Languages that encourage making DSLs are a two-edged sword. On the one hand, you get to make a language that is more clear and fine-tuned to your use-case. On the other, you have an ad-hoc language with no support that you have to maintain along with the documentation (considering that you can't expect anyone else to know the DSL ahead of time). As I've gotten older, I've determined that well-designed APIs in a well-known language are a better alternative to DSLs.
I’m right there with you. Modern languages have such a plethora of tooling available that DSLs and any API approaching a DSL have this massive gap unless they really embrace whatever patterns the host language’s tooling enables.
Not long ago, i had to work with a coworker’s mini language and function runner engine, which was basically a mini programming language. Except without a debugger or type checker or stack traces or any of the other million niceties we’d have had if we just used the host language to execute things ‘natively.’
That said, while the level of tooling for big languages goes up, the bar for creating yesteryear’s tooling is going down, with all the LSP tooling we have now, for example. Maybe someday we’ll get languages with tools where libraries have nice tooling without crazy dev effort, and then we’ll change our tune on DSLs.
Even DSLs of huge and successful projects are more often than not bad. As a rule if you think that you can create a better query language than SQL, please spare us. JQL, Elastic Query DSL, KQL... Don't.
It has been interesting to watch the Clojure community’s take on DSLs over time. Clojure is a Lisp, and Lisps are notorious for inventing DSLs, particularly after PG’s various papers promoted that as a superpower of sorts. Clojure has gone the other direction and, while it supports macros, it generally discourages their use unless you’ve tried everything else first. But it still encourages DSLs built from the native Clojure data structures. So, for instance Hiccup for HTML generation.
I've been thinking about this a lot. DSLs solve an important problem, but they do it in the wrong direction.
It's impossible to write objective fact. Everything we write is subjected to the context it is expressed in, including the grammar that we use to write it. A DSL accommodates this by letting you make a new grammar on the fly. The trouble is, this doesn't help us get out of the context we are writing in already: it only lets us enter a new one that is nested inside.
So what if we could actually get out? What if we could write from outside of the context we are writing? That's the idea I'm working on. I think it's possible, but it's such an abstract idea that it's tricky to get a handle on.
An API is an interface, metaprogramming is a technique for building such interfaces by treating code as data. They aren't interchangeable concepts.
Metaprogramming comes in handy when ordinary programming results in a lot of complex, hence unmaintainable, code or can't achieve something due to how the language is implemented. It can vastly simplify how you express application logic, e.g. when interfacing with foreign programming languages such as SQL or generating code from data.
Any sane metaprogramming regime allows you to do something like macro expansion, i.e. look at the code the metaprogramming is compiled into in the current context.
this is a very important lesson. I remember the frustration of dealing with the Gradle and whatever was the name of the DSL used by Fastlane. Gradle especially kept changing so documentation was never really useful and there was zero help from the tooling
I don't remember how I found it, but REBOL was one of the first programming languages I learned around 25 years ago. Most of my personal projects are still written in it.
I wrote a small app in REBOL once, just too automate some stuff for some managers in a job about 20 years ago. It's quite nice, but I don't think I'd want to write anything significant with it.
"In 1988, Sassenrath left Silicon Valley for the mountains of Ukiah valley, 2 hours north of San Francisco. From there he founded multimedia technology companies such as Pantaray, American Multimedia, and VideoStream. He also implemented the Logo programming language for the Amiga, managed the software OS development for CDTV, one of the first CD-ROM TV set-top boxes, and wrote the OS for Viscorp Ed, one of the first Internet TV set-top boxes."
I used it once to build a simple web scraper and image downloader, and it worked really great for that. It was right in the wheelhouse for the language. (That was REBOL, not RED, and many years ago.) Honestly I'd just do it in Python, now, even though it's not as interesting.
Same. I was regularly following it until they started talking about an ICO and began focusing too much on making a dialect for block chain stuff.
The idea between having the red system language, regular scripting language, cross platform gui, and native executables was really cool though. I remember being interested back in ~2015, so my question is...what's going on as it's been a decade. I know the project is crazy ambitious of course, but how close are we to where this is at a stage where most would consider it production worthy.
1) I'm part of Team Red.
2) You can like, dislike, embrace, or discount a language (or anything for that matter) for any reason that's important to you.
3) I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, just to provide some information and my own thoughts and opinions.
4) I'm not going to justify or argue the state of things in Red today. It is what it is. Lots of high level things are easy to talk (or complain) about, while some other really cool tech lives in the shadows, but is also important.
5) In Red we call embedded DSLs "dialects", just for clarity in what I write.
Red is more different than you may think, just by looking at it. It is designed such that things that look familiar may work very differently under the hood. That's good for making people comfortable, but also means you can't judge a book completely by its cover.
Red is a data format first. That's very Lisp-like, but Red goes further with the large number of datatypes that have a lexical form. e.g. email, url, pair, point, file, date, time, money, etc. Where Lisp* says code is data and data is code, we tend to say "Everything is data until it is evaluated." Rebol was only interpreted, but Red (not all Red however, as some things are too dynamic and require JiT, which we don't have yet) can be compiled.
Red compiles to Red/System (R/S) code. R/S is a static dialect (DSL) of Red, which compiles directly to machine code. No external compiler or C code gen. So you can write DSLs in Red, and those DSLs can be higher or lower level. We call this Metal to Meta programming. Compile a small R/S program, and you will see it's fast, and fully standalone. Compile Red in Dev mode, where the runtime isn't rebuilt, and it's also fast (after the first time). Compile in encap mode and...more to explain. Compile for release and it takes time, but gives you a standalone EXE. It's slow for a number of reasons. Just the current state of things. Compilation speed has not been a priority.
On APIs vs DSLs, a key distinction for me is that API don't have a natural way to enforce the order of operations. That's where a grammar adds value. And because Red is often self-consuming data, the ability to write grammars (`parse` rules) that are very BNF/PEG like, it makes data handling quite powerful. I also think it's easier than most other systems, but that's me, and I've been in the Redbol (Red+Rebol) world for a long time. Two related notes on that. 1) `parse` is, itself a dialect of Red. 2) You can parse not only at the character/string level, but at the value and datatype level, including literal values and typesets. Typesets are a way to express datatypes that are related. e.g. the `number!` typeset matches `[integer! float! percent!]` types. All that said, Red is a multi-paradigm language, including functional (though not pure functional), so you can absolutely build things in an OOP/lib/API manner if you prefer.
Infix came up, and the model is simple. Infix ops have a higher precedence than func calls, but there is no other operator precedence. Strictly left to right for ops. And, yes, operators are a datatype and you can make your own from most 2-arity funcs.
Func args are not enclosed in parens or brackets. This is a fundamental aspect that takes some getting used to. Once you do, at least from what I've seen through the years, it feels natural. We call this "free ranging evaluation" and it's a powerful aspect of Red. It also plays into dialect design. Red is sufficiently flexible that you could hack around this if you want, but then you're fighting the language, rather than working with it.
Red is high level and garbage collected, but it is not "safe" by some standards. Mutability is the default, values are strongly typed but variables are not, you can mix Red and Red/System pretty much however you want, and R/S is basically a C-level language. We talk about these tradeoffs a lot, and how to find a balance. Nothing comes for free.
One of the main dialects in Red, along with `parse`, is the `VID Visual Interface Dialect`. This is how you describe GUIs for Red's cross platform GUI system. You could also build a tree of faces manually, or write your own GUI dialect or API.
Another cross-platform note. Yes, we are 32-bit only at the moment. It hurts us as much as it hurts you. But Red can cross compile from and to any system it runs on. No other software or compilers needed; just a command line switch.
One of our primary goals is to "fight software complexity". That doesn't mean Red will look like C, or JS, or Python. It doesn't mean any one thing. It means a lot of things working in concert. We also hope to keep Red small and easy to set up. Today you can still just drop the EXE somewhere and go. The toolchain (interpreter+compiler) is ~1.5M and the REPLs (text mode and GUI mode, separately) are just over ~2M. We may offer more options at some point, ideas like using LLVM come up a lot. While they solve some problems, they create others. So far, the costs have been deemed unacceptable, and we don't have any showstoppers (other than time). But since Red is open source, with a permissive license...
I agree that this particular coding example looks good. I find it aesthetically pleasing for some reason. But like you I don’t know the language, which leaves me with a question, does this code make understanding the function’s operation and implicit usage contract (i.e. the function’s type) clear to a dev that does know the language?
I would assume it does, because I assume I be able to know these things in a comparable JS or Python example. But if that assumption is correct I really like the ‘look’ of Red.
I have tried Rebol out a little, multiple times over the years. it's a cool language. I like it.
I also got to know about Red early, followed it and tried it out for a bit.
but as others have said, that move to crypto, to fund the dev work and make the devs money, put me off for good. nothing wrong with making money, let them make plenty, I just didn't jive with crypto as a way of doing it.
This is like the only programming language I could never learn. I just don't understand anything and I can't build any mental model of what's going on behind the hood
I wrote a paper on REBOL back in college. It is very interesting, but the syntax is definitely weird. You might think of the function call syntax as being sort of Forth-like, but with the tokens in reverse order. So like a Lisp, but without required parentheses. e.g. in the example
send friend@rebol.com read http://www.cnn.com
`read` knows that it takes one argument, and `send` knows that it takes two, so this ends up being grouped like
(send friend@rebol.com (read http://www.cnn.com))
(which I think is valid syntax; that AST node is called a 'paren').
Weirdly, the language also has some infix operators, which seem a bit out-of-place to me. I have no idea how the 'parser'[1] works.
[1] 'parsing' happens so late that it feels funny to call it that. The thing that knows how to treat an array as a representation of an evaluatable expression and evaluate it.
When I look at a programming language site, especially for a "new" language, I want a quick way to navigate to a reasonably sized decent code sample, ideally documented, showing off significant language features, idiomatic syntax and usage patterns etc...
Sites which do this well (just from the top of my head):
https://odin-lang.org/
immediate code sample visible
"See the Full Demo"
"See More Examples"
https://ziglang.org/
immediate code sample
scroll down a bit, "More Code Samples"
Here on red-lang.org... I can barely find a consecutive meaningful chunk of code... ?
"Getting Started" Nope
"Documentation" Nope
"Official Documentation" link to github
https://github.com/red/docs/blob/master/en/SUMMARY.adoc
"Home"
merely a chronologically sorted blog
newest entry links to 50 line "script" by chance
showing off multi-monitor support
(doesn't seem like a super helpful sample)
?
But no one has bothered to write a complete manual like Carl did for Rebol, and the language is a partial implementation in Rebol which has a hybrid Rebol/Red syntax that must ultimately be bootstrapped in Red. In short, you have the scaffolding around it and if you are not a total fan or a dev of the project it is not even worth it.
They used to promise that proper docs and everything would come when the language reaches 1.0. That was 7 years ago. The language is at version 0.6.6 today, and the state of docs is the same as 7 (and 10) years ago.
There are at best two people working on the language, and they both don't have the time and have a very weird approach to docs (like posting extensive google docs or pastebin explanations, but never actually having any proper documentation)
ah, this is not about the Red Language that Intermetrics designed in 1977-79 to satisfy the Steelman requirements of the DoD's High Order Language Working Group... (the Green Language won and became known as Ada).
I thought maybe someone had put the DoD's Red language spec online.
So, REBOL and Red are basically Fexpr-based Lisps, right? They never describe themselves this way (instead using terms like definitional scoping, etc.), but it all just seems like a non-rigorous Fexpr based Lisp (almost like a light-weight version of vau-calculus of Kernel).
I don't think in Red a function can decide whether to evaluate its arguments or not. It's more like a Logo: functions have fixed arity, so you don't need to delimite the call, and lists ("blocks") are always quoted, so you need to explicitly evaluate them.
Maybe it's just bias based on what I'm familiar with but I don't really like the syntax, or at least I can't understand any of it intuitively. Looking at the few examples I can find, it doesn't appear to be obvious without having to look at and interpret a bunch of surrounding context for clues to what a particular token is, e.g. a function name, a variable, an argument to a function and what function it is an argument to, the type of a variable, a value being assigned to it, etc. I see a lot of lines of code that are just several strings in a row without any sort of punctuation.
red-lang.org is blocked!
Phantom believes this website is malicious and unsafe to use.
This site has been flagged as part of a community-maintained database of known phishing websites and scams. If you believe the site has been flagged in error, please file an issue.
Ignore this warning, take me to https://www.red-lang.org/p/about.html anyway.
There aren't many parser libraries for languages other than ruby. Its Ruby implementation, Asciidoctor, is considered as the reference implementation. However, it's being standardized and the situation will hopefully improve.
It's a little more complex, but I like it too. I've worked in teams that put all in-repo documentation in Asciidoc, it was really nice for adding in diagrams of complex systems and dependency trees.
The website looks like 2013 and much of the content is as well. There's a GitHub repo that I couldn't find from the website: https://github.com/red/red
> Red’s ambitious goal is to build the world’s first full-stack language, a language you can use from system programming tasks, up to high-level scripting through DSL.
Pretty nonsensical statement. We have that for 50 years. Common Lisp, for example.
Go compiles massive codebases in that time. V can recompile itself probably 2-3x in that time.
I don't take any new language seriously unless it's memory safe, free of UB, able to interoperate with what already exists including optional shared libraries (because static linking the world every time in everything is memory and disk wasteful), and assists formal proofs of correctness. Otherwise, what already exists seems preferable for serious use and hobbies can remain fun distractions.
taylorallred|9 months ago
6gvONxR4sf7o|9 months ago
Not long ago, i had to work with a coworker’s mini language and function runner engine, which was basically a mini programming language. Except without a debugger or type checker or stack traces or any of the other million niceties we’d have had if we just used the host language to execute things ‘natively.’
That said, while the level of tooling for big languages goes up, the bar for creating yesteryear’s tooling is going down, with all the LSP tooling we have now, for example. Maybe someday we’ll get languages with tools where libraries have nice tooling without crazy dev effort, and then we’ll change our tune on DSLs.
satoru42|9 months ago
SkyPuncher|9 months ago
drdrek|9 months ago
drob518|9 months ago
thomastjeffery|9 months ago
It's impossible to write objective fact. Everything we write is subjected to the context it is expressed in, including the grammar that we use to write it. A DSL accommodates this by letting you make a new grammar on the fly. The trouble is, this doesn't help us get out of the context we are writing in already: it only lets us enter a new one that is nested inside.
So what if we could actually get out? What if we could write from outside of the context we are writing? That's the idea I'm working on. I think it's possible, but it's such an abstract idea that it's tricky to get a handle on.
vidarh|9 months ago
cess11|9 months ago
Metaprogramming comes in handy when ordinary programming results in a lot of complex, hence unmaintainable, code or can't achieve something due to how the language is implemented. It can vastly simplify how you express application logic, e.g. when interfacing with foreign programming languages such as SQL or generating code from data.
Any sane metaprogramming regime allows you to do something like macro expansion, i.e. look at the code the metaprogramming is compiled into in the current context.
agos|9 months ago
andai|9 months ago
kstrauser|9 months ago
I've looked it a few times over the years. It's neat. I've never written a single line of it, though.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebol
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sassenrath
Izkata|9 months ago
I have yet to try converting anything to Red.
gt0|9 months ago
dev_l1x_be|9 months ago
What a legend!
kbelder|9 months ago
justin66|9 months ago
7thaccount|9 months ago
The idea between having the red system language, regular scripting language, cross platform gui, and native executables was really cool though. I remember being interested back in ~2015, so my question is...what's going on as it's been a decade. I know the project is crazy ambitious of course, but how close are we to where this is at a stage where most would consider it production worthy.
therein|9 months ago
https://i.imgur.com/a/phd4lVr
greggirwin|9 months ago
Red is more different than you may think, just by looking at it. It is designed such that things that look familiar may work very differently under the hood. That's good for making people comfortable, but also means you can't judge a book completely by its cover.
Red is a data format first. That's very Lisp-like, but Red goes further with the large number of datatypes that have a lexical form. e.g. email, url, pair, point, file, date, time, money, etc. Where Lisp* says code is data and data is code, we tend to say "Everything is data until it is evaluated." Rebol was only interpreted, but Red (not all Red however, as some things are too dynamic and require JiT, which we don't have yet) can be compiled.
Red compiles to Red/System (R/S) code. R/S is a static dialect (DSL) of Red, which compiles directly to machine code. No external compiler or C code gen. So you can write DSLs in Red, and those DSLs can be higher or lower level. We call this Metal to Meta programming. Compile a small R/S program, and you will see it's fast, and fully standalone. Compile Red in Dev mode, where the runtime isn't rebuilt, and it's also fast (after the first time). Compile in encap mode and...more to explain. Compile for release and it takes time, but gives you a standalone EXE. It's slow for a number of reasons. Just the current state of things. Compilation speed has not been a priority.
On APIs vs DSLs, a key distinction for me is that API don't have a natural way to enforce the order of operations. That's where a grammar adds value. And because Red is often self-consuming data, the ability to write grammars (`parse` rules) that are very BNF/PEG like, it makes data handling quite powerful. I also think it's easier than most other systems, but that's me, and I've been in the Redbol (Red+Rebol) world for a long time. Two related notes on that. 1) `parse` is, itself a dialect of Red. 2) You can parse not only at the character/string level, but at the value and datatype level, including literal values and typesets. Typesets are a way to express datatypes that are related. e.g. the `number!` typeset matches `[integer! float! percent!]` types. All that said, Red is a multi-paradigm language, including functional (though not pure functional), so you can absolutely build things in an OOP/lib/API manner if you prefer.
Infix came up, and the model is simple. Infix ops have a higher precedence than func calls, but there is no other operator precedence. Strictly left to right for ops. And, yes, operators are a datatype and you can make your own from most 2-arity funcs.
Func args are not enclosed in parens or brackets. This is a fundamental aspect that takes some getting used to. Once you do, at least from what I've seen through the years, it feels natural. We call this "free ranging evaluation" and it's a powerful aspect of Red. It also plays into dialect design. Red is sufficiently flexible that you could hack around this if you want, but then you're fighting the language, rather than working with it.
Red is high level and garbage collected, but it is not "safe" by some standards. Mutability is the default, values are strongly typed but variables are not, you can mix Red and Red/System pretty much however you want, and R/S is basically a C-level language. We talk about these tradeoffs a lot, and how to find a balance. Nothing comes for free.
One of the main dialects in Red, along with `parse`, is the `VID Visual Interface Dialect`. This is how you describe GUIs for Red's cross platform GUI system. You could also build a tree of faces manually, or write your own GUI dialect or API.
Another cross-platform note. Yes, we are 32-bit only at the moment. It hurts us as much as it hurts you. But Red can cross compile from and to any system it runs on. No other software or compilers needed; just a command line switch.
One of our primary goals is to "fight software complexity". That doesn't mean Red will look like C, or JS, or Python. It doesn't mean any one thing. It means a lot of things working in concert. We also hope to keep Red small and easy to set up. Today you can still just drop the EXE somewhere and go. The toolchain (interpreter+compiler) is ~1.5M and the REPLs (text mode and GUI mode, separately) are just over ~2M. We may offer more options at some point, ideas like using LLVM come up a lot. While they solve some problems, they create others. So far, the costs have been deemed unacceptable, and we don't have any showstoppers (other than time). But since Red is open source, with a permissive license...
Happy Reducing!
ksymph|9 months ago
It's very elegant! I can't fully grasp everything that's happening but the visual appearance of the syntax alone is interesting.
[0] https://github.com/red/code/blob/master/Scripts/clock.red
throwaway17_17|9 months ago
I would assume it does, because I assume I be able to know these things in a comparable JS or Python example. But if that assumption is correct I really like the ‘look’ of Red.
cess11|9 months ago
https://redata.dev/smartxml/
If it's robust it seems rather neat.
fuzztester|9 months ago
I also got to know about Red early, followed it and tried it out for a bit.
but as others have said, that move to crypto, to fund the dev work and make the devs money, put me off for good. nothing wrong with making money, let them make plenty, I just didn't jive with crypto as a way of doing it.
sad about it going that route
ttoinou|9 months ago
TOGoS|9 months ago
Weirdly, the language also has some infix operators, which seem a bit out-of-place to me. I have no idea how the 'parser'[1] works.
[1] 'parsing' happens so late that it feels funny to call it that. The thing that knows how to treat an array as a representation of an evaluatable expression and evaluate it.
almostgotcaught|9 months ago
dmitrygr|9 months ago
Wait till you hear of Urbit and see this: https://developers.urbit.org/overview/nock
bsrkf|9 months ago
Sites which do this well (just from the top of my head):
Here on red-lang.org... I can barely find a consecutive meaningful chunk of code... ?LkpPo|9 months ago
But no one has bothered to write a complete manual like Carl did for Rebol, and the language is a partial implementation in Rebol which has a hybrid Rebol/Red syntax that must ultimately be bootstrapped in Red. In short, you have the scaffolding around it and if you are not a total fan or a dev of the project it is not even worth it.
troupo|9 months ago
There are at best two people working on the language, and they both don't have the time and have a very weird approach to docs (like posting extensive google docs or pastebin explanations, but never actually having any proper documentation)
zerealshadowban|9 months ago
I thought maybe someone had put the DoD's Red language spec online.
And yes, someone has: https://iment.com/maida/computer/redref/
HexDecOctBin|9 months ago
tangus|9 months ago
spjt|9 months ago
lagniappe|9 months ago
tangus|9 months ago
aabbcc1241|9 months ago
goku12|9 months ago
cess11|9 months ago
ConanRus|9 months ago
anta40|9 months ago
unknown|9 months ago
[deleted]
debo_|9 months ago
croemer|9 months ago
pabs3|9 months ago
The website has posts from 2025:
https://www.red-lang.org/2025/04/multiple-monitors-support.h...
Unless you mean the theme, thats probably just a standard Google Blogger/Blogspot theme, which has been around for 25 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogger_(service)
worldsayshi|9 months ago
kscarlet|9 months ago
Pretty nonsensical statement. We have that for 50 years. Common Lisp, for example.
niek_pas|9 months ago
dittonedo|9 months ago
sim7c00|9 months ago
For 'platforms' it notes for x86_64, "linux" and other operating systems.
is there a compiler option for this thing to make it spit out a 'freestanding' binary for the architectures it supports?
emmelaich|9 months ago
Seems the last release (alpha) was in 2015.
38|9 months ago
https://github.com/red/red/issues/5615
burnt-resistor|9 months ago
I don't take any new language seriously unless it's memory safe, free of UB, able to interoperate with what already exists including optional shared libraries (because static linking the world every time in everything is memory and disk wasteful), and assists formal proofs of correctness. Otherwise, what already exists seems preferable for serious use and hobbies can remain fun distractions.