Many prominent figures in Latin America and Spain turned away from socialist and communist positions after experiencing their effects: Guillermo Cabrera Infante, Octavio Paz (also Nobel Prize), Fernando Savater, Jorge Edwards, Jorge Luis Borges, Teodoro Petkoff...
Jorge Luis Borges neither started from a socialist position nor ever experienced the effects of socialism, so I don't know what he's doing on this list.
Savater has not experienced socialism, Spain has never been socialist, Savater has been always someone in great need of attention and joins anyone who gives him that. And the Spain's fascism has give him that. I've seen it since He was teaching in University In San Sebastian and was easier to find him in certain bars and in the horse races than at his work.
“In 2018, he celebrated Lula’s imprisonment in Brazil on dubious corruption charges, and the following year exulted in the right-wing coup that deposed Evo Morales in Bolivia. Since then he has voiced his support for far-right candidates such as José Antonio Kast in Chile and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil…”
“Dubious” charges against Lula? — He was convicted of accepting a seaside apartment as a bribe for helping the OAS construction company get lucrative deals with state oil firm Petrobras.
Did Lula not do that? The claim is that Lula was targeted to keep him out of the election. Seems exactly the motivation for the various charges against Trump. Are charges dubious only when the right does that against the left? Marine Le Pen is another recent example of “dubious” charges being ok as long as it’s only going left against right.
Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Does anyone actually do any neutral reporting or analysis? It seems that anyone to the right of JFK is “far right” while anyone to the left of Marx is “left leaning.”
More importantly, does anyone care any more? Seems like tribalism has gotten much worse over the past few years. The truth is, in the example of Lula is that is is/was very corrupt, but that he’s a leftist seems to excuse that.
Bolsonaro termed "far right" seems to be on the mark though. The guy praises military dictatorship, with many military figures in his government. He targeted the press and judiciary as enemies of the nation, and so on.
Lula hasn't nationalized industries, hasn't seized wealth, or even tried to, so "far left" doesn't seem to be as fitting. Where are the burnt churches?
Now, about corruption, I'm pretty sure neither shine, but that's Brazil for you. Wasn't the Bolsonaro family found to have bought around 50 properties in cash? Smells about as corrupt as the other side, sadly.
Lula's convictions were all overturned by the Supreme Court, so no, we shouldn't believe that he did the things he is accused of. Note that Bolsanaro was already in power when this happened, so there is little reason to suspect him of wielding power over the courts or anything like that.
And just because you're opposing a far right extremist like Bolsanaro doesn't make you a far left politician. For example, Le Pen is a far right extremist politician, but Macron is definitely not far left (though Jean-Luc Melanchon, the third place in the previous election, could rightly be called a far left candidate).
Lula is not far left by any reasonable definition of both "far" and "left"
> Did Lula not do that?
I'm not an expert and not that knowledgeable about the case but it seems to me the accusation -famously- stated things like "We have no hard proof" (...) "(but) we are convinced he did it"
Again - if the accusation states 'We have no proof', under assumption of innocence, yeah; he "didn't do it"
> Dubious” charges against Lula? — He was convicted of accepting a seaside apartment as a bribe for helping the OAS construction company get lucrative deals with state oil firm Petrobras.
Yes, since nobody yet proved that the apartment was Lula's apartment. And tt was discovered several problems with Lula's charges, which was judged by a person that later was rewarded by Bolsonaro with a job as minister.
> Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Lula is not far left, but center left. He is a social democrat at best, not a communist.
> "Dubious” charges against Lula? — He was convicted of accepting a seaside apartment as a bribe for helping the OAS construction company get lucrative deals with state oil firm Petrobras
is it also called a bribe when someone pay for it? I think it is called lawfare
> Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Is lula exalting Stalin and trying to install a proletariat dictatorship?
>Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Bolsonaro was such an unbelievably terrible president that The Economist, that infamous right-wing rag (full disclosure: I am a long-time subscriber), endorsed Lula against him in 2018. If you're going to complain "does anyone care any more?" about a loss of common sense in politics, you probably shouldn't pair that complaint with a defense of Jair Bolsonaro, of all people.
You lost it at the far left/right part. Lula is far left only for the people who believe in the fight the communism plot. For the majority, he is much more aligned with the center, so called “centrão”, so much that neither the leftists are pleased with him anymore.
> Seems exactly the motivation for the various charges against Trump.
I think that you can conspiracize both, or regard both as normal judicial process, but, if you say that it's just fair play against Lula and conspiracy against Trump, then I think that you are just aiming the hypocrisy in the other direction.
The media's use of the the term "far right" for democratically elected politicians is actually a really useful tell. They are unintentionally signaling how biased they are.
Either: "This politician, who received millions of votes is very far right of me (I am very far to the left)."
Or: "I am the center of the left-right spectrum, and this politician who received millions of votes is quite a ways to the right of me (the center), so they are obviously far right."
andrepd|10 months ago
iamjs|10 months ago
tirant|10 months ago
pitpatagain|10 months ago
owebmaster|10 months ago
ghostDancer|10 months ago
briandear|10 months ago
“In 2018, he celebrated Lula’s imprisonment in Brazil on dubious corruption charges, and the following year exulted in the right-wing coup that deposed Evo Morales in Bolivia. Since then he has voiced his support for far-right candidates such as José Antonio Kast in Chile and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil…”
“Dubious” charges against Lula? — He was convicted of accepting a seaside apartment as a bribe for helping the OAS construction company get lucrative deals with state oil firm Petrobras.
Did Lula not do that? The claim is that Lula was targeted to keep him out of the election. Seems exactly the motivation for the various charges against Trump. Are charges dubious only when the right does that against the left? Marine Le Pen is another recent example of “dubious” charges being ok as long as it’s only going left against right.
Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Does anyone actually do any neutral reporting or analysis? It seems that anyone to the right of JFK is “far right” while anyone to the left of Marx is “left leaning.”
More importantly, does anyone care any more? Seems like tribalism has gotten much worse over the past few years. The truth is, in the example of Lula is that is is/was very corrupt, but that he’s a leftist seems to excuse that.
ggus|10 months ago
Lula hasn't nationalized industries, hasn't seized wealth, or even tried to, so "far left" doesn't seem to be as fitting. Where are the burnt churches?
Now, about corruption, I'm pretty sure neither shine, but that's Brazil for you. Wasn't the Bolsonaro family found to have bought around 50 properties in cash? Smells about as corrupt as the other side, sadly.
simiones|10 months ago
And just because you're opposing a far right extremist like Bolsanaro doesn't make you a far left politician. For example, Le Pen is a far right extremist politician, but Macron is definitely not far left (though Jean-Luc Melanchon, the third place in the previous election, could rightly be called a far left candidate).
gota|10 months ago
> Did Lula not do that?
I'm not an expert and not that knowledgeable about the case but it seems to me the accusation -famously- stated things like "We have no hard proof" (...) "(but) we are convinced he did it"
Again - if the accusation states 'We have no proof', under assumption of innocence, yeah; he "didn't do it"
SettembreNero|10 months ago
pasquinelli|10 months ago
no, of course not, what a silly question. you think people are falling over themselves to tell you how things are for your sake?
thiagoharry|10 months ago
Yes, since nobody yet proved that the apartment was Lula's apartment. And tt was discovered several problems with Lula's charges, which was judged by a person that later was rewarded by Bolsonaro with a job as minister.
> Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Lula is not far left, but center left. He is a social democrat at best, not a communist.
owebmaster|10 months ago
is it also called a bribe when someone pay for it? I think it is called lawfare
> Also Bolsonaro was termed “far right,” but Lula not called “far left?”
Is lula exalting Stalin and trying to install a proletariat dictatorship?
scythe|10 months ago
Bolsonaro was such an unbelievably terrible president that The Economist, that infamous right-wing rag (full disclosure: I am a long-time subscriber), endorsed Lula against him in 2018. If you're going to complain "does anyone care any more?" about a loss of common sense in politics, you probably shouldn't pair that complaint with a defense of Jair Bolsonaro, of all people.
caioariede|10 months ago
noobr|10 months ago
JadeNB|10 months ago
I think that you can conspiracize both, or regard both as normal judicial process, but, if you say that it's just fair play against Lula and conspiracy against Trump, then I think that you are just aiming the hypocrisy in the other direction.
next_xibalba|10 months ago
Either: "This politician, who received millions of votes is very far right of me (I am very far to the left)."
Or: "I am the center of the left-right spectrum, and this politician who received millions of votes is quite a ways to the right of me (the center), so they are obviously far right."