapted their code review to say near nothing (it won't be well received) and to otherwise end their own good-culture practices to adapt to really hostile remote culture.
The thing is, this isn't at all zoom. This isn't remote. It's companies that are just shit poor bad about letting bottom up knowledge trickle up. It's about terrible management that has made being in touch with their workforce hard. And in most cases, that's not the workforce: it's the management, it's the company.
It's easier to do this job of running a company in person, to spy & get information. But it's your laziness, it's your being awful at your job, that makes you rely on this in-touch layer.
Uehreka|1 year ago
Do you mean “phoning it in”?
Being “dialed in” and “phoning it in” are opposites, it was a little unclear which you meant from context.
gotoeleven|1 year ago
dijksterhuis|1 year ago
i’ve had this exact conversation with my 70+ still working father so many times now. i’ve heard the rant in the article over and over again. and, like, he blames remote work too. “its the fucking zoom bullshit”.
but then i explain to him how i do remote work and suddenly gets it. like, remote working means you are required to work in a more direct and efficient way. you have to work hard at comms. you have to write everything with purpose. no “oh hey did you look at X”. instead “hey we need X done by T because otherwise Y. if you need to speak to P about it, they’re available this afternoon. contact me if anything is unclear and i’ll explain it to you on a call asap. let me know when you’ve read this please.”. like, i’ve debugged a production outage on my phone with other devs while in a doctors waiting room.
the problem is, yeah, a lot of people do treat it like a chance to sit at home doing the bare minimum.
and i think you kind of hit the nail on the head for something i hadn’t clocked. they can get away with it because “management” utterly suck at their jobs and haven’t adapted. like, i hear about people stuck in zoom meetings all the time… WHY?!? you don’t need face to face comms to work remotely. at all. it’s clinging on to the old ways of doing things!
up until now i’d been putting it down to a purely generational “can’t teach old dogs new tricks” thing. maybe it kind of is, just not in a way i’d seen before.
mojomark|1 year ago
(Child of the late 70's/early 80's here)
At my current and prior company everyone enjoys the freedom of adulthood. Of course there are massive productivity benefits to working in person at times. Of course there are massive benefits to working from home at times. Not productive in your current role? Move on or you will be moved on. Pretty straight forward.
What's so
asimpleusecase|1 year ago
For us being in a central location is not possible. But for companies with an office building I can see the human dynamic of being together is very powerful.
Even with all the chat, trackers, conference tools etc “context” is the hardest thing to do remotely.
meowfly|1 year ago
alanfranz|1 year ago
In day to day remote work do you work together, or is it fully async with some chat-only meetings?
smetj|1 year ago
ChrisArchitect|1 year ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43032090
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43040828
insane_dreamer|1 year ago
Finnucane|1 year ago
lotsofpulp|1 year ago
Let’s see him do his “difficult” job without a blank check from US taxpayers.
laughingcurve|1 year ago
milesrout|1 year ago
bfeynman|1 year ago
arcmechanica|1 year ago
gedy|1 year ago
readthenotes1|1 year ago
I swear to you that one of my teammates said hold on I have to walk into a meeting but once I settle in I can resume with us