I used to be very impressed by this sort of stuff, because it baffled me.
It certainly sounds uber-impressive!
However, I have seen how error-prone it is, and also read and understood a little more about the mechanisms.
For one, I have had people tell me stuff they "read" in me. It was valuable as an insight as to what vibes I might be sending out, unbeknownst to me. But it tended to be laughably wrong about me.
Now you might think that this is just me being defensive..."you can't read me".
But people do get it wrong, and a girlfriend once confessed to me, somewhat exasperated: "I can't read you". To which I said: "You should try listening to me instead".
Communication ≫ Reading
I have also gotten quite a bit better at it myself, and it can be intoxicating. Because when it works it is almost magical.
But while it can be stunningly precise, it just isn't very accurate.
So it's a useful tool that can yield information, but don't get high on your own supply. Treat it as a very sensitive but also very noisy channel of information.
Humans generally use multiple channels of communication (speech, body language, etc.), not just one, and if someone says they can't read you, that doesn't mean they aren't paying attention to what you say, it means they are paying attention to more than that, and their is a perceived incongruence between the channels of communication.
And if it is someone who has been around you a lot, it means that the usual attunement through experience that adapts this multichannel communication to the quirks of particular individuals is still insufficient to resolve the incongruence.
This can be, among other things, connected to neurodivergence and lack of experience dealing with the particular form of neurodivergence beyond one individual.
> But people do get it wrong, and a girlfriend once confessed to me, somewhat exasperated: "I can't read you". To which I said: "You should try listening to me instead".
> Communication ≫ Reading
Mostly true, except sometimes people have a habit of saying one thing and doing another. Ultimately, actions are all that count in a relationship. Maybe that's what she was responding to?
I also have a partner that reads me poorly but I tend to read people, including her well. The key is that reading let's you see without letting you understand what you see. You never see the context which is among the reasons communication and listening are key.
Your comment is on point, but also, while I feel this article is kind of interesting, I fail to see it is relevant to Hacker News. I feel we are recently, often, going quite far off-topic.
It sort of works like pseudo-science and woo. It sounds impressive and even plausible but at the end of the day, it's asserting something unknowable as though it were truth, but is largely a product of projection.
Nevertheless, I can still read and appreciate it from _that_ perspective because it's always interesting to me to hear how others see the world.
I once met a gate agent in the Maui airport. She looked at me and my pregnant wife and congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other. Not sure what specifically she saw, but she told us if another couple she observed who were having a girl. She said the man looked like the type who didn't treat women that well, but who was clearly trying to be on his best behavior.
Most of the times situations are a complete cypher, but in more unisual cases when observing groups of people who know each other, you can tell how they feel from analyzing the behaviors.
This author is clearly in a privileged position in the wedding group. She's in the background with the specific job of looking at everyone and capturing their feelings. They don't try to hide their behavior or respond to her, and the usual western taboo against staring at strangers doesn't apply.
> congratulated us on our upcoming baby boy. I asked her how she knew. She said it was the way we carried ourselves and looked at each other.
Does she have more than a 50% succes rate?
In the wost case (null hypotesys?) that she can't tell, it's similar to the gambler falacy. She remember only the succes cases. People post online only the succes cases. Nobody remember the wrong cases.
In this case it doesn't matter, but there are evil people that use similar tricks for scams.
Often when we make guesses about other people, we reveal more about ourselves than the other person.
"She said the man looked like the type who didn't treat women that well"
Maybe she was right about this man, maybe she was wrong, but in either case that judgement came about because he reminded her of someone.
I'll go a step further. She assumed happy couple => boy, and future father seeming strained => girl...that gives me a guess about a difficulty she faced in childhood.
Of course I'm susceptible too. I jumped immediately to the "opposite sex parent had issues" narrative on reading a small anecdote about this woman. Is that the truth, or am I projecting something? Could be both?
Look at how you analyze others and you'll learn a lot about yourself.
Not only does she have a privileged position, but good artists are skilled at making their art convey emotions and feelings.
Telling a complex story in a static picture requires great attention to detail, and a solid understanding of how humans express emotion.
Before you can create art that captures these emotions, you need to be able to observe them. I am not at all surprised that countless hours painting people has helped her develop this skill!
I do think some people are very good at reading others. And I also think that as we generally don't see ourselves we may not realise how we come across. There is a huge amount of information we send out by how we hold ourselves/talk etc.
Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. But I also am aware that I can be wrong. Reading someone who is very quiet for example can be hard and more prone to error.
When I talk with someone I often do assess how much turn taking they do, particularly with a stranger. When I'm really engrossed in a conversation or I'm with a good friend I can sometimes turn off this assessment.
Final point - the article was a great read. I'd have been really interested in their views on gender differences in communication (there can be differences).
I would describe myself as the opposite of OP (very bad at reading people) so it was quite a shock the first time I met someone like this. Not only for the revelation that these type of people exist, but the experience of another person reading my "internal architecture" - and subsequently judging it - it opened a new avenue of self reflection for me. And while I think there's still a lot of the subjectivity in the author's formulation, I do have a relatively new appreciation for "people watching" insights like this now.
It’s actually not that surprising that some people are incredibly good at reading others. Your body is constantly broadcasting information through tiny facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, and even micro-movements. Every second, you’re sending out lots of signals, and some people are just especially tuned in to pick them up.
The interpretation isn’t always right, but if you’re good at engaging with people (mostly by listening) you’ll improve that skill pretty quickly.
I reached the same conclusion but in a roundabout way. I think the ultimate goal is to know about one's own self at the most deepest of levels. One way obviously is engaging with the self at a deeper level which is not always possible. Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to master.
However watching others and just collecting more datapoints help in the process of learning. You are learning to read and be more observant regardless of judgements.
She wrote, “seeing someone is like noticing their internal structure” — that line made me pause for a while.
As a kid, I used to think everyone could pick up on those tiny things in people — like the hesitation behind a sentence, or the way someone's eyes seem like they’re trying to escape.
Turns out, not everyone “sees” like that.
Watching people is more like passive resonance. Sometimes you’re just passing by, but your body has already picked up the entire vibe of that person. No words, just a quiet read.
Funnily enough, this response gives some insight into your personal affect. What kinds of mental states are capable of producing just such a reaction?
FWIW, hypothesizing attributes about a person is also just what's required to begin empathetically understanding them. Judging this as judgemental seems like an unpleasant kind of state to be in, at least to my eyes.
I certainly don't know you but have just as certainly felt some aspect of you. Hoping you are well, stranger.
I have to agree. There is a clear pattern indicating what she thinks is "the best way to live". Be open and be happy. Be otherwise at your own demise. It also sounds a lot like she is trying to convince herself she is striving for the right way of living. First it seemed she has a point, later in the post I felt she lacks intellectual humility, a "healthy" level (oh the irony) of doubt.
IMO "judgement" of a person carries a sense of finality and should be separated from one's "expectation" of a person.
I think it's okay to let your observations of someone guide your expectations of them so long as you are open to being wrong and do not use those expectations as justification for mistreating someone.
Just because they parse people this way, doesn't mean they're too attached to the results of that parsing (which is what I'd describe as being judgemental).
I once read a small book for an anthropology class, and got more and more puzzled, and rather incensed. It was covering its subject well but with this bizarre hodgepodge of different anthropological framings, some of them quite anachronistic, some current, jumping around with jarring inconsistency.
I got to the end (it was a small book, only maybe 110pp) wondering what in the heck this thing was, and flipped to look at the author at the back. And it was a missionary! Instantly my attitude flipped; I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense.
This author has good psychological insights, but her theoretical framings are somewhat mis-specified, inconsistent, sometimes out-of-date by psychological standards, to my eye. But it's very good stuff.
artist : psychologist :: missionary : anthropologist
"Missiology is the academic study of the Christian mission history and methodology". Earlier, Missiology used to be called as "Practical Anthropology". Even today, the best materials for learning phonetics and linguistics practically come from Christians, because of their drive to proselytize everyone on this earth, with various languages, etc. "Summer Institute of Linguistics" is one such.
The author draws overall conclusions based on observations at wedding parties.
I've know very many (techies) that are extremely introvert and yes, bored, in such an environment, yet when you would observe them at evening drinks at a tech conference, they would be engaged, open, interested, welcoming and kind.
I fear the author overextrapolates from a specific context to people across contexts.
This article perfectly mirrors my experience with people that claim to be good at reading people - just assume some things about person you are "reading" and then instantly believe it. It's really easy to be good at it when you don't need any grounding in reality.
A) The overconfident that self-describe as intuitive at reading people
B) people skilled at reading people
You have seen a lot of A and you are arguing that means that B doesn't exist.
I think that both exist.
For the B's it is a bit of a superpower, and I suspect they don't generally show off their superpower unless you have a very close relationship with them.
I am skilled enough to recognize the A's, but the B's are harder to recognize. To recognize the A's you have to be better at reading others than the A's are. To recognize the B's you need to be as skilled as them or better (which I believe is difficult, and uncommon).
When on the receiving end of A's or B's judgements you need to be able to read yourself better than they can plus you need to have zero self-denial: to judge if their reading is correct. Many people are just not that good at self-awareness (we often act according to childish drives).
It would still, like the broken clock, be correct sometimes. Our ability to understand others comes from, and is limited by, the fact that our feelings and behaviors are a mix from a shared palette.
That is exploitable. I tried it and it works. When I was 18 I got a job in a telemarketing boiler room. Two dozen people sitting at long tables with phones and scripts, asking for donations for various causes. Yes I should probably burn in hell for it, but I was a dumb kid.
The first day really sucked, but they let me try again and I came with a plan. Before every call imagine my feeling of love for that person. As I read the script, think "I love you grandma".
Something magical happened. I got like 3 donations out of 5 calls for the rest of the day. The boss was joyful, I was the flavor of the day. He presented me with an alarmingly large bonus when I left.
I was nauseated and never went back. That was my last job in sales.
The classic salesman tactic is that the salesman has to love the product. The best conmen have to con themselves first. They are basically method actors.
In our tech sphere we see this in tech hype circles where the early investors have to become believers and make new converts which turns into feedback loops of hype.
This seems like a set of well balanced, if not comprehensive, principles behind how people interact. Even if it's not complete, I think it can still be helpful. There's a lot here that resonates with me, but only in hindsight. I struggle with understanding people emotionally in the moment a lot of the time it'd benefit me if I could internalize this list.
As they say, all models are wrong, some are useful.
It helped me to do only try to understand myself in the moment or conversation than the other. It is not easy and most of us do not know ourselves.
It's actually kind of hard to do. You try to pay attention to the words you are saying, the thoughts you are thinking, the emotions, the feelings, the body posture of yourself. But it's got to be easier than trying to understand another.
Doing this eventually lead to a better perception of others. But by then I didn't need to try to do it. I'm still no where near as perceptive as the author of this submission but I've improved. However its a bit like a muscle and needs to be exercised or made into a discipline or habit and I have atrophied over time. I do still have my memories of this though.
One thing I noticed by observing others is that most people do not understand themselves. And I include myself in this group almost all the time too.
I should get back into this, thank you for your comment.
I suppose what is the main friction in this piece is the constant attribution of things to body or mind, as if they are independent, or as if cannot be both at once. A second friction is that I perceive the author has definitely learned to observe well, and has successfully learned to generalize based on past observations. But the author has difficulty moving from learned to explainable.
This post has all the hallmarks of some therapist's suggestion to focus on the external. Bit too much projection going on here, with a very definite "correctness" to the characterizations.
my life became a lot more fun once i realized work can literally be anything, if i know how to sell it
(this month i'm paying rent by writing mothers day poems for tech employees to mail their mom)
It's having a bit of pushback for presumption here, but considering this is "just" a list article, it seemed unusually thoughtful in its exposition of the author's perceptions. Genuinely interesting to read.
This stuff always reminds me of "The Adventure of the Greek Interpreter" from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes TV series (This is Season 2, Episode 2, originally aired in 1985). In this episode Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson are at 221B Baker Street, and Holmes gives a detailed demonstration of his observational and deductive skills by people-watching out the window.
[+] [-] mpweiher|10 months ago|reply
It certainly sounds uber-impressive!
However, I have seen how error-prone it is, and also read and understood a little more about the mechanisms.
For one, I have had people tell me stuff they "read" in me. It was valuable as an insight as to what vibes I might be sending out, unbeknownst to me. But it tended to be laughably wrong about me.
Now you might think that this is just me being defensive..."you can't read me".
But people do get it wrong, and a girlfriend once confessed to me, somewhat exasperated: "I can't read you". To which I said: "You should try listening to me instead".
Communication ≫ Reading
I have also gotten quite a bit better at it myself, and it can be intoxicating. Because when it works it is almost magical.
But while it can be stunningly precise, it just isn't very accurate.
So it's a useful tool that can yield information, but don't get high on your own supply. Treat it as a very sensitive but also very noisy channel of information.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|10 months ago|reply
And if it is someone who has been around you a lot, it means that the usual attunement through experience that adapts this multichannel communication to the quirks of particular individuals is still insufficient to resolve the incongruence.
This can be, among other things, connected to neurodivergence and lack of experience dealing with the particular form of neurodivergence beyond one individual.
[+] [-] pton_xd|10 months ago|reply
> Communication ≫ Reading
Mostly true, except sometimes people have a habit of saying one thing and doing another. Ultimately, actions are all that count in a relationship. Maybe that's what she was responding to?
[+] [-] JKCalhoun|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] erikerikson|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] ZeroTalent|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] dclowd9901|10 months ago|reply
Nevertheless, I can still read and appreciate it from _that_ perspective because it's always interesting to me to hear how others see the world.
[+] [-] neerajsi|10 months ago|reply
Most of the times situations are a complete cypher, but in more unisual cases when observing groups of people who know each other, you can tell how they feel from analyzing the behaviors.
This author is clearly in a privileged position in the wedding group. She's in the background with the specific job of looking at everyone and capturing their feelings. They don't try to hide their behavior or respond to her, and the usual western taboo against staring at strangers doesn't apply.
This was definitely a good read!
[+] [-] gus_massa|10 months ago|reply
Does she have more than a 50% succes rate?
In the wost case (null hypotesys?) that she can't tell, it's similar to the gambler falacy. She remember only the succes cases. People post online only the succes cases. Nobody remember the wrong cases.
In this case it doesn't matter, but there are evil people that use similar tricks for scams.
[+] [-] missinglugnut|10 months ago|reply
"She said the man looked like the type who didn't treat women that well"
Maybe she was right about this man, maybe she was wrong, but in either case that judgement came about because he reminded her of someone.
I'll go a step further. She assumed happy couple => boy, and future father seeming strained => girl...that gives me a guess about a difficulty she faced in childhood.
Of course I'm susceptible too. I jumped immediately to the "opposite sex parent had issues" narrative on reading a small anecdote about this woman. Is that the truth, or am I projecting something? Could be both?
Look at how you analyze others and you'll learn a lot about yourself.
[+] [-] lightning8113|10 months ago|reply
Telling a complex story in a static picture requires great attention to detail, and a solid understanding of how humans express emotion.
Before you can create art that captures these emotions, you need to be able to observe them. I am not at all surprised that countless hours painting people has helped her develop this skill!
[+] [-] SunlightEdge|10 months ago|reply
Personally I think I am very good at reading people's internal state. But I also am aware that I can be wrong. Reading someone who is very quiet for example can be hard and more prone to error.
When I talk with someone I often do assess how much turn taking they do, particularly with a stranger. When I'm really engrossed in a conversation or I'm with a good friend I can sometimes turn off this assessment.
Final point - the article was a great read. I'd have been really interested in their views on gender differences in communication (there can be differences).
[+] [-] kortilla|10 months ago|reply
How are you evaluating that?
[+] [-] disambiguation|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] spiderfarmer|10 months ago|reply
The interpretation isn’t always right, but if you’re good at engaging with people (mostly by listening) you’ll improve that skill pretty quickly.
[+] [-] pkoiralap|10 months ago|reply
However watching others and just collecting more datapoints help in the process of learning. You are learning to read and be more observant regardless of judgements.
I found the article really good.
[+] [-] Zorass|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] dillydogg|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] xelxebar|10 months ago|reply
FWIW, hypothesizing attributes about a person is also just what's required to begin empathetically understanding them. Judging this as judgemental seems like an unpleasant kind of state to be in, at least to my eyes.
I certainly don't know you but have just as certainly felt some aspect of you. Hoping you are well, stranger.
[+] [-] balazstorok|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] CivBase|10 months ago|reply
I think it's okay to let your observations of someone guide your expectations of them so long as you are open to being wrong and do not use those expectations as justification for mistreating someone.
[+] [-] tinktank|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] gwern|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] perching_aix|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] voxl|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] kadonoishi|10 months ago|reply
I got to the end (it was a small book, only maybe 110pp) wondering what in the heck this thing was, and flipped to look at the author at the back. And it was a missionary! Instantly my attitude flipped; I was in awe that a missionary could do such good anthropology, and the inconsistencies in framing made perfect sense.
This author has good psychological insights, but her theoretical framings are somewhat mis-specified, inconsistent, sometimes out-of-date by psychological standards, to my eye. But it's very good stuff.
artist : psychologist :: missionary : anthropologist
[+] [-] raincom|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] ragazzina|10 months ago|reply
The author graduated in Cultural Anthropology some 30 years before writing the book.
[+] [-] quietthrow|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] PeterStuer|10 months ago|reply
I've know very many (techies) that are extremely introvert and yes, bored, in such an environment, yet when you would observe them at evening drinks at a tech conference, they would be engaged, open, interested, welcoming and kind.
I fear the author overextrapolates from a specific context to people across contexts.
[+] [-] DeathRay2K|10 months ago|reply
It does not seem to me that the author claims otherwise.
[+] [-] azan_|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] robocat|10 months ago|reply
A) The overconfident that self-describe as intuitive at reading people
B) people skilled at reading people
You have seen a lot of A and you are arguing that means that B doesn't exist.
I think that both exist.
For the B's it is a bit of a superpower, and I suspect they don't generally show off their superpower unless you have a very close relationship with them.
I am skilled enough to recognize the A's, but the B's are harder to recognize. To recognize the A's you have to be better at reading others than the A's are. To recognize the B's you need to be as skilled as them or better (which I believe is difficult, and uncommon).
When on the receiving end of A's or B's judgements you need to be able to read yourself better than they can plus you need to have zero self-denial: to judge if their reading is correct. Many people are just not that good at self-awareness (we often act according to childish drives).
[+] [-] polishdude20|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] rixed|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] the_af|10 months ago|reply
Still, the article is insightful and a fun read.
[+] [-] delichon|10 months ago|reply
The first day really sucked, but they let me try again and I came with a plan. Before every call imagine my feeling of love for that person. As I read the script, think "I love you grandma".
Something magical happened. I got like 3 donations out of 5 calls for the rest of the day. The boss was joyful, I was the flavor of the day. He presented me with an alarmingly large bonus when I left.
I was nauseated and never went back. That was my last job in sales.
[+] [-] thinkingemote|10 months ago|reply
In our tech sphere we see this in tech hype circles where the early investors have to become believers and make new converts which turns into feedback loops of hype.
[+] [-] Bjartr|10 months ago|reply
As they say, all models are wrong, some are useful.
[+] [-] thinkingemote|10 months ago|reply
It's actually kind of hard to do. You try to pay attention to the words you are saying, the thoughts you are thinking, the emotions, the feelings, the body posture of yourself. But it's got to be easier than trying to understand another.
Doing this eventually lead to a better perception of others. But by then I didn't need to try to do it. I'm still no where near as perceptive as the author of this submission but I've improved. However its a bit like a muscle and needs to be exercised or made into a discipline or habit and I have atrophied over time. I do still have my memories of this though.
One thing I noticed by observing others is that most people do not understand themselves. And I include myself in this group almost all the time too.
I should get back into this, thank you for your comment.
[+] [-] gumboshoes|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Simon_O_Rourke|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] walterbell|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] sonofhans|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] boomskats|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] mellosouls|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] clueless|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] smcin|10 months ago|reply
Sherlock Holmes (1985) Season 2 Episode 2 The Greek Interpreter
[+] [-] taylorius|10 months ago|reply
[+] [-] analog31|10 months ago|reply