[mech9879876]

My main intention in my argument was to convince you that moral hazard exists in current social welfare programs. Judging by your statements, you were already aware of this, but rely on discussion points that deny it exists. Starting off an argument with such a clearly untrue line of discussion sets up pretty poor grounds for an honest talk.

That's all I intend for this. There's room for agreement on some other points, but I doubt it would be a productive conversation when you deny the existence of the downside tradeoffs of your preferred policies.

[hgomersall]

It existing is a necessary and desirable part of any rational system. If it didn't exist that system would either be too complicated as to not help those that need it and/or cost more to implement than is saved by eliminating the fraud. The correct amount of fraud is non zero: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...

[camgunz]

Maybe let's go back to this thing you wrote:

> It seems apparent to me that your attitude toward individual level accountability is one that denies agency of the individual and ascribes their moral failures as a result of societal-level problems. After all, there is no moral hazard when individuals have no moral agency to begin with.

Yeah! I do think people are 99% defined by the systems and scenarios they exist in, whether that's a government, a school system, a culture/society, a family, etc. You can see this all over, but my favorite example is when people from deeply misogynistic cultures move to Western countries, within a few years their views moderate. It's hard to find a more deeply held moral belief than the fundamental roles and identities of men and women, but it changes and quite easily.

Or with the Hale County example, I'm not at all surprised that as the economy failed that community they noped out of it. Reading through the NPR stuff, you'll get a good feeling for how they rationalize it (I don't think Hale County is especially beset by freeloaders) and their dissatisfaction with it. A world where people are strictly adhering to codes of morality isn't one I've ever experienced.

I'm not saying people never do moral or ethical things, and I don't think you can fully understand the world if you don't include morality/ethics in your thinking. But in the aggregate, this isn't how things work.

[mech9879876]

I disagree with regard to Hale County. Freeloading behavior became tolerated. The tacit endorsement of it became a cultural norm and it further discouraged productive economic behavior. They have the good fortune of living within a country large enough that one lagging region can be supported by the economic productivity of the country- something that comes at the expense of the other taxpayers. If they generally have the capability to support themselves but are instead choosing not to because it's easier, then they are freeloading.

If Hale County existed as an independent economy with no transfer payments to it, I wouldn't judge its population negatively. Or, if they were using the system of unemployment benefits as intended (as opposed to the system of disability benefits), then I wouldn't judge its population negatively. These systems were each established for their own purposes and twisting the intent of disability benefits to achieve personal gains is shameworthy. The fact that the people interviewed have to rationalize it is evidence that they are aware that what they are doing is shameworthy.

I think your arguments still are relying on misdirection around certain words- especially words that come with negative judgements against people that are suffering. i.e. the poor cannot act upon moral hazard, or the poor cannot be freeloaders. Well-intended moral judgements can still cast shame upon the poor- if you are poor, yet capable of working to improve your lot, and choose in the long term to rely on the involuntarily-given (taxed) aid of others, that is shameworthy. The preferable outcome would be to adapt, and to make your own way in life without taking from community resources. The whole community does better this way.