[Elixir6419]

It would be nice if instead of the fast charging problem the focus would be shifted to standardized battery packs, that can be field replaced. I don't really want to own 50-100kwh battery. I just want to use the charge in it and happy to pay for that.

[dhosek]

I remember reading an article somewhere which explained why this was an impractical issue. I forget the details, but I think issues like weight, ending up with a battery pack that doesn’t hold its charge well, etc. were all big concerns. Weight seems like it would be a huge problem given that the battery is the largest component of the EV drive train and it’s usually kept along the floor of the EV for weight distribution.

[nradov]

Impractical? Nio is already doing battery swaps at scale in China.

https://hbr.org/2024/05/how-one-chinese-ev-company-made-batt...

[DevelopingElk]

The movement has been towards making batteries structurally integral to the vehicle to save weight in the frame.

[aorloff]

CATL trying it supposedly next year with a rollout of swap stations

[irjustin]

Realistically, this is a pipe dream. China has had a few that are trying this NIO being the most well known.

To me, it's not really viable. The 3 main problems are - The extra costs in a vehicle to allow swapping within say 5 minutes is non-trivial. The physical space required to house X number of batteries ready, X number swap ready is a lot at any moderate volume. Last, Batteries are not universal and now you're constricting either the design of all cars or you have to go to a specific swap station that houses your battery, related to the physical space. I would not accept a battery w/ less volume.

Time will tell if I'm wrong; NIO might do it, but I'm a naysayer for sure.

[maxglute]

> NIO might do it

The main obstacle is battery swap is capex heavy, hence PRC might do it, but most other places, less likely. It's pretty easy to extrapolate PRC auto parking / self driving cars sneaking out during low congestion to hit their battery swap queue. But that is a fairly significant logistics / infra issue when most countries would be lucky to get sufficient fast charging piles in place. Battery volume is probably not an issue since batteries will be rentals for minimum XYZ capacity. And algo might eventually bid for price, i.e. discount rental for partial charge if it means your car go for a swap by itself a couple days earlier.

[jychang]

Would you do it if it was cheaper per kwh? Say you have an EV where any battery you get from the swap station is better than 90% degradation, and you pay $0.40 per kwh for the electricity in the battery- but you get the option to take a battery between 80% and 90% degradation, in which case you get the battery all filled up, but only pay $0.35 per kwh for the electricity in that battery.

[ForOldHack]

Like Henry Ford tried on the Model T: The Model T was offered in three fuels: Gasoline, Electric, and Alcohol. It only took I think less than a year to make it Gasoline only.

[TechDebtDevin]

Is there any universe where we go the electric route instead of gasoline back then? I imagine the range was nothing

[alvah]

Tesla tried battery swapping in 2015 and abandoned it due to a lack of customer interest (and also due to various problems that made the process less straightforward than you'd think). Both the Model S and Model X were designed from the outset to have swappable batteries.

[sporf]

The battery swap feature was implemented only to maximize California clean energy credits. Only enough infrastructure was built to claim the credits.

“In 2013, California revised its Zero Emissions Vehicle credit system so that long-range ZEVs that were able to charge 80% in under 15 minutes earned almost twice as many credits as those that didn’t. Overnight, Tesla’s 85 kWh Model S went from earning four credits per vehicle to seven. Moreover, to earn this dramatic increase in credits, Tesla needed to prove to CARB that such rapid refueling events were possible. By demonstrating battery swap on just one vehicle, Tesla nearly doubled the ZEV credits earned by its entire fleet even if none of them actually used the swap capability.”

[riffraff]

NIO is still working on this and expanding outside China.

They sell a tiny amount of cars still, but hit 500k total production last year, which is not insignificant.

[ggm]

Premature reject. It's working in China, it would work in trucking. "Tesla tried" doesn't mean jack. No car manufacturers want to do this because it means loosing a point of innovation. It has to be regulated to happen at scale. It won't happen but not because it can't work. After all... look at 12v car batteries

[ChuckMcM]

Well it's patented and Tesla doesn't own the patent. But that aside, you trade a different set of problems, specifically what happens if the pack that is put into your car is damaged and as a result of that damage catches fire when it is discharging? That isn't something that happens with gasoline.

I keep hoping flow batteries can overcome their issues as replacing depleted electrolyte with charged electrolyte is much more like 'refueling' in the current sense of the word.

[dboreham]

A patent on the idea that a battery in something that uses a battery can be replaced has to be the world's most preposterous patent.

[starspangled]

Contaminants in fuel can cause damage to cars. I don't know if retailers tend to carry insurance for this but typically they are responsible, although proving it may not be easy. I imagine the risk would be quite rare and fairly well handled with insurance.

What's patented? Seems like a ridiculous patent if it entirely covered all practical manner of swapping batteries to recharge an EV.

[jjallen]

Any gasoline can catch fire though, just like probably any battery can catch fire.

At some point we are going to have to stop comparing gas and electric cars.

[superjan]

A battery can weigh up to half a ton. Because of the weight, you want to keep it at a low position in the car. That is not easy to swap. By contrast consider that you charge your car. For a daily commute, the most practical is to charge it on your driveway or at the office. In my case that means I only have to consider public charging on vacations and longer weekend trips. Now this means my net travel speed is lower then. But I can adjust to that.

[mjan22640]

It is actually practical position for an automated swap. You drive to the position, the door on the ground open, the robot pulls the old battery and installs the new one, no hassle.

[SkyPuncher]

I absolutely do not want that unless there are guarantees around the condition of the batteries.

I can't imagine much worse than being on a road trip and quick swapping to a new battery that you discover, after driving away, has significantly degraded performance and range.

[Elixir6419]

Why would you care if you can just go in and swap it again?

[theshrike79]

Now think about a field you know. Maybe laptops or phones.

Would a standardised battery block in laptops work? The same battery would work in a Frame.work, System76, MacBook air, MacBook pro, a Lenovo Thinkbook and whatever gaming monster there is from Asus.

Sounds stupid, right? It's just as stupid for cars.

And if laptops had battery swapping, would you swap your brand new battery, but empty, to a random one at a swapping station? Would you trust the people and systems that the battery hasn't been tampered with and is in good working order?

[Elixir6419]

I am not sure it is the same. First of all the limitation in usage for a phone/laptop reduces the utility, but for a transportation device it is way worse. On phone/laptop you can use the main functions while charging, but tethered. On a car the main function is the only thing you cant use.

There does not have to have a single battery standard, could be s/m/l, like coincell, aaa, aa etc.

> Would you trust the people and systems that the battery hasn't been tampered with and is in good working order?

Do you trust random utilities/charger manufacture?

> new battery, but empty, to a random one at a swapping station.

Would you care if it is within regulated thresholds and you can get another one any time you want?

[KurSix]

Yet standardization across manufacturers is a huge hurdle... Like every automaker has different battery designs, voltages, and cooling systems optimized for their vehicles. Plus, swapping stations require massive infrastructure investments and a steady supply of charged packs, which means even more logistics and costs.

[Elixir6419]

is that infra more expensive than preparing for the holiday events when half the nation decides to relocate to somewhere else and they need on the go charging? Not just the charging stations, but grid usage etc.

[fritzo]

Right, like propane tanks for my bbq

[BiteCode_dev]

Would slow down battery innovation. Form factor is constantly changing right now.

[mola]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)

[otabdeveloper4]

> that can be field replaced

Incredibly dangerous to put naked electrical connectors right next to something flammable that you can't even extinguish.