(Denim head) Anecdata - buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size. It's likely different people/factories making them, but often you'll find variation in size/denim even when the labelling in the same. One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned. Completely agree with going 'smaller' brand if you want consistency though (and that's a whole different world).
But better tip - (if you're not looking for 'smart' denim) buy from eBay. Only buy pairs where everything has been measured properly (waist, inside leg, rise, etc) so you can get close to what you know you fits. You can find 20+ year old Levis for less than $20 - the denim is heavier, the quality is good and they have that perfect 'broken in' feel that makes the jeans feel like your best friend. Plus you can afford to try a few pairs to find ones you love.
Same experience ordering Lucky brand jeans… from Lucky themselves! Same exact model would result in different material composition / origin country. It could be 0-2% spandex/100-98% cotton or something. I wound up making a little spreadsheet to try to figure out which ones I liked the best (origin country, materials)
I worked at the Gap and Banana Republic all through high school and college. This was well known amongst the sales staff. There's a small amount of variation between each pair of jeans because of how they're cut and how the material stretches during cutting. Also just different people on different sewing machines makes a difference. We always advised customers to try on a few pairs of the size they were looking for to get one that fit best.
I had the same experience when buying from Macy's, which I felt would avoid any possible shennanigans from Amazon. Same story. 4 pair of the same style and size, but different colors. All fit differently.
> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned
My understanding is that this isn't tied to Amazon or any specific retailer. But rather the cutting process for the fabric. They'll cut large stacks of denim cloth in a single go, and that's not an exact process. And that's why you can buy multiple supposedly identical pairs and notice differences.
> One pair of 32/32 might feel 'off' and the next is the best pair you've ever owned.
Honestly, even in the store, that's been a thing forever. You'd have to go to the department or mall store and try on a whole bunch.
Lately I've switched to a brand that has stretchier fabric (so small variations in size matter less) and more long-leg sizes (my size is 31 or 32/34 and difficult to find in department stores) and been content.
> buying Levis from Amazon (or any other store), pick up at least a couple of pairs in the same size.
At least for Amazon, keep in mind that they’re likely not put back into normal circulation if you return them so you’re creating waste where there doesn’t have to be.
Any advice on how to shop for older jeans? I have >10-year old Lee jeans that are much better quality than what I can buy now. I didn't think it was possible to find such old stock of clothes but I'm willing to try.
> [...] one pair ordered from Amazon, one pair sent by Levi’s for each style. [...] It seemed the tipster was half right. The tests confirmed a lot of variability between two pairs of the same jeans — you could buy the same style from Amazon and Levi’s and feel a difference. But it didn’t add up to gaps in quality; there was no indication that the Levi’s from Amazon were worse.
All this time, researchers have been wasting money on sample sizes larger than 1 before drawing conclusions.
Also, I find the word "commingling" nowhere in the article. It's very relevant to the question of what product you're receiving when you buy from Amazon.
Its journalism not research, this is absolutely the norm for any type of product coverage, e.g "my [press] car (with 50k in upgrades) had an incredible sound system, the cabin noise was non-existent, and the ($2000 extra) paint looks incredible). Even wirecutter does n=1 coverage, and it shows! You expect all LL Bean sheets to feel the same?! They probably ship a million sets a year.
FWIW and only anecdata, I have been using the same Buy It Again link for a pair of Levi's on Amazon for about a decade and they vary wildly from order to order.
> All this time, researchers have been wasting money on sample sizes larger than 1 before drawing conclusions
It's a case study. We should, as a public, be scientifically literate enough to parse them. If someone wants to take the bait and publish a double-blind study, by all means. In the meantime, there is more signal than noise in this article.
I don't know if Levis are, but I have absolutely ordered other branded items that are different on amazon compared to in a store, including entirely different and lower quality fabric on amazon.
It's not at all surprising for anything to happen after co-mingled inventory, which should absolutely be illegal.
Walmart created a business practice where many black Friday deals were lower quality products produced explicitly for black Friday sales. So underhanded deceptive business practice in large retailers isn't anything new.
Without a regulatory authority we can expect companies to act in decreasingly bad faith, because who will provide consequences, the other definitely not colluding competitor?
I ordered the same model of Gilette razor that I get from Target and the ones from Amazon didn't last nearly as long. Either they were counterfeit or sort of binning was done by Gilette. But the ones from Amazon lasted very literally half as long.
People, read the article. The conclusion is not as "terrible" as what you may infer from the title (we all think the worst I guess).
Basically, it says Levi's jeans are manufactured in several different countries, so that most likely accounts for the variations. And that some of the jeans she bought from Amazon were actually better than non-amazon.
Still. I prefer buying from the Amazon competition in my country. Amazon regularly sends me wrong items.
I've noticed that "outlet stores" (stores with names like "<Brand X> Outlet" that you can find at outlet malls, such as the San Francisco Premium Outlets) sometimes sell SKUs that aren't sold by the company normally. Likewise, on Black Friday, you might find inventory in stores that isn't there normally. If an item isn't normally in stock, it's retail price is only hypothetical, and they can get away with saying that it's "60% off" or whatever.
Once upon a time, outlet stores generally were all end-of-season, B-stock, etc... but fickle consumers didn't like that it was possible to go to an outlet store and not find anything to buy, so the brands started making cheaper "outlet" lines to fill the shelves.
Stuff like this, or the JC Penny experiment years ago where the new executive team tried to get rid of deep discount sales and have consistently low prices only to be met with consumer uproar, make me really glad that I don't work anywhere near consumer retail.
Coach Outlet’s revenue is something like 10x the revenue of Coach proper. In some cases, the outlet is the primary brand, or sometimes just an entirely separate brand.
I don't know about Amazon, but years ago I read an article about Walmart that made the case that products sold there from the same brand tend to be worse than those available elsewhere. Levi's jeans were an example.
For Walmart, they have scale and a monomaniacal focus on lowest cost. Each time a contract with a vendor is renegotiated, Walmart demands a lower cost, and they're big enough they get it. The predicable effect is the vendors skimp and cut costs on what they send to Walmart because they're under so much pressure, and Walmart doesn't care as long as they get a lower price. That can mean vendors doing stuff like binning by quality, and sending the worst stuff to Walmart; using a special grocery-store shrink ray for Walmart, special Walmart-specific cost-reduced designs; etc.
Like the majority of "Don't buy from Amazon" articles I've read, this one doesn't seem to make any mention (unless I missed it!) of if these Levis were shipped by _and_ sold by Amazon.
There's no doubt Amazon has a problem with fake or imposter products. But every post I seem to read about this is people who unwittingly by from a marketplace seller.
Of course Amazon should do better to regulate those marketplace sellers, but it seems similar to me to someone buying a Rolex from a street peddler in Times Square and being shocked it isn't the real thing.
I've heard that even shipped and sold by Amazon isn't a guarantee because of how they lump inventory together. I haven't run into the problem myself, but I still buy electronics from Best Buy or direct from the company rather than Amazon much of the time, just to avoid the chance of getting a fake from their comingled inventory.
This isn't a "Don't buy from Amazon" article and the conclusion of the article is that while there's a difference it's quite plausible that they aren't fake.
No matter how hard I try, I cannot make two pairs of jeans that are identical.
Same pattern, same denim, same person making them (me), they don't fit/feel the same.
Consistent results when using fabric is hard. Also keep in mind that good denim is practically sheet metal in comparison to most fabrics, so on one hand easier to get consistent results, but on the other hand, even small differences are more noticeable than something lighter or (god forbid) stretchy.
You cannot just engineer your way out of some of the challenges inherit in garment construction (trust me, Ive tried).
Not Amazon but I bought some Levi's trousers from their brand outlet in Woodbury Commons and the quality is so much better than the stuff I usually see outside US (not sure why/how because all of it probably gets made somewhere in Asia). Also, there are multiple lengths available for a given waist size so you retain the original hem stitching compared to the cut-and-stitch common in non-US locations.
i have had issues with clothing I think is inferior quality and likely counterfeit from amazon -- including when buying from what looks like "official" brand stores on Amazon. One example is Gold Toe socks.
I have wondered if even when buying from what looks like an official amazon brand store, you can still get product from multiple suppliers/locations, including some that have counterfeits? Anyone know if this is feasible?
It doesn't seem likely to me that (eg) Levi's or Gold Toe are doing this on purpose. It would also mean it would be hard to 'test' because you might get different things on different orders, it's not that the entire amazon supply is counterfeit, but that counterfeit stuff is in there somehow.
I've made two big purchases from Amazon in the last year and had to return both because the supposedly new item was obviously a return (one had missing pieces, the other had visible damage). It really is at the point where you can't trust Amazon to ship you what you actually purchased due to how they manage inventory.
> I have wondered if even when buying from what looks like an official amazon brand store, you can still get product from multiple suppliers/locations, including some that have counterfeits? Anyone know if this is feasible?
Yes, it's called inventory commingling, there are plenty explanations online. The TL;DR is that if two sellers claim to have the same item, amazon will ship the item from the closest warehouse rather than from the seller you bought from.
The only pair of Darn Tough socks I've had trouble with, I bought on Amazon. I'd bought others on there, and they were fine, but these looked and felt odd and developed holes in strange places after like five wears. That'd have been poor performance for a $2 pair of cotton socks, let alone a $20ish pair of supposedly tough-wearing socks. Normally, Darn Tough wear well for so long that the high prices aren't actually high on a per-wear basis, but these? Yeah, I stopped buying stuff on Amazon in general after that (I still buy Darn Tough, but straight from their site)
What makes Levi's "genuine" given the diversity within Levis' supply chain quoted from the article below? Is a cane sugar Coke from Mexico a "genuine" Coke when it is imported to the US, where it is made with corn syrup? [0]
Levi’s sources its fabric from dozens of mills across the world, from luxury
supplier Candiani in Italy to sites in India, Bangladesh, Mexico, and Turkey.
The six pairs I tested were manufactured in three places: Cambodia, Macau,
and Mexico. The company’s supply chain is vast, and to some extent, it makes
sense that jeans made to the same specifications from different mills, dye
facilities, and factories would result in different products.
The bigger question for me is if Levi’s from outlet stores is worse quality - I’ve heard that originally outlets sold surplus, but when they realized it was a good business bringing lots of customers they started making inferior products specifically for the outlet market. Maybe it’s not true, but I had 3 pairs fall apart and it’s made me stop buying Levi’s. I’m interested in ways brands can damage their reputation for short term gains, but never knew if this one is true or a rumor
From what I understand this is a Levis thing. They supposedly use lots of different factories where the product has a surprisingly wide range. For example, one size from one factory will be noticeably bigger or smaller than other. Stretchiness seems to vary also as well as tightness.
I had honestly thought this was my imagination of years of using them, but ran into more than one person shopping for jeans that randomly brought this up. I guess Levis super fans can spot each other.
Lots of companies DO make different skus for different retailers. I don't know if Levis is doing this with amazon.
A friend of mine worked in construction and said paint from a retail store was thicker and better, compared to the "same paint" from home depot. I think it might be the same paint, with a special "home depot" sku for paint that is more watery or somehow made at lower cost.
Here's an (archived) article talking about name brands and walmart:
Personally, I have found amazon with name brands to be hit or miss. It seems you might get a name brand through an intermediary (like a retail store) when the name brand won't sell through amazon itself.
Wrangler 13MWZ for the win... Mexican co-workers turned me on to them and I have never looked back. Heavy duty, well made, and a good value. Keep in mind they are cowboy cut, 14.5 oz., with no stretch.
I wore Levis 501s and 505s for decades then gave up about 15 years ago due to their severe drop in denim quality and jump in price at my main source (Kohl's). I find they wear out in less than a year now.
I switched to All American Clothing AA101s and Duluth Trading Ballroom relaxed denim (not flex). The Duluths are durable, look like denim should, fit consistently, are triple stitched and gusseted, and sell for only $60. And gladly, neither of these jeans contains any elastic.
I don't know about Levis, but I can attest that Ernie Ball guitar strings from Amazon are different / crappy. It is almost like Amazon is selling knock-offs or something.
I actually order a bunch of Levi's to try on from Amazon last year. I wasn't expecting much out of Levi's since there denim has felt very thin at every physical store I have went to, but the sale price was good. Every pair I recieved had pretty good quality denim, like the denim they sold from 20 years ago. They all had pretty close fits to each other, so I kept all of them. I guess I will pay more attention to country of origin in the future.
[+] [-] iamben|11 months ago|reply
But better tip - (if you're not looking for 'smart' denim) buy from eBay. Only buy pairs where everything has been measured properly (waist, inside leg, rise, etc) so you can get close to what you know you fits. You can find 20+ year old Levis for less than $20 - the denim is heavier, the quality is good and they have that perfect 'broken in' feel that makes the jeans feel like your best friend. Plus you can afford to try a few pairs to find ones you love.
[+] [-] mike503|11 months ago|reply
It’s crazy.
[+] [-] jonahhorowitz|11 months ago|reply
Here's a quick shot of what the cutting machine looks like: https://youtu.be/oBt85Jgjvng?si=UAU0Jj4q_Vztmi5K&t=680
[+] [-] hydrogen7800|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] jghn|11 months ago|reply
My understanding is that this isn't tied to Amazon or any specific retailer. But rather the cutting process for the fabric. They'll cut large stacks of denim cloth in a single go, and that's not an exact process. And that's why you can buy multiple supposedly identical pairs and notice differences.
[+] [-] dismalaf|11 months ago|reply
Honestly, even in the store, that's been a thing forever. You'd have to go to the department or mall store and try on a whole bunch.
Lately I've switched to a brand that has stretchier fabric (so small variations in size matter less) and more long-leg sizes (my size is 31 or 32/34 and difficult to find in department stores) and been content.
[+] [-] wyclif|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] barbazoo|11 months ago|reply
At least for Amazon, keep in mind that they’re likely not put back into normal circulation if you return them so you’re creating waste where there doesn’t have to be.
[+] [-] eweise|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] wrp|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] vik0|11 months ago|reply
I am talking about in normal, everyday (for me) circumstances, this would likely not apply in dire circumstances
[+] [-] neilv|11 months ago|reply
All this time, researchers have been wasting money on sample sizes larger than 1 before drawing conclusions.
Also, I find the word "commingling" nowhere in the article. It's very relevant to the question of what product you're receiving when you buy from Amazon.
[+] [-] frankfrank13|11 months ago|reply
So yeah its annoying, but you get used to it.
[+] [-] tclancy|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|11 months ago|reply
It's a case study. We should, as a public, be scientifically literate enough to parse them. If someone wants to take the bait and publish a double-blind study, by all means. In the meantime, there is more signal than noise in this article.
[+] [-] hayst4ck|11 months ago|reply
It's not at all surprising for anything to happen after co-mingled inventory, which should absolutely be illegal.
Walmart created a business practice where many black Friday deals were lower quality products produced explicitly for black Friday sales. So underhanded deceptive business practice in large retailers isn't anything new.
Without a regulatory authority we can expect companies to act in decreasingly bad faith, because who will provide consequences, the other definitely not colluding competitor?
[+] [-] jghn|11 months ago|reply
This could easily be counterfeiting via SKU mingling
[+] [-] bena|11 months ago|reply
A lot of companies have general WalMart versions of products.
[+] [-] sixothree|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] joezydeco|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] xtracto|11 months ago|reply
Basically, it says Levi's jeans are manufactured in several different countries, so that most likely accounts for the variations. And that some of the jeans she bought from Amazon were actually better than non-amazon.
Still. I prefer buying from the Amazon competition in my country. Amazon regularly sends me wrong items.
[+] [-] ysavir|11 months ago|reply
Out of curiosity, why is the preference for buying from "the Amazon competition" rather than directly from the manufacturer?
[+] [-] tiahura|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] phendrenad2|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] sethhochberg|11 months ago|reply
Stuff like this, or the JC Penny experiment years ago where the new executive team tried to get rid of deep discount sales and have consistently low prices only to be met with consumer uproar, make me really glad that I don't work anywhere near consumer retail.
[+] [-] soared|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] timdellinger|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] palmotea|11 months ago|reply
For Walmart, they have scale and a monomaniacal focus on lowest cost. Each time a contract with a vendor is renegotiated, Walmart demands a lower cost, and they're big enough they get it. The predicable effect is the vendors skimp and cut costs on what they send to Walmart because they're under so much pressure, and Walmart doesn't care as long as they get a lower price. That can mean vendors doing stuff like binning by quality, and sending the worst stuff to Walmart; using a special grocery-store shrink ray for Walmart, special Walmart-specific cost-reduced designs; etc.
[+] [-] jonheller|11 months ago|reply
There's no doubt Amazon has a problem with fake or imposter products. But every post I seem to read about this is people who unwittingly by from a marketplace seller.
Of course Amazon should do better to regulate those marketplace sellers, but it seems similar to me to someone buying a Rolex from a street peddler in Times Square and being shocked it isn't the real thing.
[+] [-] ziml77|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] plorkyeran|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] joostdecock|11 months ago|reply
Same pattern, same denim, same person making them (me), they don't fit/feel the same.
Consistent results when using fabric is hard. Also keep in mind that good denim is practically sheet metal in comparison to most fabrics, so on one hand easier to get consistent results, but on the other hand, even small differences are more noticeable than something lighter or (god forbid) stretchy.
You cannot just engineer your way out of some of the challenges inherit in garment construction (trust me, Ive tried).
[+] [-] noisy_boy|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] jrochkind1|11 months ago|reply
I have wondered if even when buying from what looks like an official amazon brand store, you can still get product from multiple suppliers/locations, including some that have counterfeits? Anyone know if this is feasible?
It doesn't seem likely to me that (eg) Levi's or Gold Toe are doing this on purpose. It would also mean it would be hard to 'test' because you might get different things on different orders, it's not that the entire amazon supply is counterfeit, but that counterfeit stuff is in there somehow.
[+] [-] tedivm|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] doix|11 months ago|reply
Yes, it's called inventory commingling, there are plenty explanations online. The TL;DR is that if two sellers claim to have the same item, amazon will ship the item from the closest warehouse rather than from the seller you bought from.
[+] [-] alabastervlog|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] randycupertino|11 months ago|reply
I doubt the jeans the author is buying from Amazon are genuine product, maybe just really good knockoffs.
[+] [-] adolph|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 months ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] felixgallo|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] klik99|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] smrtinsert|11 months ago|reply
I had honestly thought this was my imagination of years of using them, but ran into more than one person shopping for jeans that randomly brought this up. I guess Levis super fans can spot each other.
[+] [-] m463|11 months ago|reply
A friend of mine worked in construction and said paint from a retail store was thicker and better, compared to the "same paint" from home depot. I think it might be the same paint, with a special "home depot" sku for paint that is more watery or somehow made at lower cost.
Here's an (archived) article talking about name brands and walmart:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050101092353/http://www.fastco...
Personally, I have found amazon with name brands to be hit or miss. It seems you might get a name brand through an intermediary (like a retail store) when the name brand won't sell through amazon itself.
[+] [-] FuriouslyAdrift|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] randcraw|11 months ago|reply
I switched to All American Clothing AA101s and Duluth Trading Ballroom relaxed denim (not flex). The Duluths are durable, look like denim should, fit consistently, are triple stitched and gusseted, and sell for only $60. And gladly, neither of these jeans contains any elastic.
[+] [-] osigurdson|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] bena|11 months ago|reply
Since WalMart has so much leverage in negotiations, they get to essentially name their price for goods.
Which causes manufacturers to make special WalMart versions of their items.
[+] [-] megaman821|11 months ago|reply
[+] [-] DeathArrow|11 months ago|reply