It's quite well-written, and the way the singularity unfolds is compellingly imagined. It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. The streaks of graphic violence, though hard to stomach, serve to underscore this theme in a provocative way. And Caroline is fantastic.
That last chapter, though. It's so bizarre, so fetishistic, so needlessly squicky, that it just about ruins everything that came before. IMHO, it would be better if it just ended at the cliffhanger in the penultimate chapter.
That said, I'd love to read the long-awaited sequel (The Transmigration of Prime Intellect). I've also heard rumblings of a movie deal, though one likely consigned to either development hell or a rewrite that leaves it an adaptation in name only.
It's always fascinated me how the incest scene in the final chapter elicits this response, but the much more explicit rape and sexualized torture earlier in the book comes in for no similar obloquy. Specifically, the rape and sexualized torture with which the book approximately starts. This people are on board for, but not the other. Both are about twisted sex stuff, but only one actually upsets people who otherwise highly value the work. That seems inconsistent enough to require some explanation.
The narrative is at pains to be clear neither is less consensual than the other, so that can't be the basis for objecting to one and not the other. There is also an explicit contrast drawn at length in the text between the twisted nihilism of a purposeless universe early on, and what occurs at the end: Caroline muses aloud that had she awakened next to the to-have-been-executed child rapist and murderer whose sexual fancies she had entertained within the simulation, her response would have been instantly and ferociously - and necessarily - lethal, while her daughter's controversial actions in the final chapter take place at Caroline's explicit urging - practically at her direction. So if the concern were that the moral center of the novel had failed, I would expect to see criticism on that basis, rather than a retail effort at censorship.
Likewise, though it's been years since I bothered to reread, I don't really recall the quality of the writing changing, either; it's determinedly mediocre throughout, no less in the last chapter than elsewhere.
Well, as I said, I've never understood why people so easily excuse the pedophilic rape and murder scenes early in the book, while what comes later is such a problem. It still seems inconsistent to me, but I have only my own experience of childhood rape and sexual torture at my now-dead father's hands to draw on, which here no doubt ill equips me to speak.
>It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed.
I'm not so sure about this. It's hard not to see these kinds of "actually, paradise actually wouldn't be so great" takes as the ultimate sour grapes. See also: "actually, immortality would be bad".
I suspect we can't even really discuss what "paradise" would be like or how people would react to it because it would be so different from all of previous existence. The best we can do, as in this story, is "the current world minus the bad stuff" and go from there.
Second this. The main story remains relevant to this day. I remember clearly where I was when I read it for the first time in 2001. I read most of it every ten years or so.
However.
The last chapter is explicit in a way that is unnecessary and does not contribute to the story. It may be illegal in some jurisdictions, depending on how strict the laws are. There are plausible reasons to select the path it takes but the explicit detail incorporated is awful, corrosive, and is solely responsible for why I can’t recommend the story to anyone.
I should mirror the story and truncate the final chapter so I can share it with people.
It's one of my favorite short stories, but it gets 'squicky' pretty fast given that one of the first sexual encounters explored in the new system is about getting finger banged by an animated skeleton during a torture-fuck session..
To be honest I think the sex adds almost nothing to the story except detail and world embellishment--one could skip the scenes entirely and not miss much.
This was some out there singularity fiction back in the day with some really vivid imagery including being raped by a zombie, skinning the protagonist alive and dumping a mound of fire ants on them, and some incest. I re-read this occasionally and still enjoy reading it if only because it feels truthy for how various shades of humanity would deal with an immortality giving, reality altering, techno-god. The shock value of various scenes mimics the darker corners of the internet and does a good job exploring the dichotomy of behavior on and off the internet in the guise of dealing with the reality foisted upon the characters.
If you've not read it, and aren't bothered by some extreme imagery, I definitely recommend.
I suggest removing the explicit spoilers about what happens in the book. Some of the shock value comes from experiencing those scenes for the first time.
That story has two of the most wickedly evil protagonists ever.
They selfishly wiped out all of humanity (all bajillion trillion of them) because they didn't like how things were going.
I say evil, with my whole chest, because their behavior is a big hallmark of evil: "I'm absolutely right about this, and I'm going to make a decision that kills vast numbers of human beings because I know I'm right and your deaths are a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
But in an arguably righteous way, which makes it even more challenging. (Specifically, the idea that humanity was essentially meaningless and dead already due to the lack of any real challenges or goals, as well as the desire to free the hundreds of alien worlds that had been frozen by PI.)
Didn't the prime intellect already wipe out 100% of humanity during the change or whatever it was called? Unless that was what you were talking about. The second wipe was to bring a at least a few people back.
Not really, the computer's criterion to reverse the singularity was already dropping. If anything they saved the thousands of trillions more who would have been born had they not hastened the process.
And the book specifically highlights the futile fight against entropy. Eventually human population growth, already in the trillions, would become too large to manage causing the crash.
Finally, their arguments were sound. All humans would enter into despair - either consuming boundless soma or forever playing the death game.
The only two people who survive are the only ones who in five hundred years refused to surrender anything to the machine. Lawrence by his tireless job and the woman by refusing anything that wasn't real.
>"I'm absolutely right about this, and I'm going to make a decision that kills vast numbers of human beings because I know I'm right and your deaths are a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
Sounds like human nature. That's what politicians do even to this day and anyone objecting to it is called "a traitor" and/or "not a real man" (whatever that means). Humanity loves its death rituals. Go on, downvote me to oblivion.
This was verbatim Hitler in his last days in his bunker, drafting 16 and 60 year olds, as over a million soldiers of the Red Army surround Berlin, still believing his own delusions.
"... on the 5th of March Hitler calls up the class of 1929 which is 15 and 16 year olds" [0]
Good book, worth a read, but for me the final chapter ruined the book to a large extent.
Chapters 1..n-1 are about the rise of a super intelligence and dealing with human life post being subsumed into the intelligence. It’s a bit odd in places, but basically interesting, and a reasonable take on what could happen if a runaway intelligence is created.
The last chapter however goes completely off the rails. It has little to do with the rest of the book, and comes off as if it were poorly written fan fiction based on the authors fantasies. I recommend skipping it, it’s not necessary to the book and I think the story would have been stronger finishing without it.
Well, while the concept of "what happens if we get rid of samsara" is deeply interesting, the dom/sub nature of this story makes it kind of cheap. Its a sadists dream. A bored female submitting herself for the sake of excitment. Its kind of telling this got upvoted so much.
I hadn't bothered to see if he developed his thinking further! Is there a well-formatted copy anywhere? All I can find is a PDF prepared by an incompetent.
I read the book and enjoyed most of it. I don't like the last part, where the author dived into the mindset of "everything will be good without tech". I mean, tech is neutral, so it depends on how humans use it. But getting rid of all tech is an extreme.
I'd like to PAUSE research on AI before humans reach a better society, because it has the potential to impact all workers, but that's pretty much it.
Safari reader mode works fine for me on an iPhone 13 mini, but there are also innumerable epub and PDF versions; this work has been popular among AI fantasist nerds for about twenty-five years.
For quite closely similar reasons, you are not missing all that much. It's seeing a fad among a generation previously ignorant, probably because of boosterism on the part of people my age who never quite figured out this is one of the ones you outgrow.
I loved this thing when I read it. Still do. Very interesting take on the "pain Olympics" especially. Overall just the setting tone and characters seemed creative at the time, serial killer friend and all that jazz...
Having read this book in the late '90s, I've though of it at least monthly since then. The themes are truly epic, but the human behaviors described (sometimes in great detail) are horrendous.
I remember having read this forever ago, but for the life of me can't remember anything about it. The author was big on K5, which is apparently not a site anymore.
I'll be completely honest and say that I only ever remember reading the first chapter, and never actually finished this story. But the title sounds really cool.
Everyone freaks out about the incest at the end but I hate this story because the main character is given eternal life in paradise and spends the whole story trying to destroy it.
one of my favorite books, great combination of philosophy and adventure. I especially like what reminds me of the vibe I would get from other sci fi and video games from America in the 90s. I also enjoyed his short story in the same universe "A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace"
Why didn't Caroline talk to her family again? And instead hooked up with serial killers and death enthusiasts. I've read this a couple of times over the years and never got that.
Basically when she gets out of her hospital bed she seeks out Anna and not her family because she'd been her only companion. Then it turns out Anna had harmed her terribly.
Also, I think the point is well argued that things like familial bonds don't mean very much contrasted to eternity.
[+] [-] Jordan-117|9 months ago|reply
It's quite well-written, and the way the singularity unfolds is compellingly imagined. It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. The streaks of graphic violence, though hard to stomach, serve to underscore this theme in a provocative way. And Caroline is fantastic.
That last chapter, though. It's so bizarre, so fetishistic, so needlessly squicky, that it just about ruins everything that came before. IMHO, it would be better if it just ended at the cliffhanger in the penultimate chapter.
That said, I'd love to read the long-awaited sequel (The Transmigration of Prime Intellect). I've also heard rumblings of a movie deal, though one likely consigned to either development hell or a rewrite that leaves it an adaptation in name only.
[+] [-] throwanem|9 months ago|reply
The narrative is at pains to be clear neither is less consensual than the other, so that can't be the basis for objecting to one and not the other. There is also an explicit contrast drawn at length in the text between the twisted nihilism of a purposeless universe early on, and what occurs at the end: Caroline muses aloud that had she awakened next to the to-have-been-executed child rapist and murderer whose sexual fancies she had entertained within the simulation, her response would have been instantly and ferociously - and necessarily - lethal, while her daughter's controversial actions in the final chapter take place at Caroline's explicit urging - practically at her direction. So if the concern were that the moral center of the novel had failed, I would expect to see criticism on that basis, rather than a retail effort at censorship.
Likewise, though it's been years since I bothered to reread, I don't really recall the quality of the writing changing, either; it's determinedly mediocre throughout, no less in the last chapter than elsewhere.
Well, as I said, I've never understood why people so easily excuse the pedophilic rape and murder scenes early in the book, while what comes later is such a problem. It still seems inconsistent to me, but I have only my own experience of childhood rape and sexual torture at my now-dead father's hands to draw on, which here no doubt ill equips me to speak.
[+] [-] LiquidSky|9 months ago|reply
I'm not so sure about this. It's hard not to see these kinds of "actually, paradise actually wouldn't be so great" takes as the ultimate sour grapes. See also: "actually, immortality would be bad".
I suspect we can't even really discuss what "paradise" would be like or how people would react to it because it would be so different from all of previous existence. The best we can do, as in this story, is "the current world minus the bad stuff" and go from there.
[+] [-] altairprime|9 months ago|reply
However.
The last chapter is explicit in a way that is unnecessary and does not contribute to the story. It may be illegal in some jurisdictions, depending on how strict the laws are. There are plausible reasons to select the path it takes but the explicit detail incorporated is awful, corrosive, and is solely responsible for why I can’t recommend the story to anyone.
I should mirror the story and truncate the final chapter so I can share it with people.
[+] [-] MattPalmer1086|9 months ago|reply
Also waiting for the sequel - I still periodically check out localroger's site.
[+] [-] milleramp|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] hildolfr|9 months ago|reply
To be honest I think the sex adds almost nothing to the story except detail and world embellishment--one could skip the scenes entirely and not miss much.
[+] [-] okwhateverdude|9 months ago|reply
If you've not read it, and aren't bothered by some extreme imagery, I definitely recommend.
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|9 months ago|reply
But yeah. It's a hella graphic and violent story.
[+] [-] mullingitover|9 months ago|reply
They selfishly wiped out all of humanity (all bajillion trillion of them) because they didn't like how things were going.
I say evil, with my whole chest, because their behavior is a big hallmark of evil: "I'm absolutely right about this, and I'm going to make a decision that kills vast numbers of human beings because I know I'm right and your deaths are a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
[+] [-] Jordan-117|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] postalrat|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] mousethatroared|9 months ago|reply
And the book specifically highlights the futile fight against entropy. Eventually human population growth, already in the trillions, would become too large to manage causing the crash.
Finally, their arguments were sound. All humans would enter into despair - either consuming boundless soma or forever playing the death game.
The only two people who survive are the only ones who in five hundred years refused to surrender anything to the machine. Lawrence by his tireless job and the woman by refusing anything that wasn't real.
[+] [-] ZpJuUuNaQ5|9 months ago|reply
Sounds like human nature. That's what politicians do even to this day and anyone objecting to it is called "a traitor" and/or "not a real man" (whatever that means). Humanity loves its death rituals. Go on, downvote me to oblivion.
[+] [-] neuralkoi|9 months ago|reply
"... on the 5th of March Hitler calls up the class of 1929 which is 15 and 16 year olds" [0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQjAduZqGjM&t=1053s
[+] [-] danpalmer|9 months ago|reply
Chapters 1..n-1 are about the rise of a super intelligence and dealing with human life post being subsumed into the intelligence. It’s a bit odd in places, but basically interesting, and a reasonable take on what could happen if a runaway intelligence is created.
The last chapter however goes completely off the rails. It has little to do with the rest of the book, and comes off as if it were poorly written fan fiction based on the authors fantasies. I recommend skipping it, it’s not necessary to the book and I think the story would have been stronger finishing without it.
[+] [-] lynx97|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] throwanem|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] white_dragon88|9 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] randomcarbloke|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] throwanem|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] ferguess_k|9 months ago|reply
I'd like to PAUSE research on AI before humans reach a better society, because it has the potential to impact all workers, but that's pretty much it.
[+] [-] mullingitover|9 months ago|reply
In light of recent events I think it's unsafe to assume that society will be better in the future.
[+] [-] shdh|9 months ago|reply
Also recommend Accelerando by Charles Stross.
[+] [-] throwanem|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] cognomano|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] throwanem|9 months ago|reply
For quite closely similar reasons, you are not missing all that much. It's seeing a fad among a generation previously ignorant, probably because of boosterism on the part of people my age who never quite figured out this is one of the ones you outgrow.
[+] [-] unknown|9 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] benji-york|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] NoMoreNicksLeft|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] okwhateverdude|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Nursie|9 months ago|reply
I had fun there but overall I'm not sad it's gone. A weirdly utopian idea that went very sour.
[+] [-] Suppafly|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] lawrenceyan|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] UltraSane|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] mousethatroared|9 months ago|reply
The book also addresses this by pointing out that most folks are happy with their overlord, some even worship it.
The point of the book is to prove it is hell.
[+] [-] unknown|9 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] russnes|9 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] itchyjunk|9 months ago|reply
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[+] [-] mousethatroared|9 months ago|reply
Basically when she gets out of her hospital bed she seeks out Anna and not her family because she'd been her only companion. Then it turns out Anna had harmed her terribly.
Also, I think the point is well argued that things like familial bonds don't mean very much contrasted to eternity.