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Google to back three new nuclear projects

291 points| aburan28 | 9 months ago |esgtoday.com

356 comments

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Some comments were deferred for faster rendering.

perihelions|9 months ago

Here's a better article:

https://www.theregister.com/2025/05/07/google_signs_another_...

> "Elementl didn't respond to questions by press time. Its public materials offer little clarity on its actual operations—aside from broad claims about providing "turn-key project development, financing and ownership solutions customized to meet our customers' needs while mitigating risks and maximizing benefit."

> "The nuclear developer, founded in 2022, presents itself as a facilitator of advanced reactor projects. But it has not built any reactors to date and describes itself as a "technology-agnostic nuclear power developer and independent power producer," signaling it does not back any specific reactor design."

> "This approach aligns with the background of Elementl's CEO and chairman, Christopher Colbert, who previously served as CFO, COO, and chief strategy officer at NuScale Power."

ertgbnm|9 months ago

> "meet our customers' needs while mitigating risks and maximizing benefit."

Holy corporate jargon batman! I love seeing example of phrases like this out in the wild. Stating this implies that minimizing risks and maximizing benefit is not a need of most customers? IMO, it's better not to say stuff like that at all. It's basically a meaningless phrase, it adds no information to the sentence. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's generally a sign that they are doing the opposite of whatever the phrase means.

Animats|9 months ago

Oh, it's the NuScale guy again.

NuScale got far enough to get approval to build a test reactor at the Idaho Reactor Testing Station, which is in Outer Nowhere for good reasons. But they never got enough funding to build it.

The trouble with most of these small modular reactor schemes is that their big pitch is mostly "we don't need a big, strong, containment vessel because ... reasons."

There's no inherent problem in building a small nuclear reactor. Here's one from 1957, near Oakland, CA.[1] It's safety if something goes badly wrong that's a problem.

History:

- Chernobyl - meltdown and fire, no containment vessel, major disaster.

- Fukushima - meltdown, too-small containment vessel, large disaster.

- Three Mile Island - meltdown, big strong containment vessel, plant lost but no disaster.

Alternative reactor history:

- Fort St. Vrain - high temperature gas-cooled, subject to helium plumbing leaks in radioactive zone, shut down and plant converted to natural gas.

- AVR reactor, Germany - pebble bed reactor, had pebble jam, had to be shut down, extremely difficult to decommission.

- Sodium reactors - prone to fires.[3]

- Molten salt reactors [4] - require an attached chemical plant that reprocesses radioactive molten salt.

Most of the problems of nuclear reactors in practice involve plumbing. Everything in the radioactive zone has to last half a century or so without maintenance. That's possible with distilled water as the working fluid, but everything else tried has not worked well.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1O8xAB_FDI

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_reactor

[3] https://www.nuclearsafety.gc.ca/eng/resources/research/techn...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-salt_reactor

epistasis|9 months ago

I'm not sure if nuclear has always been a field where charlatans proliferate, but it's certainly true of the past few decades. The Summer plant in South Carolina was completely fraudulent, sending the power executives to jail for their fraud. Billions spent and nothing to show except a hole in the ground. Vogtle was slightly better in that they powered through to construction completion so that nobody cared about the deception and grift that resulted in a cost 3x that of estimates.

The startups have been bad too, with some disingenuously starting regulatory processes and then not even responding to questions or attempting to follow through.

South Koreas is the most developed nation that has had success building, and even they send people to jail for construction fraud.

There are undoubtedly many honest and earnest people trying to build new nuclear. But it's hard to tell who until after billions have been sunk and misallocated.

os2warpman|9 months ago

>Elementl

Missing vowels + no plan + a leadership team stacked with MBAs, investment bankers, and FAMILY MEMBERS?!?= bullshit private equity "play".

Let me predict what is going to happen: a team of connected "playaz" are going to get real companies with cash and the government to give them money to shake up the nuclear market.

Then the leadership team is going to hire a token staff of scientists, engineers, and public policy folks.

They are going to have a groundbreaking ceremony for a facility (not a reactor, like an R&D facility or "rapid innovation incubator" or something) that is highly publicized and subsidized by state and local business development grants and credits but will either never be finished or never fully staffed.

Nothing will happen for four years until they either fade out of existence or declare defeat due to "regulatory and market conditions" with nothing to show but some powerpoints and press releases.

The hundreds of millions of dollars that flowed into the organization is never spoken of or seen again.

Then a couple of years later they'll register another .io domain with missing vowels and start all over again.

agos|9 months ago

this sounds like one of those Google PR moments where they desperately try to paint themselves as the good guys. Remember when they announced contact lenses to help people with diabetes?

Maybe this is related to the talk about splitting Google that's going around these days?

floxy|9 months ago

I suppose like anything there are multiple reasons, but what are the top 3 why California electric rates are so high (compared to the rest of the U.S.)?

https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/

Why doesn't the state encourage more capacity to bring costs down? (to encourage electrification/EVs, etc.) Is it because they are phasing out natural gas? Is it to encourage roof top solar? Or trying to reduce consumption by having high prices? Or environmental permitting? "Lobbying" by entrenched incumbents? Or maybe the high price is due to taxes and not the price of generation?

ruined|9 months ago

california electric rates are so high because the state board keeps raising them

https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/statement/2025/02/pge-reco...

PR staff will talk about the insurance liability and mandated action to improve infrastructure (wildfires keep starting on power lines and then burning down cities) but it's hard to look away from the record profits

ViewTrick1002|9 months ago

The average wholesale prices in California is nothing special.

The costs come from the wildfires and a derelict grid requiring large infrastructure upgrades.

guywithahat|9 months ago

It's largely forest fires and regulation. Electricity prices are regulated by the state, and at the same time they mandate certain green energy goals. To hit these goals, electric companies have to ignore infrastructure to build renewable energy sources. If the infrastructure gets too old, it risks starting a fire, which could cost the company billions. When the state sees them lose money after a fire, the state lets them raise prices.

It is a very silly cycle which could be ended by either removing green energy goals so they could improve infrastructure, and to not hold electric companies directly liable for all damage from a fire.

neural_thing|9 months ago

It's because the California government doesn't believe in markets, prices as incentives or anything like that. California govt believes in state mandates

outside1234|9 months ago

If anything the renewable sources are keeping rates in check.

California is raising rates to build out infrastructure for electrification and mitigation of the dangers that now exist due to climate change.

anon6362|9 months ago

While I was going to community college in the late 90's, I had an IT consulting biz where I serviced mechanical engineers and folks in the US nuclear industry who were ex-General Electric (GE NE). I learned nuclear was heavily-regulated (rightfully so) and costly but the main barriers to new sites were insurance, the huge capital investment, and the very long project cycles. As such, these are just too risky for most business people and investors. Nowadays, even with SMRs, the ROI still doesn't make sense given the massive, massive advances in renewables and regional grid storage. Very few Americans want an unproven, fly-by-night startup SMR in their neighborhood or in their county. I'd be okay with just a few mega reactors in fixed sites in very remote areas that would be heavily defended with perimeter security and anti-aircraft/-drone emplacements. I'm not okay with SMRs on flatbed trailers with minimal security in urban areas.

bpodgursky|9 months ago

Every compute company knows that power shortage is a looming crisis. They don't have nuclear expertise in-house and are desperately looking for somewhere to put their money that seems to have experience and capability

This is a good thing, but will be fruitless unless the US NRC modernizes in parallel with the industry to actually approve a new reactor in less than geologic time.

philipkglass|9 months ago

The NRC isn't the bottleneck. For the recently completed Vogtle Unit 3 reactor, construction work and permitting work ran in tandem. Early construction work started in 2009 and all NRC approvals were completed by 2012. Neither NRC regulations nor lawsuits ever halted construction. Vogtle 3 was originally supposed to be ready in 2016. It suffered enormous cost overruns and delays due to the companies actually building it before finally entering service in 2023.

https://www.powermag.com/vogtle-3-reaches-initial-criticalit...

The identical AP1000 reactors under construction at VC Summer in South Carolina also suffered enormous cost overruns and delays, again not caused by the NRC or lawsuits. The construction problems were so severe at the VC Summer project that the project halted after spending over $9 billion, it led to the largest business failure in the history of South Carolina, and a couple of company executives went to prison for securities fraud:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal

delusional|9 months ago

Ignoring AI (don't @ me) what are we doing with all that compute? Google (the search engine) hasn't meaningfully changed. Shopping is still largely the same as when Amazon first started out. Websites are pretty much the same. I don't understand what we're doing with all those operations.

I guess VOD is new, but does that really demand that amount of compute?

Hilift|9 months ago

Ludicrous. You can't build a reactor in the US for less than $10 billion. Combine that with natural gas at prices five times less than Europe and that means that no-one will loan money for a project. If they do, it is usually subsidized by naive taxpayers. Meanwhile a windmill can transported on the Interstate in Kansas unattended and installed in two days.

muth02446|9 months ago

I view nuclear as a prudent diversification of energy sources: What happens if some supervolcano erupts, and because of the ashes significantly less sunlight reaches the surface of the earth. Presumably, there will also be less wind then.

seatac76|9 months ago

If that is your concern, then the thing to worry about is dramatic loss in food production before energy becomes an issue.

biophysboy|9 months ago

I think we would have a harder time finding food and clean water in this scenario

delusional|9 months ago

Even on a dead earth the AI must consume and indescribable amount of power.

YokoZar|9 months ago

If your worry is volcanoes, geothermal power can remove energy from them before they explode. On a sufficient scale they could even prevent them.

croes|9 months ago

Are we playing What-if?

What if hackers/terrorist attack the power plants?

What if the operating companies values profit over security?

What if an earthquake or Tsunami hits nuclear power plant?

sschueller|9 months ago

Even without I think wind will become too expensive eventually to make it worth while. Especially when solar gets more efficient and cheaper.

Wind has down sides like moving parts and requiring giant concrete poors. Birds strikes, noise as well as ground vibration are also issues.

frollogaston|9 months ago

It's not even a what-if, it's just cheaper than solar for what you get. Especially compared to residential solar, which is also quite dangerous.

barbazoo|9 months ago

Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43927371

> Ontario set to begin construction of Canada's first mini nuclear power plant

_aavaa_|9 months ago

4x300 MWe for 20.9B CAD for this vs Vogtle 3 and 4 are 2x 1117 MWe for 36.8B USD.

So the starting stated price is only 20% cheaper than that train wreck. Will love to see how high this number gets given it's a first of its kind.

bryanlarsen|9 months ago

$20B for 300MW, and that's before the inevitable massive cost overruns. Continuing the Ontario provincial government's history of lighting taxpayer money on fire for electricity.

dfilppi|9 months ago

Nuclear (hopefully fusion at some point) is the only plausible way to meet energy needs in the future (that we currently know of). Fear of nuclear waste isn't irrational, but highly overblown because catastrophic events are more emotionally compelling than the slow degradation of either living standards and/or environment caused by competing technology.

leoapagano|9 months ago

30 years ago, I would have said the same thing. But right now solar is seeing technological advances at an exponential rate, such that by the time we build a nuclear power plant, get it approved, and get it running, solar will be both cheaper and safer while using less space.

pfdietz|9 months ago

> Nuclear (hopefully fusion at some point) is the only plausible way to meet energy needs in the future (that we currently know of).

This is simply false. At this point, its falsity has been sufficiently well demonstrated and communicated that you should have known it was false. If you are not deliberately lying, it's only because you steered yourself away from learning the truth.

doublerabbit|9 months ago

What happens in such case were a reactor was to blow. What then? Or are you saying we just deal with it when it occurs?

I am not fully detesting nuclear, but I do disagree it a cure to the environment crisis as Solar is plenty and free; as are Wind and Water too.

The risks of what if; and that now we live in such a volatile world. How are you going to convince me it's safe?

How do I know a drone won't strike it in the next war? Some sponsored hack?

Stuxnet was an organised hack that was created to aid destruction to nuclear hardware.

Chernobyl is still unsafe and that's many years ago and was recently damaged again by a drone.

abetaha|9 months ago

Ignoring what Elementl is developing as their material is confusing, what would be some of the practical energy sources for power hungry AI workloads other than nuclear?

bee_rider|9 months ago

Personally I’m skeptical of nuclear power given how much easier it is to incrementally add renewable capacity (sure, intermittence is a problem, but I think we can deal with it by being cleverer).

But anyway, if anybody (other than the government, which gave up long ago) can pay the upfront costs of nuclear, it is the big tech companies like Google.

> […] Google has set 2030 goals to reach net zero emissions across its operations and value chain, […]

Man, I remember when 2030 seemed like the future. But now it seems downright aggressive. Good luck Google.

nandomrumber|9 months ago

You’re skeptical of nuclear, a proven technology with excellent safety record, the only power generation that has a completely closed fuel life cycle, and believe in a technology we don’t have.

If we (the West) had built out nuclear to satisfy our electricity needs, implementing new nuclear power tech as it improved, we could have electricity subscriptions like we have mobile / home internet planes.

You’d just pay for amps, say 50 amp, 150 amp, 300 amp, all you can consume.

But instead we have expensive electricity (at least here in Australia), where your mind is constantly loaded wit being aware of your energy consumption.

dmm|9 months ago

> intermittence is a problem, but I think we can deal with it by being cleverer

Solar power is great but intermittence is the main issue with it. If you look at 30 year historical weather data, many highly populated regions have two week periods with almost complete cloud cover. Storage and intercontinental power transmission are usually listed as the solutions to this, but the costs of these solutions are rarely included.

rcpt|9 months ago

Renewables are only easy if you ignore regulations. For whatever stupid reason local busybodies lose their shit about windmills regularly and they are frustratingly hard to ignore.

preisschild|9 months ago

> given how much easier it is to incrementally add renewable capacity

The problem is, the weather dependency makes it harder the more you add, because you will have too much when the weather is optimal and next to nothing when it isn't.

barbazoo|9 months ago

We’re not adding solar fast enough and are still struggling with storage. This would be a great way to bridge the gap. Not if the data centers consume all this new energy of course which seems to be what’s happening. Maybe after everyone has turned their own portrait into a studio ghibli picture we can go back and use that new, clean energy to solve the climate crisis.

1980phipsi|9 months ago

Google can’t have blackouts. So helps to have some nuclear in the energy mix.

ttfkam|9 months ago

"…by being cleverer."

Like harnessing the atom for enormous amounts of 24/7 power per unit volume of fuel and not emitting CO2 while we do it? Yes! Let's do that! And work on making reprocessing more affordable, so we don't even have to mine any more fuel (at least for the next 150 years).

eqvinox|9 months ago

I don't get it. Training giant LLMs can easily be task managed to line up with solar and wind availability. Shut off half the DC at night, go full power when it's sunny and windy. If they integrate the powerplant, they can easily manage this.

Is avoiding HW underutilization really worth going nuclear? The most expensive energy source of all?

looofooo0|9 months ago

Well then you only get 50% of your compute, hence your compute is twice as expensive (ignoring power costs.)

melling|9 months ago

Do the “no nuclear, renewables are the future” people have any comments?

We burned a few decades saying solar and wind are the solution. This set us back greatly in the struggle to reduce greenhouse emissions.

sebastialonso|9 months ago

Never understood the "I'm solar" or "I'm nuclear" crowd. The issue is an engineering problem, not a baseball match.

As an system-oriented person, give me a healthy combination of available, battle tested, new and promising solutions, fine-tuning weaknesses with strengths.

Go to the stadium to solve your local team/visiting team issues. You are all falling to Big Fossil antics.

matthewdgreen|9 months ago

Solar and wind are being deployed in enormous quantities. The technology is mature and marching up the exponential portion of the adoption S-curve. Nuclear isn’t. This isn’t even a value judgement: it’s just a statement on the incredible advantages of a technology that can be produced in factories, vs one that currently can’t.

ViewTrick1002|9 months ago

This seems to be revisionist history trying to position nuclear power as some underdog?!?!?

We threw absolutely massive handouts at the nuclear industry 20 years ago.

Only look to Vogtle, Virgin C. Summer, Olkiluoto 3, Flamanville 3 and all other projects. Moorside, Oldbury, Wylfa and countless in the US.

Had new built nuclear power delivered on budget and on time nuclear power would definitely have been part of the solution.

Instead Vogtle provides electricity costing 19 cents/kWh. Virgil C. Summer is a $10B hole in the ground and Flamanville 3, which is not finished yet, is 7x over budget and 13 years late on a 5 year construction schedule.

The true underdog from that time, renewables (and storage) deliver energy cheaper than even fossil fuels.

pjc50|9 months ago

I'll consider apologizing when one of the Google plants comes on line, whenever that is.

mmooss|9 months ago

> This set us back greatly in the struggle to reduce greenhouse emissions.

What set us back was and is resistance to action on climate change, led by fossil fuel corporations and US conservatives, which has continued for decades. It's a fundamental policy of the Republican Party. Trump is already taking drastic action in that regard; it was one of his higher priorities. To try to blame someone else is absurd, and probably a talking point from their playbook.

ziml77|9 months ago

Many of us who care about the environment have hated the widely-held anti-nuclear stances. It's a very clean source of energy. Renewables ended up being the focus because they had to be. There was no chance of pushing nuclear forward when the general sentiment was that we needed to regress on nuclear.

bryanlarsen|9 months ago

20 years ago nuclear was the fastest, cheapest and best method for carbon free electricity, so the fossil industry pushed solar & wind as a distraction.

Today solar & wind are the fastest, cheapest and best method for carbon free electricity, so the fossil industry pushes nuclear as a distraction.

dhruv3006|9 months ago

Woooah! Times are changing.

EasyMarion|9 months ago

The AI arms race really is literally heating up...I nuit.

hansvm|9 months ago

This is about to give "Killed by Google" a whole new meaning.

nfriedly|9 months ago

Hah!

But, in all seriousness, this could realistically be saving lives if you go with the assumption that Google was going to use this energy either way, and it otherwise would be coming from anything other than solar.

Every other source causes more deaths per energy produced. Coal is by far the worst, but natural gas, and even hydroelectric cost more lives than nuclear.

mmmBacon|9 months ago

It took about 1GW to train Chat-GPT4. If you look at the locations in the United States (>70% of all AI is in the US), there are only ~63 geographic regions you could put a 1GW data center. As AI models are growing at ~5x per year, it seems like the infrastructure is no in place to keep the AI models growing at that rate.

As companies like Google, Meta, and others look to nuclear power (it has the highest up time of any power source), I'm wondering how localities are going to react. Are people who are local to nuclear plants just going to be OK with these gigantic corporations consuming all this power in their backyard with no benefit to them while they take all the risk and impact of that power generation? I'm also wondering how these companies are going to deal with the excess nuclear waste. Ultimately it won't be Google or Meta dealing with the waste. How do we ensure that all the nuclear waste from AI is dealt with responsibly?

jeffbee|9 months ago

Training GPT-4 used (claimed) 62GW-h over 100 days, for an average of 26MW. Rest of your comment follows from this error.

26MW is a fraction of the primary power consumed by a single passenger aircraft, by the way. It is an absolutely trivial energy input.

XorNot|9 months ago

GW is a unit of power, not a unit of energy.

The best estimate I can find is 7.2GWh.

Which would be...7 hours of output from a 1GW powerplant.

r0m4n0|9 months ago

What is the alternative though? I think it’s fair to question a decision but if people put their foot down when they don’t see the answer as good or clear enough then you end up with the status quo. This is the same thing that happened with housing (and building projects in general) in many larger cities. If all the housing projects are squashed for some decent alternative reason, you end up with the alternate reality which is potentially worse. City’s that have massive sprawl, people relying on cars for travel, unaffordable housing, etc.

In the energy case, we will be more reliant on non nuclear power: coal, fossil fuel, etc. I’m not sure you can scale “clean energy” at the rate we are moving.

steren|9 months ago

GW is power. Gwh is energy.

Energy is what matters when training a model.

Please get your units right. In the meantime, down voted.

kridsdale1|9 months ago

Put all of it in the Greenland tundra. Free cooling. No humans to irradiate.

bongodongobob|9 months ago

Bzzt, wrong units, this isn't Facebook. Go find some data to back up your obviously incorrect claim and fix your post.