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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

461 points| axelfontaine | 9 months ago |yle.fi

446 comments

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Some comments were deferred for faster rendering.

vesinisa|9 months ago

Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606

My comments:

The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed.

> "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction."

Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

sbuttgereit|9 months ago

On the other hand....

"Unification to standard gauge on May 31 – June 1, 1886 [United States]

In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two days beginning on Monday, May 31, 1886. Over a period of 36 hours, tens of thousands of workers pulled the spikes from the west rail of all the broad gauge lines in the South, moved them 3 in (76 mm) east and spiked them back in place.[6] The new gauge was close enough that standard gauge equipment could run on it without problem. By June 1886, all major railroads in North America, an estimated 11,500 miles (18,500 km), were using approximately the same gauge. To facilitate the change, the inside spikes had been hammered into place at the new gauge in advance of the change. Rolling stock was altered to fit the new gauge at shops and rendezvous points throughout the South. The final conversion to true standard gauge took place gradually as part of routine track maintenance.[6] Now, the only broad-gauge rail tracks in the United States are on some city transit systems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_Stat...

zokier|9 months ago

There is one reason for optimism here: Finnish rail network is in quite poor shape and needs major work done anyways. So switching gauge allows funneling more EU funding into these projects that would need to be done either way. I imagine that e.g. the infamous Suomi-rata and ELSA projects will be revived as gauge switch.

Vinnl|9 months ago

To be fair, if we imagine a future in which this did happen, the start would also look like this, so who knows.

dotancohen|9 months ago

Underestimating the Finns' ability to just get stuff done seems to be a common motif throughout history.

cladopa|9 months ago

>Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

It is not that hard. Countries like Spain have already two different gauges and have the necessary technology in the trains to change between different systems.

tarvaina|9 months ago

Also it is one party (The Finns) presenting a rail initiative competing with their government partner's (National Coalition) older initiative. It is very unlikely that they both will be implemented.

WesolyKubeczek|9 months ago

Or they will start with a few of the most important lines that connect the countries and ports.

oblio|9 months ago

Fear of a foreign invasion by a country much larger than your, and one that occupied you once for 200 years and attacked you again just 20 years after independence tends to clear the mind.

gorgoiler|9 months ago

There ought to be good reason for optimism with this project. The land is already purchased so you “just” need to re-lay the track.

Ballast cleaners* are a thing and they are already pretty amazing at what they do, namely taking apart track and then putting it back, in place, from a machine that runs on those very tracks itself. I could imagine a giant version that not only cleans the ballast but also unties then reties the track back together at the new gauge.

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballast_cleaner

iggldiggl|9 months ago

A ballast cleaner wouldn't be enough, because you basically need to swap out the sleepers, too, so you need a complete track-relaying train. And anything involving switches and crossings needs to be done conventionally, because those cannot be rebuilt by simply switching out the sleepers for standard gauge ones.

zokier|9 months ago

> The land is already purchased so you “just” need to re-lay the track.

While the details are unknown, this project will almost certainly mean new tracks alongside the old tracks at least for the main lines. Which means that the existing corridors in many places would not have enough space. Additionally there is probably desire to improve the geometry to allow higher speed trains, so that makes the existing corridors less useful

blueflow|9 months ago

Get a look on the track topology on openrailwaymap:

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=62.774837258...

bartread|9 months ago

Fascinating map. I was about to ding it for missing all of the Swiss narrow gauge railways (of which there are many), but then I zoomed in a bit more and they all started to appear. Very cool.

jabl|9 months ago

That's only the main tracks. There's a huge amount not seen on that map.

reddalo|9 months ago

That's very interesting. I wonder why Spain is different than the rest of Europe, given it's connected by land.

It makes more sense for islands such as Ireland to retain their old gauge.

radicalbyte|9 months ago

This is a strategic move: it makes it easier to move weapons within Europe and makes it much harder for Russia should they invade.

Ideally you would want to do this all over Europe.

pjc50|9 months ago

Most of Europe is already on the same track width. I'm not sure whether the loading gauge (allowed size of train to fit under bridges) etc. is also standardized; it wasn't for the UK, which is why we can't have nice things like double decker commuter trains.

mytailorisrich|9 months ago

This only makes it potentially easier to move things from Norway and Sweden through the North of the country, and currently there are no railway from Norway to Finland (and they'll likely won't be) and Sweden to Finland has a single link (and would be destroyed within the first few hours of an invasion).

So little actual difference.

Cthulhu_|9 months ago

> Ideally you would want to do this all over Europe.

Not just for military purposes either, economically it makes sense. Trains can just keep going to the edges instead of having to stop and their cargo moved to a different gauge. I've heard they're planning on doing the same in the Baltic states.

tonymet|9 months ago

it's an absurd approach, and insane cost, if that's the goal.

regularization|9 months ago

> makes it much harder for Russia should they invade

If taking over Finland would help Russia, why didn't it do so in 1945 when it was there for the taking, to little protest from the UK and US? Russian had no use for it then, or now, other than the Karelian isthmus, which is part of Russia. Russia didn't raise much protest of Finland joining NATO. These notions of Russia having designs on Finland are loony.

thih9|9 months ago

> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades

How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else?

Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

Al-Khwarizmi|9 months ago

In Spain it's ongoing, very slowly, since the first international gauge high-speed rail line started operation in 1992.

It's a slow and quite annoying process. For example, to reach my region, trains from Madrid have to change gauge because my region still has the old one. Apart from spending around 10 minutes doing this, this has caused a lot of problems because it essentially means there is a single model of 300 km/h train that can make it here (others don't support gauge change) and to top it, said model turned out to be highly unreliable. This created a lot of political tension because of course we wanted 300 km/h trains like other regions, but now we're stuck with these lemons and our regional politicians push for gauge change, but the national government doesn't want to do it yet as it affects freight trains.

I hope at some point we get the change done in the whole national network, although generally it moves at a glacial pace. It makes sense to have seamless connection with France and the rest of Europe, and to be able to use the same trains everyone else does.

andriamanitra|9 months ago

Currently the leading plan is to build another narrower track alongside the existing ones (so the old trains can keep operating), but it is still in the planning phase. [1] I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself. I feel like you could move cargo from one train to another somewhere near the border for quite a long time with the money it is going to take to convert the entire rail network. Finland is only connected to Sweden and Norway by land in the North so it's not really going to connect the Finnish rail network to Europe either (unless the Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel [2] gets built, but it does not seem likely at this time).

[1] https://yle.fi/a/74-20161793

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki%E2%80%93Tallinn_Tunne...

yevgeby|9 months ago

There are several options nowadays. For instance, the Spanish train maker Talgo holds many patents for variable-gauge railroad wheel systems. Such systems can be used at scale for large projects. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge

dotancohen|9 months ago

  > Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?
Another large scale infrastructure change right in Finland (or was it Sweden?) was the switch from driving on the left hand side of the road to the right hand side of the road. They actually had local citizens one night dig up street signs and move them to the other side of the street.

jabl|9 months ago

In 1886 the USA switched the rail gauge of the southern states to standard gauge. Most of the work was done over two days.

http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html

Obviously doing this today would be a much more complicated affair, considering the much higher speeds and weights of contemporary trains.

rsynnott|9 months ago

> Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

There were a number of gauge changes, but they were usually quite early on, when the infra was less critical and you could get away with closing lines for months. I'm not sure that there's a real 20th century example, beyond standard gauge high speed alongside non-standard normal-speed (for instance see Spain, and likely soon Ireland).

jillesvangurp|9 months ago

They'll probably go line by line.

Here's a helpful overview from wikipedia: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Finnish_railroad_netwo...

I'm not sure how complete & up to date that is. But up north where the borders with Sweden and Norway are there isn't a whole lot of rail it seems. Norway's rail network doesn't extend that far. But Sweden gets pretty close to the Finnish border. I'm guessing a priority would be first connecting to their rail networks and then providing progressively more access to industrial hubs and eventually regional hubs.

This might also help with freight to the rest of Europe. Currently the only way into the country for freight is by ship (ferries, containers) or by road via northern Sweden. Sweden has decent north south rail connections and a bridge to Denmark. So extending coastal rail to Oulu would allow access to the rest of Finland for freight trains.

Just some thoughts.

hapidjus|9 months ago

I think you can ”upgrade” the tracks to use three rails so you can handle both track widths. Also there are trains with adjustabe axle widths.

russellbeattie|9 months ago

> "Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction."

Check back in in a few years and all your questions will be answered.

anticodon|9 months ago

> Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

Baltic states attempted this (project Rail Baltica). Lots of EU money were spent with no visible result. I guess, several people in Baltic states became super rich, but in terms of rail infrastructure nothing was done.

yason|9 months ago

The project is theoretically a good idea but it's not really practical, and nobody is honestly suggesting it for real -- surely plans are cheap, and planning is even cheaper. But there are fewer than handful of railway lines crossing over the eastern border to Russia. Those can be blown up for good, for long enough distance that it's not feasible for Russia to rebuild track and reconnect to the main network should they, at some point, want to fall in love with Finnish rail. Other than that, the only other rail connection is to Sweden up north where there's already some arrangements to accommodate two gauges. At this point we run out of new reasons to change the gauge, Finland is effectively an island when it comes to European railway network. Surely it would be nice to standardise with the rest of the Europe but it's not much more than that.

bell-cot|9 months ago

> But there are fewer than handful of railway lines crossing over the eastern border to Russia. Those can be blown up for good, for long enough distance that it's not feasible for Russia to rebuild track and reconnect to the main network should they ...

There is no such thing as "blown up for good" for a railway line. And similar for "not feasible for Russia to rebuild". Destroying enemy-held (or soon-to-be-captured) rail lines was a thing, at scale, in WWII. On the Russian Front. Similar for rebuilding captured rail lines to convert them from "enemy gauge" to "our gauge". At best, using a different gauge and rail destruction are delaying & resource-draining tactics.

mmooss|9 months ago

> The project is theoretically a good idea but it's not really practical

Why do you say that?

Yizahi|9 months ago

Good for them. Better integration obviously, but even more important, when ruzzians will invade, they won't have as easy logistics as in Ukraine. War logistics can be structured very differently, and unlike for example USA, ruzzia moves all of their assets on rail, due to immense distances and shitty road coverage. The major battles in Ukraine were over train lines and connectors, for example coastal Crimea to Azov line, or major lines in Donbass region. And in those areas they has success which they managed to protect later on. While in the areas with bad rail access, they lost spectacularly due to logistics, like north of Kyiv.

indiantinker|9 months ago

TBH, it seems like a questionable way to spend EU money. Technically, it's fascinating, but unless it's part of a broader geopolitical or long-term interoperability strategy, it's hard to justify the costs.

In Spain, we already deal with both Iberian and standard gauges—trains like the Talgo models can change gauges with minimal delay. It's not seamless, but it works reasonably well. Spain also has the world's second largest high speed train network.

What the EU could really benefit from is greater support for small companies and independent freelancers who are driving innovation. Unfortunately, governments (Spain included) often treat them as revenue sources, with high taxes and complex regulations, while large corporations can navigate around much of that with ease.

varsketiz|9 months ago

The goal is defence - to prevent easy russian train logistics deep into Finland.

apexalpha|9 months ago

At least the Russian gage is broader than the European one.

Imagine the cost if it was the other way around... Nevertheless, a valiant effort by the Finnish.

I guess we eventually have to do Ukraine (and Iberia?) too, so hopefully the lessons learned can be applied there.

IAmBroom|9 months ago

Why would it matter much? Either way, a new railway has to be built (others have pointed out dual-gauge is not workable).

Animats|9 months ago

Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are also putting in a "standard gauge" line, so they can interoperate with the rest of Europe.

What coupler are they going to use? Switching from Russian automatic couplers to European buffer and chain freight couplers is a step backwards. (It's amazing that the EU hasn't modernized freight couplers. There was something called "Eurocoupler" proposed in the 1970s, but it was never implemented. A "Digital Automatic Coupler" with data passthrough is being proposed now.)

Havoc|9 months ago

Is this connected to NATO & not being able to move military stuff fast? Timing sure seems to suggest that

larsnystrom|9 months ago

Yes, it is because of NATO. They've been thinking about it for some time, but NATO tipped the scales.

oblio|9 months ago

Russian military logistics are train based. If Finland switches away from their rail gauge, it's safer from Russian attack, since Russia wouldn't be able to easily carry supplies farther inside Finland.

panick21_|9 months ago

Doing this is a really nice opportunity for Finland. The should bundle it with many other upgrade. Doing general maintenance. Upgrade all the signaling (ETCS L2). Overhead electrify everything. Do minor speed upgrades. And so on.

If you are not doing all of this at once, this likely isn't worth it.

IAmBroom|9 months ago

The signalling you are describing is more complex and possibly more expensive than switching rail. Source: I work in rail traffic engineering.

The idea is simple. Ensuring everything is smooth and safe = cost multiplier.

pacifika|9 months ago

I’d imagine that would make planning and implementation more complex

mikewarot|9 months ago

Conversion to a narrower gauge should be a fairly straightforward process, unless concrete sleepers are in use. New axles or outright replacement of trucks shouldn't take multiple years of effort.

We did such things in the US in month long long ago.

thih9|9 months ago

You ignore the scale of the project, still present an estimate and compare the effort to something irrelevant, from a very different time and place. Are you my PM?

iggldiggl|9 months ago

> unless concrete sleepers are in use

Which they are, as even a quick search would have shown.

barbazoo|9 months ago

You mean in the late 19th century? Things have changed quite a bit since then.

eru|9 months ago

Interesting. Do you have more sources?

ur-whale|9 months ago

> in response to the need to improve military mobility

lol, I guess that this is only half of the equation, the other being to fairly obviously reduce military mobility for another class of vehicles.

AdrianB1|9 months ago

I understand why they do it, but I am curious why there is nobody in this kind of position that is going for something that is better in technical terms, not just compatible. For example, 2 meters or even 2.5m would provide better load capacity and better stability for high speed curves, while keeping the width of the carriages the same in order to fit existing tunnels. For new freight lines even 3 meters may be much better that refitting to the relatively narrow standard.

crote|9 months ago

Because the benefits are negligible.

Freight-wise, better load capacity can also be solved by ballastless track, using additional axles, or running longer trains. Passenger-wise, better stability can also be solved with canting - and wider tracks means significantly larger curves.

In return you get to buy significantly more expensive one-off trains and are unable to connect to your neighbors. Not exactly a great deal, is it?

BurningFrog|9 months ago

My refactoring brain wants to do this by adding the new rail next to the old one, so you can still run the old trains while building.

But 89mm is probably too small a margin for that to work.

cromulent|9 months ago

Note that the proposal for this came from the EU Commission over the last few years - the Trans-European Transport Network (TEN-T). Initially Finland pushed back on it as being too expensive.

https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...

mytailorisrich|9 months ago

There is little benefit for the cost for Finland. Currently I believe that there are no railway between Finland and the rest of the EU, with the first one to Sweden under construction (and obviously a huge detour since the only land connection is through the North of the country).

harha_|9 months ago

I'd like to have high speed railways in my country, not some decades long political conversion project. If we need railways that can go across the borders of our neighboring countries, build new ones instead of upgrading existing ones.

Propelloni|9 months ago

Upgrading is magnitudes faster than building new. Apparently the current Finnisch idea is to actually build new tracks next to the old one, which requires wider beds, which requires more land, which requires more negotiations. Replacing in situ would be faster, but you would cripple your whole network for the duration.

It's a tradeoff and worthy of deliberation.

MrDresden|9 months ago

I'm kind of surprised that this hadn't already been decided on years ago, seeing as the Baltics for example have been working towards this switch for years now already as part of the Euro Trans-T project.

vonnik|9 months ago

This has clear military implications, as it will eventually allow larger amounts of equipment to be shipped quickly from fellow NATO countries.

ggm|9 months ago

Good to have ambition and invest in the future. If they can straighten tight bends, double track judiciously, improve gradients lots of things get better.

ashoeafoot|9 months ago

anti-invasion projects. Up next posting pro Russian narratives or other anti democratic ideologies gets you deported to the real existing implementation of said ideology. The free speach "autocracies pushing internal subversion" has to go. Yes, this cuts left, right and center.

worldsayshi|9 months ago

I wonder if there will be measures for backwards compatibility in the transition period. Like having dual track widths.

helsinkiandrew|9 months ago

There's only 89mm difference between the two widths - I'd guess that isn't enough room to have both on the same track.

M95D|9 months ago

I very much doubt it. Change to dual-gauge requires replacing the sleepers, and if they do the very hard work of replacing the sleepers, then why keep broad gauge?

Maybe they would choose to downgrade a single track where there's two, and half of each station's lines, but that would make it very difficult to schedule trains in both directions on a single track. So, they're probably not going to do that either.

Sharlin|9 months ago

The only feasible way to do this (based on preliminary reports) is to simply build new track next to old track in the same right-of-way. The transition period would last decades.

chinathrow|9 months ago

Wow, I thought that might make sense with an agressive nation state at the border before even reading the article.

Intesting times.

varsketiz|9 months ago

As someone from a country neighbouring russia, I wish my country decided to do this as well.

jajko|9 months ago

Every country in such position wishes for that (sans mandatory smaller part of population utterly brainwashed on some simplistic panslavic anti-soros fairy tales, when in reality russians cough cough soviets killed more slavs in past 150 years than all external adversaries combined, included nazi WWII warfare and genocides).

I don't think russians like to acknowledge how hated their country actually is, universally, across all countries that ever dealt with them on their soil long term, including former soviet republics and ie Warsaw pact. Not russian civilian population just to be clear but country as a whole definitely, just a consistently safe harbor for biggest scum mankind can produce.

entropyneur|9 months ago

2032 just to start is way too late. The invasion will start before the end of the current US presidential term. Although it's useful to plan for the best case as well, I guess.

openplatypus|9 months ago

My heart sunk after reading this paragraph:

> The government is expected to make the final decision by July 2027, with construction starting around 2032.

eviks|9 months ago

> The government is expected to make the final decision by July 2027

You can't announce migration if you haven't decided you plan to migrate...

IAmBroom|9 months ago

Yes, this is political marketing.

jarek83|9 months ago

Given the 5 year estimate until full-scale russian invasion against EU, it's gonna be to late.

forty|9 months ago

France has its own nuclear power and I don't think it could really avoid being involved like we did for Ukraine if war was to cross EU border (my perspective as a French citizen)

barbazoo|9 months ago

Oh I didn’t know they published their timeline. Do you have a link?

cake-rusk|9 months ago

The rest of europe should move to the broader guage. It is more stable.

jabl|9 months ago

The difference is so marginal it doesn't matter, and is certainly not worth the cost.

Both the heaviest cargo trains and the fastest passenger trains (ignoring monorails, maglevs etc., just normal style trains running on two steel rails) on the planet run on standard gauge.

rurban|9 months ago

Now we only need the announcement of Deutsche Bahn to convert fully to electrical, abandoning the gas locomotives, paving the way to interact with more advanced railway nations like Poland.

MiguelX413|9 months ago

Both Germany and Poland are only mostly electrified.

IAmBroom|9 months ago

Unrelated in every way except it involves rail.

Ekaros|9 months ago

Just note Finland uses the Tsarist Russian 1524 mm gauge. Not the Allied Soviet 1520 mm gauge.

jabl|9 months ago

Not incidentally, 1524mm is exactly 5 feet. Which was the rail gauge widely used in the southern US states. The Russian tsar hired someone who had been building railroads in the US south to design his railroad, and here we are.

The 1520mm was some Soviet effort to "metrify" their railways while keeping compatibility with existing rolling stock.

freetonik|9 months ago

Interesting. In practice they seem compatible? There were frequent trains running between Helsinki and Saint Petersburg, I remember taking it and there was a seamless transition across the border.

pif|9 months ago

[deleted]

meindnoch|9 months ago

He probably regrets it.