> The first version of CONL used # as a comment token, but I quickly ran into issues. URLs contain #, so my next version...
Every other language has figured this one out as well. Wrap strings in quotation marks.
> That led to a data-model where each value is one of scalar|list|map (Compared to JSON’s null|bool|number|string|object|array, this felt good).
I'm not sure what a "scalar" is in CONL (is it always a string?) but a config file format having fewer types than JSON does not feel good to me. Even JSON's hand-wavy "number" type is problematic (whether "1" is an integer or float or some some other type is implementation-defined). TOML got it right to distinguish integers from floats. TOML got this right.
Those who don't learn their history are doomed to find new and innovative ways to repeat history.
If you're older than 40, you remember that there did exist an aeon, long, long ago, when people did not use data object serialization formats as config files. When config files were written not to be easy to parse, but to make it easier for human beings to configure software. When nobody believed there was one single good way to do everything. When software was written not to aid computers, but to aid humans.
> When config files were written not to be easy to parse, but to make it easier for human beings to configure software
Config files have always been a variant of key-value or section-key-value, except that we used to have ad hoc (and probably buggy, inconsistent, incomplete or all three) rules for quoting; array items separated by a mix of spaces, commas or something else; comments (semicolon, percent, sharp) different for each program. Case sensitivity was also a crap shoot, sometimes different between keys and values.
These days TOML (which more or less just works) just works. I have mixed feelings about YAML but certainly I would not swap it with endless variants of sendmail's m4 madness.
I'm sorry, nothing beats KDL in terms of readability and friendliness. I've been using it in personal projects for a while, and it is just so pleasant. I wish it saw way more widespread usage.
Similar to HCL which is way safer and clearer IMHO than all indent based craziness. Its lovely to see default values loaded thanks to some extra spaces. Brackets for the win!
"An INI critique of TOML" this is inspired by was discussed in 2023: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37595766.
It received a lot of criticism, particularly for invoking Postel's law.
We used hocon at a place that I once worked at and I more or less liked it. It did get a lot of abuse though. I think apple released a configuration language that seemed pretty good for the same things that we used hocon. I think it was pkl or something?
Author here. Seemed like the least bad of the options.
Being able to comment out sections of a config file easily is a prime use-case; and that really implies using newlines as delimiters, and well, you fall into this trap..
I've also been playing around with a configuration format, for similar reasons, although my approach is to make it easy(enough) to read/parse for both humans and machines.
Any feedback is welcomed, but keep in mind is just a toy project which has only one user in mind(me), no plans to conquer the world or solve the config format problems for all :)
Really like the philosophy here. Keeping config formats minimal and text-first (rather than trying to be 'clever' with types or logic) feels underrated these days. CONL looks like it hits a nice sweet spot between human-editable and machine-parseable without drifting into 'just use a programming language' territory.
OP has a detailed rationale for going with semicolons. Feel free to counter those points, but you can't just dismiss the thing with a "doesn't look right" without any argument.
Nice! I share a similar set of thoughts and ideals around configuration languages and I'm working on one as well. Mine has a very similar syntax, so you might be interested! You can find it if you dig through my comments.
The only "sigh" here is the boring and predictive act of someone linking that xkcd as the most laziest and unimaginative content-free put-down that you can do.
Lots of people post ideas to Hacker News. Lots of good ideas, lots of bad ideas, and lots in-between. It's very much against the hacker spirit to be such a dismissive lazy jerk about it.
nickm12|10 months ago
Every other language has figured this one out: just support trailing commas. JSON5 supports comments and trailing commas.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20240209-00/?p=10... https://json5.org/
> The first version of CONL used # as a comment token, but I quickly ran into issues. URLs contain #, so my next version...
Every other language has figured this one out as well. Wrap strings in quotation marks.
> That led to a data-model where each value is one of scalar|list|map (Compared to JSON’s null|bool|number|string|object|array, this felt good).
I'm not sure what a "scalar" is in CONL (is it always a string?) but a config file format having fewer types than JSON does not feel good to me. Even JSON's hand-wavy "number" type is problematic (whether "1" is an integer or float or some some other type is implementation-defined). TOML got it right to distinguish integers from floats. TOML got this right.
jcelerier|10 months ago
No one wants that in a config file
0xbadcafebee|10 months ago
If you're older than 40, you remember that there did exist an aeon, long, long ago, when people did not use data object serialization formats as config files. When config files were written not to be easy to parse, but to make it easier for human beings to configure software. When nobody believed there was one single good way to do everything. When software was written not to aid computers, but to aid humans.
bonzini|10 months ago
Config files have always been a variant of key-value or section-key-value, except that we used to have ad hoc (and probably buggy, inconsistent, incomplete or all three) rules for quoting; array items separated by a mix of spaces, commas or something else; comments (semicolon, percent, sharp) different for each program. Case sensitivity was also a crap shoot, sometimes different between keys and values.
These days TOML (which more or less just works) just works. I have mixed feelings about YAML but certainly I would not swap it with endless variants of sendmail's m4 madness.
unknown|10 months ago
[deleted]
wodenokoto|10 months ago
simonask|10 months ago
https://kdl.dev/
misiek08|10 months ago
https://github.com/hashicorp/hcl
shortrounddev2|10 months ago
immibis|10 months ago
networked|10 months ago
nickm12|10 months ago
martypitt|10 months ago
JSON superset, optional quotes for keys, sensible string handling, comments, automatic env variable handling, variable references.
It's not perfect (all sufficiently powerful configuration language has quirks), but I love it.
asimpletune|10 months ago
kiitos|10 months ago
Oops.
cirwin|10 months ago
Being able to comment out sections of a config file easily is a prime use-case; and that really implies using newlines as delimiters, and well, you fall into this trap..
rsyring|10 months ago
1: https://github.com/crdoconnor/strictyaml
aburdulescu|10 months ago
I've also been playing around with a configuration format, for similar reasons, although my approach is to make it easy(enough) to read/parse for both humans and machines.
HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42516608
Any feedback is welcomed, but keep in mind is just a toy project which has only one user in mind(me), no plans to conquer the world or solve the config format problems for all :)
qznc|10 months ago
Rucadi|10 months ago
EasyMarion|10 months ago
stared|10 months ago
- don’t mind the peculiarities of formats used for config
- create a format where semicolons denote comments (just… doesn’t look right)
fph|10 months ago
mtlmtlmtlmtl|10 months ago
Hyperlisk|10 months ago
throwaway150|10 months ago
ChrisArchitect|10 months ago
dcreater|10 months ago
bmandale|10 months ago
comments and
commas are allowed at the end
thoughts?
dwheeler|10 months ago
suprjami|10 months ago
jsomedon|10 months ago
anon7000|10 months ago
arp242|10 months ago
Lots of people post ideas to Hacker News. Lots of good ideas, lots of bad ideas, and lots in-between. It's very much against the hacker spirit to be such a dismissive lazy jerk about it.