[alexambarch]

I’d argue Terraform/HCL is quite popular as a Level 4 configuration language. My biggest issue with it is that once things get sufficiently complex, you wish you were using a Level 5 language.

In fact, it’s hard to see where a Level 4 language perfectly fits. After you’ve surpassed the abilities of JSON or YAML (and you don’t opt for slapping on a templating engine like Helm does), it feels like jumping straight to Level 5 is worth the effort for the tooling and larger community.

[default-kramer]

I'm very surprised we don't see more people using a level 5 language to generate Terraform (as level 3 JSON) for this exact reason. It would seem to be the best of both worlds -- use the powerful language to enforce consistency and correctness while still being able to read and diff the simple output to gain understanding. In this hypothetical workflow, Terraform constructs like variables and modules would not be used; they would be replaced by their counterparts in the level 5 language.

https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/language/syntax/js...

[JanMa]

That actually works quite well. I once built a templating engine for Terraform files based on JQ that reads in higher level Yaml definitions of the resources that should be created and outputs valid Terraform Json config. The main reason back then was that you couldn't dynamically create Terraform provider definitions in Terraform itself.

Later on I migrated the solution to Terramate which made it a lot more maintainable because you write HCL to template Terraform config instead of JQ filters.

[rattyJ2]

This is basically how pulumi and tfsdk work. You write go/ts/python/... that generates a bunch of config files to a temp folder, and then reconciles those.

[harshitaneja]

This is exactly how we do it with our very own rudimentary internal library and scripts. Barely enough and even though I worry at times it will break unexpectedly but so far we are surprised by how stable everything has been.

Although I really wish there was a first party solution or a well established library for this but I suspect that while it is easy to build only enough to support specific usecases but building a generic enough solution for everyone would be quite an undertaking.

[danpalmer]

The problem with HCL is that it's a Level 4 language masquerading as a Level 3 language, rather than a Level 4 language masquerading as a Level 5 (like Starlark, Dhall, even JSONNET). Because of that its syntax is very limited and it needs awkwardly nuanced semantics, and becomes difficult to use well as a result.

HCL is best used when the problem you're solving is nearly one you could use a level 3 language for, whereas in my experience, Starlark is only really worth it when what you need is nearly Python.

[miningape]

The choice between 4 and 5 is more about what you get to avoid. By choosing level 5 you are opening the possibility to make some really complicated configurations and many more footguns. When you stay at level 4 you're forced into using more "standardised" blocks of code that can easily be looked up online and understood.

Level 4 is also far more declarative by nature, you cannot fully compute stuff so a lot is abstracted away declaratively. This also leads to simpler code since you're less encouraged to get into the weeds of instantiation and rather just declare what you'd like.

Overall it's about forcing simplicity by not allowing the scope of possibilities to explode. Certainly there are cases where you can't represent problems cleanly, but I think that tradeoff is worth it because of lowered complexity.

Another benefit of level 4 is that it's easier for your code can stay the same while changing the underlying system you're configuring. Since there's a driver layer between the level 4 configuration and the system which can (ideally) be swapped out.