Maybe the answer is for someone to work on boosting natural caffeine levels in yaupon holly tea.
It grows wild all over the SE US and can withstand multi-year drought or regular floods though it does best in a situation where it gets regular rainfall. You may have some in your own yard used as a hedge plant. I have several large trees on my place. It spreads underground by suckers and will take over an area if you do nothing to contain it. It is very strong once it forms a thicket. I have driven across a yaupon thicket in a seismic buggy and been in a situation where none of the tires were touching the ground as I drove because I was crossing a thick tangle of yaupon that supported the vehicle.
Caffeine levels are lower than coffee beans (40-60 mg versus >150 mg I think). Yaupon does also have theobromines, vasodilators, that are supposed to help it prevent the caffeine crash.
I have some leaves dried and drink it make a tea occasionally when I want a boost but not a cup of coffee level boost. It tastes great and is easy to prepare at home.
There are other sources of information about yaupon holly. It is proposed that the British naturalist who discovered Native Americans using it in their own ceremonies and drinking it casually decided to name it ilex vomitoria not because it was dangerous or poisonous to consume but because since it grew wild in the colonies, it could be a serious competitor to English tea so he used the name to make it less attractive.
> Maybe the answer is for someone to work on boosting natural caffeine levels in yaupon holly tea
The problem isn't getting caffeine, though. You can buy a tub of 200mg caffeine pills for $3. People like coffee. Substituting coffee isn't just a matter of caffeine for drinkers.
Maybe I’m just too deep into coffee at this point, but unless yaupon has different origins, processes, or varietals, I don’t really see folks in the specialty coffee world making the switch.
That said, it is interesting, and I’d definitely give it a try.
Some people do drink coffee just for the caffeine—but those folks aren’t usually worried about beans or brew methods. They’re just as likely to grab an energy drink or whatever’s convenient.
But for a lot of us, coffee’s more than that. There’s a whole culture around it, and I don’t see that going away anytime soon.
Then again, I'm deep into coffee, so I'm probably biased.
I always thought it was called that because it was used by native Americans to make 'black drink' which they consumed ceremonially, tending to vomit afterwards.
The naming of yaupon really ticks me off, of all the things that should get a scientific rename it's yaupon, clearly it was a successful marketing effort by the Empire, er, by the British to knock out a delicious and ubiquitous competitor.
Does it taste better than Yerba Mate? That is definitely an "acquired taste" and while you can get used to it and even like it as much as tea, I don't think it can hold a candle to coffee.
Caffeine production is likely difficult in the face of a drier climate. Caffeine is present in the plant as a pesticide. Insects are a much bigger problem in wet climates over dry.
Having grown up in a wet climate (Chicago) but now living in a dry one (Utah) I can say that finding a droubt tolerant species which concerns itself with pesticide production may be difficult. The same water which coffee relies on is the same stuff pests rely on to reproduce. My mother was from Utah, and she always lamented at the small size of her flowers growing up in Chicago. They are much larger in Utah because they can get big without insects eating them.
(I say all this as a point of interest, but I don't drink coffee myself.)
Not that this applies to you, but coffee is definitely one of the things the Utah-based religions and metacultures should reconsider. Both coffee and tea are extraordinarily healthy compared to their more commonly preferred soda/diet sodas, and much more satisfying. Further, they already allow tea in subculture rulesets like Korea (one can speak with former proselytizers that sold the ideas in the region if doubt is one's initial thoughts). Most trace back their current adherence to cultural baggage of the same diet notions that led to Seventh day Adventists's diets, Wheaties, Kellogg Cereals, etc. Some great articles in Dialogue for the Utah-metaculture based curious. It's clear that the health advice banning coffee is a remnant of earlier times and currently operates as a shibboleth and token of obedience without merit.
> My mother was from Utah, and she always lamented at the small size of her flowers growing up in Chicago. They are much larger in Utah because they can get big without insects eating them.
Counter-anecdote from a Utah local: every time we travel to a "wet" area (any travel but Arizona / Nevada) we always find the climate to be more verdant and flowery. Perhaps ecosystems are more multi-faceted in nature.
Counter-counter-anecdote: Our Roses love the weather here.
That's interesting, it's something I haven't really thought about.
There is some desire for less caffeine as it adds bitterness. Eugenioides, a parent species to arabica the commonly cultivated species, inherently has less caffeine and is said to have a remarkably sweet cup. It's had some attention in barista competitions in the last few years.
As a daily coffee drinker I wouldn't mind less caffeine in coffee. I drink coffee for its flavour (and have tried dozens of different coffees from many different roasters). I have tried some decafs but they just taste different and generally much flatter. They also behave very strangely in my espresso machine, requiring a much finer grind to sustain brewing pressure. From my limited understanding of decaf processes, they all remove more than just caffeine, so the effect on flavour is unavoidable.
One sort-of exception are the mormon tea plants that grow readily in the region. They don't have caffeine, but they do contain several other strong compounds that likely evolved to combat pests. Those plants love hot dry conditions and sandy/rocky soil.
Liberica, which is already popularized in Malaysia, is another type of coffee that’s resistant to heat and droughts.
I’m introducing some plants to a rural community in Panama that had its Robusta crops ruined by the harsh summers we’ve experienced over the past couple of years.
I've had some bags of liberica recently and it is very interesting. A lot of vanilla, overshadowing all other flavors. I prefer arabica, but I am also 100% for ending the arabica/robusta monocrop in favor of more coffee species. It certainly enriches coffee culture!
What puzzles me about the reported birth of coffee is that I wouldn't expect that just eating the cherries would give you that much of a caffeine kick to be noticeable. Yes, there's a little bit of caffeine in them, but far more in the "beans" (seeds).
Tea also has noticeably less caffeine than coffee, yet it has been treated as an energizing drink since it was first discovered.
When you don't have any adrenal stimulants in your diet at all, even a small amount is noticable.
Caffeine also has a metabolic half life of roughly 5 hours in the body, if I remember correctly. A few berries might not do much, but surely a handful will be enough.
If you truly detox from caffeine even extremely small amounts will be noticeable. I knew a woman who couldn't eat chocolate because she found the amount of caffeine to be too high. I didn't even know there was caffeine in chocolate.
They call the cherries cascara, and I have come across them in some specialty coffee shops packaged just like the beans. You can pour hot (not boiling) water over them and prepare a tea-like infusion. It tastes sweet-ish without adding anything else. It gives a pretty noticeable kick to me when I drink it, even though I am a regular coffee drinker. I think it is worth a try, if you haven't done so yet.
Caffeine mgs for various brewed extracts can be lower than a cup of coffee. Even decaf still contains <.002mg, remain static over the designated beverage half-life. For third-wave, light roast blooms, containing more acid, the caffeine content is punctuated.
Other coffee beans is intriguing. Often it's very obvious as to why Arabica won our hearts, though! A while back I tried a coffee bean called Racemosa. The beans are like tiny little pellets, and when you drink it your eyes will widen and go.. "WOW. HGRRRGH. EW. HMM.. INTERESTING. OK, NOT COFFEE AS WE KNOW IT."
Coffee crop failures have been around as long as there have been coffee crops, this idea that current coffee could go extinct is silly. Ideal locations for growing coffee can change and evolve over time, but an extinction event? C’mon. If that were to happen, there would be any people left to care.
Literally everything is blamed on climate change these days. Too much snow? Climate change. Too little snow? Also climate change.
A few years ago I was climbing Mont Blanc and the rockfall due to a warmer winter was blamed on climate change, then a few years later: near-record snow. It’s taking on religious overtones: rather than things happening because it’s God’s will — now it’s “climate.”
I am not denying that the climate changes, I am only calling out that literally every mishap in the natural world is being blamed on it. There is a lot of money in that business.
You don't need an "extinction event" to hurt coffee production so much that drinking it (especially Arabica) becomes an expensive luxury due to lack of supply. Crops that are grown only in particular parts of the world will suffer the most from localized unusual weather patterns, as there won't be production from elsewhere to compensate.
Also, it takes some time to move production elsewhere. And if climate change continues to get worse, you can't really trust any place to have a consistent climate.
So you're not denying climate change, just the effects of it. I'm not sure that's any better.
We call it climate change because warmer weather produces higher variance in weather patterns--you're adding entropy into the system. Overall warmer, but more rain (and mud/rockslides), more wind, more lightning, etc etc.
Climate change doesn't mean it only gets warmer, it means you get more extreme weather outcomes. Your anecdotes are a good example of climate change in action.
I personally love the taste of coffee. If decaffeinated were able to achieve the same flavors, I'd be quite happy with it. Unfortunately, it doesn't taste at all the same.
Most of the world is also deeply addicted to the internet, and we have rapidly normalized it to at least the same degree as caffeine.
I see it all the time: people go out to restaurants, talk for a few minutes, then silently drift into their phones. The connection just evaporates. It feels like we've traded presence for stimulation.
And I'm not saying this as a Luddite. I used to be incredibly excited about technology. I still am, in some ways. But it's hard not to feel like we're losing something important.
I am often reminded of /The Game/ (S05E06) episode from TNG[0]
Some people just like the flavor, personally I drink a cup of decaf every evening. Of course, a LOT are addicted to caffeine. The most normalized addiction in the world ahead of alcohol and nicotine, although those are becoming more stigmatized over time.
It is amazing how inefficient water use seems to be in plants.
Dry biomass growth is ~1kg/m^2/year, wet maybe 4-5x that. But they see ~1m of rainfall, so 1000kg/m^2/year of water. The roots fail to take up some, but the rest seems to be ~99% lost due to transpiration (some of which is necessary for heat stress and/or pump up nutrients).
[+] [-] doodlebugging|1 year ago|reply
It grows wild all over the SE US and can withstand multi-year drought or regular floods though it does best in a situation where it gets regular rainfall. You may have some in your own yard used as a hedge plant. I have several large trees on my place. It spreads underground by suckers and will take over an area if you do nothing to contain it. It is very strong once it forms a thicket. I have driven across a yaupon thicket in a seismic buggy and been in a situation where none of the tires were touching the ground as I drove because I was crossing a thick tangle of yaupon that supported the vehicle.
Caffeine levels are lower than coffee beans (40-60 mg versus >150 mg I think). Yaupon does also have theobromines, vasodilators, that are supposed to help it prevent the caffeine crash.
I have some leaves dried and drink it make a tea occasionally when I want a boost but not a cup of coffee level boost. It tastes great and is easy to prepare at home.
[0]https://yauponbrothers.com/blogs/news/is-yaupon-better-than-...
There are other sources of information about yaupon holly. It is proposed that the British naturalist who discovered Native Americans using it in their own ceremonies and drinking it casually decided to name it ilex vomitoria not because it was dangerous or poisonous to consume but because since it grew wild in the colonies, it could be a serious competitor to English tea so he used the name to make it less attractive.
[+] [-] nkozyra|1 year ago|reply
The problem isn't getting caffeine, though. You can buy a tub of 200mg caffeine pills for $3. People like coffee. Substituting coffee isn't just a matter of caffeine for drinkers.
[+] [-] diob|1 year ago|reply
That said, it is interesting, and I’d definitely give it a try.
Some people do drink coffee just for the caffeine—but those folks aren’t usually worried about beans or brew methods. They’re just as likely to grab an energy drink or whatever’s convenient.
But for a lot of us, coffee’s more than that. There’s a whole culture around it, and I don’t see that going away anytime soon.
Then again, I'm deep into coffee, so I'm probably biased.
[+] [-] sriacha|1 year ago|reply
Also to note Ilex vomitoria is in the same genus as yerba mate, Ilex paraguariensis.
[+] [-] CommieBobDole|1 year ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaupon_tea
[+] [-] fellowniusmonk|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] MarkusWandel|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] djha-skin|1 year ago|reply
Having grown up in a wet climate (Chicago) but now living in a dry one (Utah) I can say that finding a droubt tolerant species which concerns itself with pesticide production may be difficult. The same water which coffee relies on is the same stuff pests rely on to reproduce. My mother was from Utah, and she always lamented at the small size of her flowers growing up in Chicago. They are much larger in Utah because they can get big without insects eating them.
(I say all this as a point of interest, but I don't drink coffee myself.)
[+] [-] tomrod|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] foenix|1 year ago|reply
Counter-anecdote from a Utah local: every time we travel to a "wet" area (any travel but Arizona / Nevada) we always find the climate to be more verdant and flowery. Perhaps ecosystems are more multi-faceted in nature.
Counter-counter-anecdote: Our Roses love the weather here.
[+] [-] mortos|1 year ago|reply
There is some desire for less caffeine as it adds bitterness. Eugenioides, a parent species to arabica the commonly cultivated species, inherently has less caffeine and is said to have a remarkably sweet cup. It's had some attention in barista competitions in the last few years.
[+] [-] wil421|1 year ago|reply
It’s the same reason Alaska can grow freakishly big produce in a short season. There’s not much darkness during the growing season.
[+] [-] chongli|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] rurp|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Straw|1 year ago|reply
Some areas will get drier, others (like the Sahara and Sahale for example) have and will get wetter.
[+] [-] Y_Y|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jddj|1 year ago|reply
Tobacco, no?
[+] [-] dbetteridge|1 year ago|reply
James Hoffman did an interesting episode on this bean a few years ago, very cool the work being done.
[+] [-] unknown|1 year ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] FuriouslyAdrift|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jtbayly|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] jessekv|1 year ago|reply
Maybe, but Taiwan and Australia have some of the best coffee these days.
[+] [-] AnotherGoodName|1 year ago|reply
Turns out that statement is completely false. We drink more coffee than tea which matches my anecdotal experience.
https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1399769/australia-regular...
[+] [-] sampullman|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] m3kw9|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] vmwareuser-020|1 year ago|reply
I’m introducing some plants to a rural community in Panama that had its Robusta crops ruined by the harsh summers we’ve experienced over the past couple of years.
[+] [-] lycopodiopsida|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] ndsipa_pomu|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] zdragnar|1 year ago|reply
When you don't have any adrenal stimulants in your diet at all, even a small amount is noticable.
Caffeine also has a metabolic half life of roughly 5 hours in the body, if I remember correctly. A few berries might not do much, but surely a handful will be enough.
[+] [-] loloquwowndueo|1 year ago|reply
Kinda like ok you can eat a poppy but then there’s a reason morphine exists. (Sorry for the stupid analogy ;)
[+] [-] iteria|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] pzs|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] inetknght|1 year ago|reply
If you're paying attention to your body and you're not addicted to stimulants, then a small kick of caffeine would absolutely be noticeable.
[+] [-] awaymazdacx5|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] saunved_42|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] more_corn|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] sgt|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] briandear|1 year ago|reply
Literally everything is blamed on climate change these days. Too much snow? Climate change. Too little snow? Also climate change.
A few years ago I was climbing Mont Blanc and the rockfall due to a warmer winter was blamed on climate change, then a few years later: near-record snow. It’s taking on religious overtones: rather than things happening because it’s God’s will — now it’s “climate.”
I am not denying that the climate changes, I am only calling out that literally every mishap in the natural world is being blamed on it. There is a lot of money in that business.
[+] [-] rwyinuse|1 year ago|reply
Also, it takes some time to move production elsewhere. And if climate change continues to get worse, you can't really trust any place to have a consistent climate.
[+] [-] jpalawaga|1 year ago|reply
We call it climate change because warmer weather produces higher variance in weather patterns--you're adding entropy into the system. Overall warmer, but more rain (and mud/rockslides), more wind, more lightning, etc etc.
[+] [-] joquarky|1 year ago|reply
But also we should not ignore early warning signs, especially when they give us time to prepare.
It's not fear, it’s just game theory. If there's a decent chance of major disruption, the cost of not acting early could be way worse.
[+] [-] Etheryte|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] Henchman21|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] histriosum|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] joquarky|1 year ago|reply
I see it all the time: people go out to restaurants, talk for a few minutes, then silently drift into their phones. The connection just evaporates. It feels like we've traded presence for stimulation.
And I'm not saying this as a Luddite. I used to be incredibly excited about technology. I still am, in some ways. But it's hard not to feel like we're losing something important.
I am often reminded of /The Game/ (S05E06) episode from TNG[0]
Are we in it?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_...
[+] [-] connicpu|1 year ago|reply
[+] [-] chris_va|1 year ago|reply
Dry biomass growth is ~1kg/m^2/year, wet maybe 4-5x that. But they see ~1m of rainfall, so 1000kg/m^2/year of water. The roots fail to take up some, but the rest seems to be ~99% lost due to transpiration (some of which is necessary for heat stress and/or pump up nutrients).
Maybe after C4 rice we can get C4/CAM coffee?
[+] [-] foundart|1 year ago|reply