I've yet to see anyone put this quote in context to show that the user of it meant it to be racist or offensive. Absent that context I take issue with people singling it out as an example of toxicity.
I'm not even convinced that we've hit the 70% mark on this hyperstitious slur cascade. I know a lot of people take offense at it, and if this keeps going then we'll certainly hit 70% within the tech world very quickly as people drop the phrase like a hot potato, but as of right now I'm not comfortable with the way that this maintainer is being attacked for a single phrase.
If they've demonstrated a pattern of toxicity, let's talk about that pattern, not about one hyperstitious slur.
It seems to be a largely American thing to think the phrase is bad (reasonably so, given how it has started to be used) and many others seem to not know what it means, evidenced by only understanding the current law enforcement use or their admission that they had to read wikipedia.
That said, for many people, it is a hostile phrase that refers to privileges that law enforcement provide for each other and those close to them but not others. Things like letting people out of tickets, misapplying situational judgements to make a victim look like the perpetrator, lying on the stand about it, etc.
In that context, it’s a phrase with bad optics. I see presumably why they chose the phrase but that also presumes they were not aware of how it’s used by many American police officers. It would otherwise seem incredibly tone deaf; well past the 70% figure among those circles.
Asian man uses historical quote that is being abused by racists, white man steps back because the language threatens marginalized groups. I just can't take any of this seriously anymore.
Outside of his silly comments about marginalised people, it does genuinely seem a little strange that maintainers of the project view themselves as some sort of punisher-style police force.
The context that's missing for a lot of the left leaning people hearing this is that much of the population of the US still sees police officers as heroes worthy of emulation. The thin blue line between order and chaos is a powerful image for a lot of people, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a punisher style police force.
That’s sort of what the phrase has started to mean because of how it’s used by many American police officers. It has more reasonable historic meanings.
If comments as benign as "thin blue line" causes fragile entryist/activists to flee, I say Ted and the kernel team are doing the right thing. Projects as critical as the Linux kernel shouldn't be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, nor should they be platforms for proselytizing. Herbst and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake. Lots of projects have been turned upsidedown by the drama they seem to bring with them everywhere. The salient point is contributors need to be more than "drive by" submitters for their pet projects. This isn't specific to Rust in the kernel, look at how much of an uphill battle bcachefs was/is.
What's so wrong about the thin blue line statement? I didn't know about this phrase before so I read the wiki page. Isn't the usage correct? Kernel maintainers need to ensure the kernel code doesn't become a unmaintainable ball of mud.
The statement's recent place in the public consciousness is largely because it was used as a pro-police slogan against the BLM/"police abolition" movement in the US. The Rust community, being overwhelmingly progressive, is already sensitive about supposed dogwhistles, as well as words that cause them negative associations, in computing (in the vein of "master"->"main" renamings); having that slogan used as a metaphor for keeping out changes that they want in a technical debate would be felt by some of them as an open taunt or provocation.
Woke (modern, post 2010-version) looks like a psyops campaign, designed to destroy the social cohesion of western societies.
Looking at what has happened since 2010 and how the vibe has changed, it seems to have been extremely successful.
It started soon after Russia's demands around European security were denied, and it initially spread from the places where Russia historically had most support: universities.
> The moment I made up my mind about this was reading the following words written by a maintainer within the kernel community:
> "we are the thin blue line"
> This isn't okay. This isn't creating an inclusive environment. This isn't okay with the current political situation especially in the US. A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be removed until they learn. Learn what those words mean for a lot of marginalized people. Learn about what horrors it evokes in their minds.
I opened the article relatively certain about the nature of the complaint.
100% confirmed.
Seriously? Really? It seems Herbst is the one that wants a non-inclusive environment (ie. exactly
conforming to his personal political preferences). Additionally this looks like an excuse as he was already admittedly burned out.
In any case, good luck to Herbst in his future endeavors, hopefully he can develop a thicker skin.
It's as predictable as it is concerning how much the Rust community has hitched its wagon to the US progressive movement. Is this an attempt to remove an adversary in an engineering debate by appealing to a political alliance? Or an attempt to remove a political adversary by appealing to engineering arguments? Either way, both politics and engineering are bound to suffer for it.
If the rule is you break it, you fix it, I don't see why it should be anything different for a multi-language project. If the feature makes technical sense and people want it, it should happen.
Guy complaints about a maintainer not being inclusive and wants the person who said some certain words that hurt his sensibility to be removed because it does not match their personal standards. So much for inclusivity.
lolinder|1 year ago
Give up 70% of the way through the hyperstitious slur cascade
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/give-up-seventy-percent-of-...
I've yet to see anyone put this quote in context to show that the user of it meant it to be racist or offensive. Absent that context I take issue with people singling it out as an example of toxicity.
I'm not even convinced that we've hit the 70% mark on this hyperstitious slur cascade. I know a lot of people take offense at it, and if this keeps going then we'll certainly hit 70% within the tech world very quickly as people drop the phrase like a hot potato, but as of right now I'm not comfortable with the way that this maintainer is being attacked for a single phrase.
If they've demonstrated a pattern of toxicity, let's talk about that pattern, not about one hyperstitious slur.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF|1 year ago
That said, for many people, it is a hostile phrase that refers to privileges that law enforcement provide for each other and those close to them but not others. Things like letting people out of tickets, misapplying situational judgements to make a victim look like the perpetrator, lying on the stand about it, etc.
In that context, it’s a phrase with bad optics. I see presumably why they chose the phrase but that also presumes they were not aware of how it’s used by many American police officers. It would otherwise seem incredibly tone deaf; well past the 70% figure among those circles.
r0ckarong|1 year ago
inglor_cz|1 year ago
Not just that, he basically demanded that one of them has to go:
"A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be removed until they learn."
The word "crybully" comes to mind.
James_K|1 year ago
lolinder|1 year ago
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF|1 year ago
perihelions|1 year ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 ("We are the "thin blue line" that is trying to keep the code high quality (kernel.org)", 166 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43036904 ("Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead (marcan.st)", 966 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42926732 ("[flagged] Hector Martin: "Behold, a maintainer sabotaging the Rust for Linux project" (lwn.net)", 22 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42932105 ("A Linux maintainer admitting to attempting to sabotage Rust for Linux project (treehouse.systems)", 14 comments)
boomboomsubban|1 year ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43036904 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42972062
anonfordays|1 year ago
aftbit|1 year ago
hitekker|1 year ago
He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin.
It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.
mirashii|1 year ago
Narishma|1 year ago
hello_moto|1 year ago
[deleted]
rowanG077|1 year ago
4bpp|1 year ago
darthrupert|1 year ago
Looking at what has happened since 2010 and how the vibe has changed, it seems to have been extremely successful.
It started soon after Russia's demands around European security were denied, and it initially spread from the places where Russia historically had most support: universities.
shakezooola|1 year ago
Fidelix|1 year ago
> "we are the thin blue line"
> This isn't okay. This isn't creating an inclusive environment. This isn't okay with the current political situation especially in the US. A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be removed until they learn. Learn what those words mean for a lot of marginalized people. Learn about what horrors it evokes in their minds.
I opened the article relatively certain about the nature of the complaint. 100% confirmed.
Seriously? Really? It seems Herbst is the one that wants a non-inclusive environment (ie. exactly conforming to his personal political preferences). Additionally this looks like an excuse as he was already admittedly burned out.
In any case, good luck to Herbst in his future endeavors, hopefully he can develop a thicker skin.
account42|1 year ago
You have to understand that "inclusive" is newspeak and now pretty much always means that.
shakezooola|1 year ago
4bpp|1 year ago
Narishma|1 year ago
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
unknown|1 year ago
[deleted]
ece|1 year ago
Boogie_Man|1 year ago
ekianjo|1 year ago