This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.
> Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running.
> If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of urgency. Regardless of whether you know the expiration date, all offers expire at some point, so take advantage of that.
Anecdotally, I have seen this work many times to great effect.
Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one.
I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.
As a hiring manager, this might help negotiate pay up if I already wanted to hire you, but if I was on the fence, knowing someone I'm not thrilled with has an offer does basically nothing for me.
Agreed. In my last job search I went months with no offer, then 4 within a week. Precisely because I leveraged the first one to speed the others along.
If you’re good at running your interview process you will have 3-4 at a time. That’s usually where I’m at, I’m interviewing with 12 and get it necked down to 3 or 4 getting to the offer point. I try to stretch out the fast movers and speed up the slow ones but just be honest with recruiters. You’re in the pipeline with other companies and you’re not ready to respond yet.
Edit: I saw other comments. I am both “old” and I have a mechanical engineering degree (not CS) and I do just fine interviewing with startups. I worked really hard at the practice of interviewing, this has more rewards and lower risk than basically any other skills you can learn so invest it.
I was lucky enough to have 3 companies that all gave me offers (a couple years back when the market for tech was at its peak). It played out like this article recommends. After an offer was on the table, the other 2 kept throwing better and better offers at me.
However, interviewing at 3 companies, over the span of 2 weeks, with an existing (remote) full time job was hard work. Likely impossible if I hadn't already checked out at the FT job. It was also mentally exhausting, with how companies like to do multiple rounds.
I agree with you within the scope of top tech jobs. The tech interviews process is fairly uniquely grueling because it's both very high paid (so a costly mistake to hire poorly) while lacking much professional certification.
In many other careers the interview process is, if not shorter, at least more behavioral and less mentally draining because you're already pre-screened by licensure or rigid advancement structure of some sort.
And even if you receive two or more offers at once, many organizations don't bother negotiating. One time I received two offers at once, and neither organization was willing to change anything substantive about their offers.
In this case, one organization had an onerous IP policy and that other did not. I asked for some carve-outs, and the first organization came back with a single line added to the IP policy that did not change anything meaningful. I told them that I could not accept that offer as written and wanted more changes, but they refused further negotiation and told me to take it or leave it. I waited a few days, rejected their offer, and accepted the other offer.
(I think that they were willing to add the single meaningless line to make it appear they were willing to change things without actually changing anything substantive.)
The morale of my story is that you may not be able to negotiate a better offer, but at least you have a choice when you have multiple offers.
Yeah well at least you tried, sometimes that’s just how it plays out. You might be surprised by how many people don’t even realize you CAN negotiate a job offer. I think it’s a little more well known among tech workers maybe?
Assume that X% of companies are interested in you and you pursue Y leads to result in X% * Y offers. A large number of people will receive 0 offers and they'll be long term on the job market until they make a change to either X (job hunting strategy) or Y (pool of roles considered).
A large number of people will receive >1 offers because they're competitive in the marketplace. Only some tiny number of people will receive exactly one offer unless Y is very small.
That many people only receive one offer is more of a sign that they're not strategic in their job hunting approach (which is upstream of them not being strategic in their negotiations) and this is a fixable problem.
This article must've been written in Spring 2022. Tech hiring is now like 2008 or post-dotcom.
The question is whether it will return to what it once was.
The big tech companies are monopolies, no longer afraid that they have to employ "all the engineers" to prevent competition. ZIRP isn't there to give rise to startups, or to give the tech companies unlimited leeway in development.
If interest rates drop or big tech is broken up, we might see a sharp rise in salaries. But now there's also more competition from overseas, both in terms of great talent and competition from large international players.
edit: the article was from 2016, and can confirm. I was making bank then and getting free at-work massages, boba, and towel service.
3 companies in a row I got recruited by folks from other companies - skipped the degree and about to turn 40, so older is relative - the biggest diff I have had is I am obvious and honest that I am always looking and actively build the network, especially the youngins - I have gotten 4 jobs (and its accelerating given the last 3) from folks I helped teach or train in the past who went on to do something interesting.
In a 25 year career, I've never really managed to significantly negotiate compensation upwards, either at the job offer phase or for raises once I'm in. It's always a "take it or leave it" offer and yea, I've chosen to leave it a few times.
Recruiter: "Here's your offer for $X compensation."
You: "I was actually looking for something paying $X+Y."
Recruiter: "Well our offer is $X."
You: "This data shows that comparable jobs with the work I'm taking on are paying $X+Y."
Recruiter: "Our offer is $X. Do you want the job or not?"
You: "Well, I'm not willing to join for less than $X+(Y/2)."
Recruiter: "OK, well, bye. We have 35 other candidates lined up to talk to. Good luck."
Not sure how it's different when you have multiple offers. The company offering a lower comp will just say "Well, their offer is higher. Have fun at Company B. Thanks for interviewing!" Reading stories of these Captains Of Industry just asking for more and getting it, or getting companies into a bidding war over them is... kind of wild. It's like we're living in different universes.
Not an expert, but my impression is that many companies (maybe especially startups) don't say "we offer $X". They will try to ask you how much you expect as early as possible: if that's way too high, they won't even interview you, if it's too low you're screwed because they won't go higher anymore.
I don't think I'm negotiating to get a better compensation than what is reasonable. On the contrary, I'm negotiating to get a fair compensation.
Some companies (bigger ones) will just say "we hire you for this title, so the compensation is $X and we don't negotiate because we want it to be fair for your colleagues". Then I don't think you can negotiate much, but at the same time they're probably not screwing you. It's just what it's worth to them, take it or leave it.
This has not been my experience at all -- even as recently as last year it was
Recruiter: "Here's your offer for $X"
You: "Well I'm also negotiating an offer with Z for $X + 200k
Recruiter: OK well how about $X + 200k and a 50k signing bonus?
Multiple offers are key -- seriously, timing that properly is the biggest thing you can do to optimize your job search. Even if you can't give exact numbers, the mere presence of a competing offer will make a company offer you top of band.
at my company the dollars are what they are - take it or leave it. However you can often get an extra week of paid vacation if you ask. You don't eken have to know it is exactly what we can give - the hiring manager wants you and has been told $x by hr but know vacation is an option and will offer it if you just don't say yes instantly.
Pretty sure this is largely related to the industry and type of position you're applying for, and whether it's a big or small company.
At a big company with known positions (e.g. junior, mid-range, and senior devs), salaries for each of those positions may fall within a narrow range with little to no leeway. At a smaller company, where roles are more amorphous, starting salary may span a huge range depending on your specific qualifications, how their business is going, etc.
Yes, our system is a multiverse of psychological distortions and senseless inequality. Some people straight out of university with no skills will receive large offers from multiple companies and will use that to negotiate themselves a big pay package then they will feel good about themselves and feel like they earned it...
But in reality it's just an illusion. Companies want to hire people who are delusional and believe that they deserve what they got. Big tech doesn't really need these people or their skills, in reality. They're merely cogs in the big machine. Big tech could easily have found someone better for a lower price; they get so many applications. The whole thing is like a psychological operation. They don't want to build up an elite class which understands how broken the system is. They want a delusional elite class who believe the grotesque myth of the meritocracy. People who don't believe in meritocracy are a huge threat; they cannot be allowed anywhere near the elite because the system is so unmeritocratic, it wouldn't take many interactions to snap the elite out of their comfortable trance.
Business leaders start getting imposter syndrome after they interact with people who understand reality. Business leaders sometimes start viewing themselves as mavericks/mafia boss and sometimes start behaving in dodgy ways.
It's like if you do something and you later discover that it was causing harm; you can either feel bad and correct your behaviour or you reinvent your self-image as a 'bad guy' and double down on the harm... Most people choose the latter, unfortunately.
I have had this situation multiple times in my life. It was probably a lot more common for tech in the last 10 years especially in the US.
Edit: I'm seeing a lot of comments on this thread that has not aligned with my experience. I have, in tech, as a software engineer used multiple offers to increase a lower offer by like 15% for a company I preferred and I have also held an offer on the hook so to speak to use it leverage someone else to good effect.
Best way I've found is no negotiate tell recruiters and head hunters what you want to make (saying that's what you make currently) when you respond to their initial message. Either the conversation continues where they offer a bit more or it ends.
Then it’s not for them. You don’t see me complaining about advice for plumbers bc I’m not a plumber. The advice is for the 1%. Anecdotally I know numerous people, including myself, who have been in this situation.
aozgaa|11 months ago
> Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running.
> If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of urgency. Regardless of whether you know the expiration date, all offers expire at some point, so take advantage of that.
Anecdotally, I have seen this work many times to great effect.
Aeolun|11 months ago
I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.
johndhi|11 months ago
xivzgrev|11 months ago
MarkMarine|11 months ago
Edit: I saw other comments. I am both “old” and I have a mechanical engineering degree (not CS) and I do just fine interviewing with startups. I worked really hard at the practice of interviewing, this has more rewards and lower risk than basically any other skills you can learn so invest it.
fdsf111|11 months ago
What did you do?
briHass|11 months ago
I was lucky enough to have 3 companies that all gave me offers (a couple years back when the market for tech was at its peak). It played out like this article recommends. After an offer was on the table, the other 2 kept throwing better and better offers at me.
However, interviewing at 3 companies, over the span of 2 weeks, with an existing (remote) full time job was hard work. Likely impossible if I hadn't already checked out at the FT job. It was also mentally exhausting, with how companies like to do multiple rounds.
lucaspm98|11 months ago
In many other careers the interview process is, if not shorter, at least more behavioral and less mentally draining because you're already pre-screened by licensure or rigid advancement structure of some sort.
atrettel|11 months ago
In this case, one organization had an onerous IP policy and that other did not. I asked for some carve-outs, and the first organization came back with a single line added to the IP policy that did not change anything meaningful. I told them that I could not accept that offer as written and wanted more changes, but they refused further negotiation and told me to take it or leave it. I waited a few days, rejected their offer, and accepted the other offer.
(I think that they were willing to add the single meaningless line to make it appear they were willing to change things without actually changing anything substantive.)
The morale of my story is that you may not be able to negotiate a better offer, but at least you have a choice when you have multiple offers.
soupfordummies|11 months ago
robotnikman|11 months ago
In the current job market, only if your in the top 0.01% will you ever have to worry about this.
I really hope things improve but I'm pessimistic...
shalmanese|11 months ago
Assume that X% of companies are interested in you and you pursue Y leads to result in X% * Y offers. A large number of people will receive 0 offers and they'll be long term on the job market until they make a change to either X (job hunting strategy) or Y (pool of roles considered).
A large number of people will receive >1 offers because they're competitive in the marketplace. Only some tiny number of people will receive exactly one offer unless Y is very small.
That many people only receive one offer is more of a sign that they're not strategic in their job hunting approach (which is upstream of them not being strategic in their negotiations) and this is a fixable problem.
jckahn|11 months ago
echelon|11 months ago
The question is whether it will return to what it once was.
The big tech companies are monopolies, no longer afraid that they have to employ "all the engineers" to prevent competition. ZIRP isn't there to give rise to startups, or to give the tech companies unlimited leeway in development.
If interest rates drop or big tech is broken up, we might see a sharp rise in salaries. But now there's also more competition from overseas, both in terms of great talent and competition from large international players.
edit: the article was from 2016, and can confirm. I was making bank then and getting free at-work massages, boba, and towel service.
garciasn|11 months ago
silisili|11 months ago
mixmastamyk|11 months ago
hobs|11 months ago
ryandrake|11 months ago
Recruiter: "Here's your offer for $X compensation."
You: "I was actually looking for something paying $X+Y."
Recruiter: "Well our offer is $X."
You: "This data shows that comparable jobs with the work I'm taking on are paying $X+Y."
Recruiter: "Our offer is $X. Do you want the job or not?"
You: "Well, I'm not willing to join for less than $X+(Y/2)."
Recruiter: "OK, well, bye. We have 35 other candidates lined up to talk to. Good luck."
Not sure how it's different when you have multiple offers. The company offering a lower comp will just say "Well, their offer is higher. Have fun at Company B. Thanks for interviewing!" Reading stories of these Captains Of Industry just asking for more and getting it, or getting companies into a bidding war over them is... kind of wild. It's like we're living in different universes.
palata|11 months ago
I don't think I'm negotiating to get a better compensation than what is reasonable. On the contrary, I'm negotiating to get a fair compensation.
Some companies (bigger ones) will just say "we hire you for this title, so the compensation is $X and we don't negotiate because we want it to be fair for your colleagues". Then I don't think you can negotiate much, but at the same time they're probably not screwing you. It's just what it's worth to them, take it or leave it.
sbrother|11 months ago
Recruiter: "Here's your offer for $X"
You: "Well I'm also negotiating an offer with Z for $X + 200k
Recruiter: OK well how about $X + 200k and a 50k signing bonus?
Multiple offers are key -- seriously, timing that properly is the biggest thing you can do to optimize your job search. Even if you can't give exact numbers, the mere presence of a competing offer will make a company offer you top of band.
bluGill|11 months ago
kmoser|11 months ago
At a big company with known positions (e.g. junior, mid-range, and senior devs), salaries for each of those positions may fall within a narrow range with little to no leeway. At a smaller company, where roles are more amorphous, starting salary may span a huge range depending on your specific qualifications, how their business is going, etc.
unknown|11 months ago
[deleted]
roland35|11 months ago
jongjong|11 months ago
But in reality it's just an illusion. Companies want to hire people who are delusional and believe that they deserve what they got. Big tech doesn't really need these people or their skills, in reality. They're merely cogs in the big machine. Big tech could easily have found someone better for a lower price; they get so many applications. The whole thing is like a psychological operation. They don't want to build up an elite class which understands how broken the system is. They want a delusional elite class who believe the grotesque myth of the meritocracy. People who don't believe in meritocracy are a huge threat; they cannot be allowed anywhere near the elite because the system is so unmeritocratic, it wouldn't take many interactions to snap the elite out of their comfortable trance.
Business leaders start getting imposter syndrome after they interact with people who understand reality. Business leaders sometimes start viewing themselves as mavericks/mafia boss and sometimes start behaving in dodgy ways.
It's like if you do something and you later discover that it was causing harm; you can either feel bad and correct your behaviour or you reinvent your self-image as a 'bad guy' and double down on the harm... Most people choose the latter, unfortunately.
ianbutler|11 months ago
Edit: I'm seeing a lot of comments on this thread that has not aligned with my experience. I have, in tech, as a software engineer used multiple offers to increase a lower offer by like 15% for a company I preferred and I have also held an offer on the hook so to speak to use it leverage someone else to good effect.
paul7986|11 months ago
TheRealPomax|11 months ago
You're negotiating based on potential.
zulban|11 months ago
hershey890|11 months ago
Then it’s not for them. You don’t see me complaining about advice for plumbers bc I’m not a plumber. The advice is for the 1%. Anecdotally I know numerous people, including myself, who have been in this situation.
parpfish|11 months ago
tekla|11 months ago