I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.
I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.
Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.
I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this.
They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.
I'd love to take a stance like that, but the reality is I've already sunk about 6 hours total into the whole operation, and I have quite limited time for my home maintenance + improvement projects as it is (my bench currently has a new faucet set to fix the leaky bathroom faucet, as well as an exhaust fan to fix the broken one in our bathroom... and those are just the things that are currently broken, not the dozen or so routine maintenance things I am behind on otherwise!).
If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours (and wrangling that dumb dishwasher back into the minivan, probably with some water spilling out this time, causing more pain since it'll cause minivan issues lol), I don't know if I have the time for it.
That also assumes I can find a suitable replacement unit (and wrangle it, and install it) without seriously disrupting the dish-handling routine in the house for another day or three!
Sadly, that means Bosch wins this time. But if I never buy another Bosch device again (I have one of their water heaters, and a fancy ear thermometer that I rather liked...), maybe they will lose in the long run.
Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
Those products will earn profits to the producers after sale by bundling ads onto the app. Since the cost of producing the networking is less than projected sales, every unit will sooner or later have said networking and app. The app-only dishwashers will then out compete other dishwashers, slowly replacing all alternatives to app-only dishwashers outside "industry dishwashers" which will be app-free but cost 10x that of a dishwasher sold to the private consumer.
Try buy a TV without smart features. You can, but then you got to buy one intended for hotels and pay the market price for products intended for that market.
Have to agree. The bottom line is that manufactures will continue to pull this trick as long as consumers keep buying. Even Jeff himself says that
> I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff.
But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doing so (because he’s busy, because he couldn’t wait a few days hand washing, because of family constraints), but presumably.. you shouldn’t?
So I don’t get it. It’s precisely the “do as I say, not as I do” that we have this problem. There is an immediate benefit to the saying part, on social media, the social signalling, etc (especially immediate for a YouTuber), but not so much for the doing part.
And I say that as largely a supporter, Jeff Geerling seems to be one of the good guys. Which I guess is why we are where we are?
Jeff's opposition to this technology is not based on principle, rather it is based on the question of convenience of a few hours of time. A lot of commenters reacting to this story based on principle should take note of how many others gripe but roll over for it. Certainly, vendors are taking note of that.
I sooooo want to return our Ninja Creami Deluxe, recently purchased at Costco. If it sits for ~ an hour or more after use then it cannot be turned on again until unplugged and plugged back in to the wall. From Googling, it seems that Ninja started out doing warranty replacements for the issue but now have shifted to "its a safety feature".
I know it would be super easy to return or exchange at Costco. But my spouse likes it, I am pretty certain that any replacement unit is going to have the exact same issue, and it was a pretty good price.
I'm not sure there's enough consumers to fight back against this. Most consumers are too focused on other things to worry about being locked in or screwed over by appliance companies. Acceptance.
One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet -- instead, go to industry literature, and read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across brands and models.
But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
Download and read the manual before buying a product. I avoided buying an air filter recently because the manual made it clear that there was no auto mode, which I would have expected at the price.
Downloading the manual may have helped Jeff dodge this product.
Web search has become a nightmare for consumer purchase research - it's all affiliate driven. Even the old traditional trusted names are just phoning it in with affiliate content churn.
> Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up,
I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.
and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device.
I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't.
hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type attacks.
> don't read consumer reports or reviews by randos on the internet
I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and soy sauce. Apparently this issue was around for at least three years (into today).
Not sure why that got passed over by all the professionals (maybe a lack of time spent with the product), but I was glad I read the consumer reviews as well.
I ask my friends and colleagues. Lots of them have Bosch dishwashers and they all love them, without exception. That's why I bought mine. Ask me in 10 years whether that was wise...
I usually go through manuals if I’m worried about something specific. There’s no need to rely on reviews when you can get an answer directly from the manufacturer.
Jeff shows manual explicitly saying when you need an app, so this could have been avoided.
> When I posted on social media about this, a lot of people told me to return it.
>
> But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.
I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.
But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.
I live in an apartment building whose walls don't really attenuate RF at all. And like most of the building I have a Samsung "smart" TV. So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.
The manual didn't include instructions for turning off Bluetooth, and when I called Samsung they said you in fact can't turn it off. I could simply pull the antenna, I guess, but it seems to be integrated with the WiFi so then I couldn't watch any streaming.
I ended up changing the BT device name to "STOP USING THIS ONE" but apparently nobody reads it because I still get the connection requests daily.
Jeff, you left out the juiciest part of the story, which is that the Bosch Home Connect iPhone app hoovers up your Search History data. Anyone know how much that data is worth? I made the same mistake of buying the 500 and it's just so ridiculous that I need to reveal my most intimate Google moments to a dishwasher in order to use its advanced features which I won't. When I was building Internet technology in the 1990s and optimistic about the future, never in my fiercest nightmares could I have predicted that this is how normies would use it and that it'd be considered normal. What kind of monster do you have to be to use home appliances as leverage to spy on people? There seriously needs to be a different planet for people like us.
And all this stuff could work directly locally, it'd even make alternatives possible and it'd be an immensely better experience. It would eliminate the latency it takes for the requests to reach halfway across the world and back. It would also eliminate a lot of the privacy and security concerns.
What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
I'm hoping that the Matter protocol will help with local home automation. It is designed to work on the local network using IPv6 networking, with gateway between Wifi and Thread. The downside is that it is complicated from everybody involved in design.
The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to Apple, Google, etc.
I recently bought and installed the same dishwasher. I also don't like the app requirement to access some features. But contrary to some of the other comments, I feel the need point out that it's still a fully functional dishwasher even if you never connect it to Wifi.
You will miss out on a few "advanced" features, but it washes dishes really well. I read the manual before I bought it, and I got the performance I expected. I would have preferred to have access to a rinse cycle and a cleaning mode, but I don't need them. It definitely gets my dishes much cleaner than the old failing one I replaced, and I have no complaints so far about its performance.
A few more notes while I'm here:
Yes, partially unscrew the front legs with a wrench before you put it in place. They are too tight. Partially adjust the rear leg before you put it in too. The diagram is confusing and may not adjust the leg in the direction you think it will. I wonder if this is what happened to Jeff.
The dishwasher apparently will refuse to connect to a Wifi network without a password. For mostly philosophical reasons I don't want to add a password to my network, and this is part of the reason I haven't connected it.
Note that the Costco version (at least in my area) is a subtly different model that does not include the automatic door opening "Auto Air" feature. Since this is one of the best features of this model, you should not buy it from Costco unless you verify it comes with this.
The "touchless" buttons are annoying. It frequently beeps and comes to life when I'm just trying to open the door. The interface as a whole isn't great, and I sometimes worry it's not set correctly. But once you figure it out, it will wash your dishes quietly and effectively.
Seems like this Home Connect stuff does support local only/no cloud mode[0]. I recently discovered my parent's kitchen hardware is all Bosch with Home Connect and was afraid I had to run it through their cloud. But there seems to be some decent effort done in getting it to work with Home Assistant[1].
When buying a new washing machine and dryer, I actually spent hours extra to find models /without/ app requirements last summer.
There were so few of them that did what I wanted, and also didn't require internet access that I'm worried the next time around there will be no more options where I can elect to keep them off the net. :/
While CR has the ability to filter by Wifi or not, as time goes on, this will drop to zero. What they don't do is say if the functionality is gated behind 1) an app and 2) behind internet connectivity, they aren't the same.
I was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha flirted with this then backed off. My receiver is connected to the LAN since this is helpful for streaming, and it has a companion MusicCast app for controlling it on the WiFi or playing audio stored on your phone. No messing around with accounts, it just works. A year or two ago the app started regularly pestering you to register an online account. I, along with who knows how many other people, sent them an annoyed email promising that if an account ever became required my receiver would spend the rest of its days on OPTICAL1 with a different smart frontend. Quietly, the in-app popups stopped. For now, life is good.
By the end of the day, most kitchen and laundry appliances are a bunch of electric motors, pumps, solenoids, compressors, resistances, buttons, switches, and sensors.
If this trend continues, we will have more and more people having bricked appliances as badly designed web services are inevitably sunset, as mobile apps without updates become incompatible with new versions of their phone OS and get delisted from App Stores by the manufactures. Or then, Wi-Fi standards will change, and the appliance won't be able to connect to the network unless you keep an obsolete and by then insecure hotspot just to serve it.
Given that, I wonder if there isn't going to be a business opportunity for creating after-market appliance controllers. Just a board that you can use to replace the one that came with your appliance, but without any factory-controlled web-service nonsense.
This is already a thing for split air-conditioner units. In fact, I even saved one with such an aftermarket board.
This is not only a problem with dishwashers, but a general trend with many electronic devices.
We see the same in the air quality monitoring industry, where more and more manufacturers lockdown their devices and make them cloud only operable. We at AirGradient are open source hardware (and can run completely local) and we are very successful with it. So things like this are actually opening up the market for new entrants or existing companies to highlight the benefits of non-cloud models for the consumers.
So I do hope that these kind of post like from Jeff Geerling create more awareness also among the normal consumers to change their buying behavior and bulk that trend.
I was in a similar situation with a clothes dryer dying where the repair required a board that was half the price of a new one. A key difference is that I had a professional appliance repair guy look at it and he determined it needed a new board. Rather than buy a new machine like Jeff did, I made the opposite decision and paid for the board. It has been a few years since that and I have been happy with the result. I was spared from having a dryer that did not match the washing machine so I not only saved the half the cost of the dryer, but the cost of a new washer too.
- Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi, and an internet connection, and etc.
- Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.
- Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US States, or countries, or the EU, because ...
And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid them.
I work on embedded appliance software at my job. A few comments:
It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application at all. This is a symptom of the software being under-tested imo. I have personally written tooling to integration test the whole application for a few appliances, and for one appliance initializing the application 56 times took over 1 second. On a modern machine it should take milliseconds. After profiling I found that 99%+ of our time was spent servicing a subscription tied to all events, that really only needed to subscribe to just one or two.
Along with that there are other reasons for long apparent boot up times:
- Waiting for other boards to connect and talk to each other. Your UI can't do anything until it knows the state from the main control.
- Randomized delays to prevent current surges after a blackout. You'll see this on ACs or other appliances that might have hundreds of identical units in a building.
- Waiting for flash memory to be readable
All of this adds up to seconds of boot time. Yet ultimately none of this matters to the business people because we're an appliance company, NOT a software company. Our software is mostly incidental to having a functioning product, and boot times could go way higher without the business being worried. Though recently yes, we have entered the data market hence the push for smart features. Word to the wise, avoid any appliance with Android in it if you don't like the idea of forced connected features!
I unfortunately don't have any solutions to most of the problems presented in the article. All I can do is continue to try writing bullet-proof software and push back against forced connected features.
This is why I buy “commercial” appliances when I can. My speed queen washer and dryer each have two knobs and a start button. Thats all you need. I doubt I will need to ever replace them.
I guess this is an American market thing. Most Bosch dishwashers in EU do not come with this stupid app. Almost all have displays and physical buttons.
I have this same dishwasher in my apartment (installed by my landlord). It’s not just that it requires a cloud connection for the features, but that the setup is so janky and bug-ridden that I’ve been unable to successfully make it happen.
[+] [-] dorfsmay|1 year ago|reply
I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.
I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.
Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.
[+] [-] klipklop|1 year ago|reply
They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.
[+] [-] geerlingguy|1 year ago|reply
If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours (and wrangling that dumb dishwasher back into the minivan, probably with some water spilling out this time, causing more pain since it'll cause minivan issues lol), I don't know if I have the time for it.
That also assumes I can find a suitable replacement unit (and wrangle it, and install it) without seriously disrupting the dish-handling routine in the house for another day or three!
Sadly, that means Bosch wins this time. But if I never buy another Bosch device again (I have one of their water heaters, and a fancy ear thermometer that I rather liked...), maybe they will lose in the long run.
Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
[+] [-] belorn|1 year ago|reply
Try buy a TV without smart features. You can, but then you got to buy one intended for hotels and pay the market price for products intended for that market.
[+] [-] wrasee|1 year ago|reply
> I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff.
But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doing so (because he’s busy, because he couldn’t wait a few days hand washing, because of family constraints), but presumably.. you shouldn’t?
So I don’t get it. It’s precisely the “do as I say, not as I do” that we have this problem. There is an immediate benefit to the saying part, on social media, the social signalling, etc (especially immediate for a YouTuber), but not so much for the doing part.
And I say that as largely a supporter, Jeff Geerling seems to be one of the good guys. Which I guess is why we are where we are?
[+] [-] sitkack|1 year ago|reply
And Consumer Reports (which I am a "member") needs to call them out and hard for this.
[+] [-] loteck|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] 1over137|1 year ago|reply
That only works if other options don't have these requirements.
Having recently bought new appliances, they almost all have some features gated behind "the cloud".
Even many exhaust fans (that go above your stove) have wifi now!
[+] [-] aaronax|1 year ago|reply
I know it would be super easy to return or exchange at Costco. But my spouse likes it, I am pretty certain that any replacement unit is going to have the exact same issue, and it was a pretty good price.
I'm sorry for being a bad consumer!
[+] [-] chrsw|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] btbuildem|1 year ago|reply
But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
[+] [-] nikcub|1 year ago|reply
Downloading the manual may have helped Jeff dodge this product.
Web search has become a nightmare for consumer purchase research - it's all affiliate driven. Even the old traditional trusted names are just phoning it in with affiliate content churn.
[+] [-] odysseus|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] brikym|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] paradox460|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] m463|1 year ago|reply
I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.
and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device.
I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't.
hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type attacks.
[+] [-] Izkata|1 year ago|reply
Electric ovens can be terrifying when they fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrL_9K7rCz8
Mine was throwing a lot more sparks than in this video. It sounded like fireworks were going off in my kitchen.
[+] [-] jjice|1 year ago|reply
I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and soy sauce. Apparently this issue was around for at least three years (into today).
Not sure why that got passed over by all the professionals (maybe a lack of time spent with the product), but I was glad I read the consumer reviews as well.
[+] [-] MarkusWandel|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] oblio|1 year ago|reply
I'm joining the others in saying I don't know where to find this info...
[+] [-] tchalla|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] StrLght|1 year ago|reply
Jeff shows manual explicitly saying when you need an app, so this could have been avoided.
[+] [-] potato3732842|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jmholla|1 year ago|reply
>
> But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.
I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.
But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.
[+] [-] _carbyau_|1 year ago|reply
See how Bosch likes the power of web ads.
[+] [-] kulahan|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] monksy|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ycombinatrix|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] sitkack|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bandrami|1 year ago|reply
The manual didn't include instructions for turning off Bluetooth, and when I called Samsung they said you in fact can't turn it off. I could simply pull the antenna, I guess, but it seems to be integrated with the WiFi so then I couldn't watch any streaming.
I ended up changing the BT device name to "STOP USING THIS ONE" but apparently nobody reads it because I still get the connection requests daily.
[+] [-] jart|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Hackbraten|1 year ago|reply
[0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...
[+] [-] Avamander|1 year ago|reply
What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
[+] [-] ianburrell|1 year ago|reply
The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to Apple, Google, etc.
[+] [-] nkurz|1 year ago|reply
You will miss out on a few "advanced" features, but it washes dishes really well. I read the manual before I bought it, and I got the performance I expected. I would have preferred to have access to a rinse cycle and a cleaning mode, but I don't need them. It definitely gets my dishes much cleaner than the old failing one I replaced, and I have no complaints so far about its performance.
A few more notes while I'm here:
Yes, partially unscrew the front legs with a wrench before you put it in place. They are too tight. Partially adjust the rear leg before you put it in too. The diagram is confusing and may not adjust the leg in the direction you think it will. I wonder if this is what happened to Jeff.
The dishwasher apparently will refuse to connect to a Wifi network without a password. For mostly philosophical reasons I don't want to add a password to my network, and this is part of the reason I haven't connected it.
Note that the Costco version (at least in my area) is a subtly different model that does not include the automatic door opening "Auto Air" feature. Since this is one of the best features of this model, you should not buy it from Costco unless you verify it comes with this.
The "touchless" buttons are annoying. It frequently beeps and comes to life when I'm just trying to open the door. The interface as a whole isn't great, and I sometimes worry it's not set correctly. But once you figure it out, it will wash your dishes quietly and effectively.
[+] [-] aequitas|1 year ago|reply
[0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ [1] https://github.com/hcpy2-0/hcpy
[+] [-] NegatioN|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sitkack|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] dredmorbius|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] thombles|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sitkack|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] elzbardico|1 year ago|reply
If this trend continues, we will have more and more people having bricked appliances as badly designed web services are inevitably sunset, as mobile apps without updates become incompatible with new versions of their phone OS and get delisted from App Stores by the manufactures. Or then, Wi-Fi standards will change, and the appliance won't be able to connect to the network unless you keep an obsolete and by then insecure hotspot just to serve it.
Given that, I wonder if there isn't going to be a business opportunity for creating after-market appliance controllers. Just a board that you can use to replace the one that came with your appliance, but without any factory-controlled web-service nonsense.
This is already a thing for split air-conditioner units. In fact, I even saved one with such an aftermarket board.
[+] [-] ahaucnx|1 year ago|reply
We see the same in the air quality monitoring industry, where more and more manufacturers lockdown their devices and make them cloud only operable. We at AirGradient are open source hardware (and can run completely local) and we are very successful with it. So things like this are actually opening up the market for new entrants or existing companies to highlight the benefits of non-cloud models for the consumers.
So I do hope that these kind of post like from Jeff Geerling create more awareness also among the normal consumers to change their buying behavior and bulk that trend.
[+] [-] ryao|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bell-cot|1 year ago|reply
- Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi, and an internet connection, and etc.
- Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.
- Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US States, or countries, or the EU, because ...
And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid them.
[+] [-] budro|1 year ago|reply
It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application at all. This is a symptom of the software being under-tested imo. I have personally written tooling to integration test the whole application for a few appliances, and for one appliance initializing the application 56 times took over 1 second. On a modern machine it should take milliseconds. After profiling I found that 99%+ of our time was spent servicing a subscription tied to all events, that really only needed to subscribe to just one or two.
Along with that there are other reasons for long apparent boot up times:
- Waiting for other boards to connect and talk to each other. Your UI can't do anything until it knows the state from the main control.
- Randomized delays to prevent current surges after a blackout. You'll see this on ACs or other appliances that might have hundreds of identical units in a building.
- Waiting for flash memory to be readable
All of this adds up to seconds of boot time. Yet ultimately none of this matters to the business people because we're an appliance company, NOT a software company. Our software is mostly incidental to having a functioning product, and boot times could go way higher without the business being worried. Though recently yes, we have entered the data market hence the push for smart features. Word to the wise, avoid any appliance with Android in it if you don't like the idea of forced connected features!
I unfortunately don't have any solutions to most of the problems presented in the article. All I can do is continue to try writing bullet-proof software and push back against forced connected features.
[+] [-] dsalzman|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] bgnn|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] dhosek|1 year ago|reply
So I just live without the extra features.
[+] [-] bitwize|1 year ago|reply
Don't laugh. Some HP printers refuse to print, after an initial "free trial" of 25 pages, until you register the printer with the HP app.