The main problem is that once you minimally need only one app which is only available for smartphones (banking, whatsapp, etc.) it's game-over. It's all or nothing.
For example, my bank requires that you install an app on your phone to approve any online purcharse. Game over.
I’ve thought about this, because I’ve been meaning to make the switch. The solution isn’t that hard, just keep the smartphone in your desk drawer and use it for OTPs and banking apps. It’s annoying to have two phones and two numbers, but it can be done.
Everyone says their bank or doctor, or favorite restaurant, or whatever requires an app. It is basically NEVER true. You just have to insist you do not own a compatible device and do not want one as you do not wish to accept the terms of service of Google or Apple, and/or say it is against your undisclosed religion. Works every time. Even at theme parks like Disney that insist you need an app for the map or fast pass... a manager can always override that requirement and give you the magic edge case privileges.
Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.
It's exactly that. And I also have come to the realization that I don't have to give up the convenience my smartphone offers. I only need to add friction for what causes distractions.
My bank requires it too. Except that if you call the customer service and tell them that well, you have no smartphone, then they switch you to SMS auth for that.
Get a tablet? A really big, underpowered one? You can still use Android & iOS but if it's not in your pocket, that achieves some of the same goals without sacrificing those "compulsory" apps.
It's even worse than banking there are some stores that only accept app-based payments these days (no credit card either) which should be completely illegal
Many dumbphones only support technologies (2G, 3G, etc.) that are actively being deprecated at the moment. If you are using a modern one, you still get rid of many useful things like maps, Signal and WhatsApp (the latter I've found is sometimes critical for interacting with some companies that have migrated their support there, like my ISP). Are there dumbphones that support just those two features? If not, then I don't feel like moving over to one is realistic.
Rather, just don't install whatever application is distracting you, and try simply turning notifications off. I still can't believe how many people simply don't have the willpower to do this.
On the battery life point, when you remove a lot of this cruft, you'd be surprised how much gain back as well, since you're also not staring at the thing with the screen on all the time. I'm on a 5 year old iPhone mini that I'm still regularly getting two days out of.
Another pet peeve: graphs should have axes that start at zero, or clearly point out why they are zoomed in. It's to easy to mislead readers otherwise, and great for making something sensational.
All this sounds great, but it makes little sense when the primary way of communication with others nowadays is through chatting apps (WhatsApp signal l etc) rather than SMS or phone calls. I could as well not have a phone at all or leave it home.
I use Matrix because, among other reasons, it does not require you to be a cell service subscriber, which I am not.
I asked my friends if they were seriously asking me to sign a contract with Apple and Google and Meta etc against my personal beliefs about privacy rights in order to be friends with them.
They respected it and installed matrix and many even use that now between each other because auditable end to end encryption sounds better than not.
Social graphs can pull both ways, and ethics are on your side.
Would you stop being friends with someone that went vegan?
Stick up for the rights for -anyone- to be an integrated member of society without signing data sharing agreements with a cell carrier, apple, or google.
Well, maybe that also needs to change. Try to check how much time you need to spend to solve something with chatting, vs. how much it takes with a phone call. In many cases the call is 10 times quicker, and it's a more natural interaction. Sure, chats have their uses cases too and are a great function to have in addition to calling, but the fact that people now tend to use chats for just everything IMHO needs to be reconsidered.
In some countries I'm sure you can get away with it.
But I have a friend here in Sweden who tries hard to avoid our eID monopoly "BankID", and also doesn't use credit cards, and I see how he struggles with everyday things.
I wasn't put on this earth for a short time to struggle with such mundane things.
I use a dumbphone, but it's not because I'm worried I might be having too much fun, or because I want to have any healthy relationships or pay attention to things around me. It's just that every damn business wants to install its app in my pocket, often for flimsy reasons. It seems proper to resist. For instance my local shopping mall used to have maps, on physical boards. Then it installed big touchscreens. Do they display the map, and update every day? No! The only thing they show when touched is a giant QR code to get shoppers to install the app that has the map on it (and presumably ads and tracking too).
I found the data on attention span really interesting and quite shocking.
I'm also driving a 'dumbphone' but disappointed with HMD's / Nokia's definition. It still has a fb app, yuk! and tries to do things with data connection (I had to get a sim with data disabled, not so easy these days). The few games on there trigger some kind of billing charge if you play them a few times. Oh and no developer SDK.
What is nice is the peace and silence it has brought me. I was quite unsure at first, especially having been an App developer for many years. But now I am very happy to have escaped notification hell.
I also dont want to live in a world where I have to carry a 'smart' tracking device around to be able to partake in society. When my bank insisted on an App I waved my dumb phone, and suddenly I was able to continue without.
I am hoping it will be enough to avoid being forced into a digital-euro tracking currency. But too many people take the easy option, and so I am sure I fight a losing battle. But I wonder at what point carrying a smartphone will become a legal requirement? provided by the government? or appear in public libraries for us odd-balls that value privacy. Probably they just make the dumbphones smarter, or illegal, like cash seems to be heading.
I found the data on attention span uncited and meaningless, but yes, certainly shocking. I wonder who made that chart and how the times were measured and who participated. Still, shocking, so I guess it did its job.
I've been thinking about moving to a dumb phone again for the past few months, but so far I've decided against it, for three reasons:
1. Signal/Whatsapp/Threema: biggest reason by far - while I message much less than many others, these platforms are just the way a lot of (group) communication works nowadays. It is possible to go without, but it causes so much hassle when organising things or trying to stay up to date with what's happening in a group, and would disrupt my international friendships.
2. Maps & public transport apps: are just super useful to have available, especially if you regularly travel in places you don't know (well).
3. Camera: This one I'm still a bit undecided on, but I think I would miss not having it at hand.
However, I do try to actively give my phone as little space in my life as possible. I have no social networks on it (I don't have any left by now, anyway), and no other apps that involve scrolling. And I continue to think about how I can avoid distractions from it.
I’m always tempted by the idea. I like the focus on attention span, compartmentalizing functionality (a phone is just a phone, not a notebook, camera, movie theater and encyclopedia) and less tracking by third parties. The thing is modern smartphones are just so damn useful. I find it hard to swallow that I’d have to let go of all that usefulness because it’s detrimental in some respects. Setting it up such that it works only in your favor is relatively simple (grey scale, notifications off, insert strategy here) but then keeping it that way and preventing feature creep back to square one is hard. It requires constant vigilance. It feels like the ol’ “adversarially wrestling usefulness out of a trillion dollar company”.
I know someone who doesn’t use food delivery apps, doesn’t shop online, and lives very minimally. For them, a dumbphone works just fine.
But for most of us, life is already deeply tied to apps: banking, transport, messaging, work. A lot of things aren't even optional anymore — many services expect you to use an app.
Once you go convenient, it’s really hard to go back. You don’t just lose access to entertainment — you lose infrastructure.
You can use webapps for all of those things. You do not need Android or iOS for anything. A appless browser on a laptop or linux tablet will do just fine.
While it's true that there are less opportunities to track you through leaky / malicious apps, "dumbphones" remain, well, phones, with data retention laws in almost all countries in the world (and the subsequent leaks / hacks, see the recent Salt typhoon events for a good example) plus extra vulnerabilities due to poorly-developed Operating Systems.
That depends on what threat scenario you're looking at. If your government wants to track you, they'll find a way, regardless of what phone you're using (or not).
But the privacy gains of not installing a load of third-party apps from a dozen different data-selling businesses (or using an operating system built by the mother of all data-selling businesses) are very substantial.
I‘ve got an iPhone and I use the focus mode and App Limits to great success. If I start Instagram during the day, for example, a gray screen appears and reminds me to think again. It works great against my reflexes. Also no push notifications from these apps.
Probably not for total addicts, but it got me back into focus mode for the last 6 months. I built 3 apps while working a main job.
Social media apps can have notifications turned off, so you check them when you voluntarily go and open them.
Unfortunately for email the problem still persists, tons of newsletters and updates and other not so important emails and really urgent ones get drowned in that.
What I typically do is I snooze everything for 2 hours and have a productive session without interruption.
I've never had a smart phone and all my work is in front of computers. I was a bit worried during COVID lockdowns that I'd be forced to get one, but didn't have to in the end. Occasionally it can be annoying in other ways for example:
1) you buy a piece of hardware (printer, cctv cameras etc.) that can only be set up with a phone or you have to work harder to find the web interface.
2) Banks - banks really suck.
3) Companies I work for who use VPNs where you need a SMS or authenticator, however this is usually easy to get around with a web authenticator and some companies have let me use a YubiKey instead which is actually much less hassle.
4) Car parking meters where they discriminate - I tend to avoid these ones.
5) QR code restaurant menus - hate these but usually can get around it by just asking somebody for a paper menu.
6) Phasing out of 3G causing low reception - this is annoying because there are fewer good dumbphones that have 4G modems. Also I hate Android and Android based phones which come with facebook app and social media stuff installed so I'm a bit more limited in options. However, I managed to get an Alcatel flip phone which has 4G and it's a bit buggy but reception is now good.
I'm surprised that I'm able to get by, given the enormous pressure everyone is put under to use a smart phone, but it gives me hope that it hasn't worked and you can still get by in society without them. It would be pretty terrible if everyone HAD to agree to a google or Apple EULA just to be a functioning citizen.
I have a weird relationship to notifications. They kinda stress me, but I know as long as there are no notifications all systems are working fine and I can do whatever I want.
What I would need is a dump smart watch with SIM card and proper battery lifetime and proper API so I can build from scratch and not start with android pushing everything on me.
you actually start listening to the person in front of you
As shocking as this will sound, there really is no person in front of many people. The human is desperately trying to feel part of a body of people, but the solutions we have (social media, internet media diet) is the least nutrient rich thing imaginable.
People can go to a board game night, hiking, swimming, classes, interest events, etc. The ways people met in person before the internet still all exist. There are always ways to meet other human beings unless you are medically bound to a bed or have to travel a lot, in which case find internet friends.
This always makes me chuckle because way before smartphones, cheeky teenagers would defiantly ignore anyone and everyone. Having a screen in your face is just an excuse for some people to completely ignore their environment.
Social media is horrible, and I rarely use them. However there are some truly necessary apps on my smartphone that I just can't deal without, namely an authenticator that lets me log into services, and Whatsapp which lots of businesses and some government offices use for formal support and contact.
I don't really know what to do with a dumbphone, since I don't get any phone calls or text messages any more. Everything goes through apps, email or web nowadays.
I was drawn to this idea but then I realised that the number of phone calls/texts I made/received was so low I would essentially be carrying the phone in case of emergencies. Or, more accurately, because I didn't feel comfortable being without a phone for any length of time. (Remember when people used to complain about all mobile phones, because they felt they shouldn't be contactable all the time? Kind of remarkable that the same device is now the 'disconnected' option!)
Now I carry an Android phone with an epaper display and a physical keyboard, which feels like a really good middle ground to me. It's good at the things that are important to me (reading, writing, communication), can do whatever other essentials I need it to in a scrape, and is absolute dogshit at scrolling through nonsense. The device itself feels rather less polished than the Pixel I was using before, but since I'm using it much less that doesn't seem like a problem. My old pre-smartphone phones always felt kind of janky too!
In a home emergency I pick up one of many DECT wireless phones around the house
In an emergency in public, I yell "Help!" and 20 phones come out.
In a major emergency when cell phone lines are down I can tune to the frequency of my local police and yell at them all to come to me. They never deploy any useful encryption on those things.
So far so good. Even when I totaled a vehicle. Always reliably other people around with emergency phones so I do not need one.
One thing that'd be hard to give up is the camera. I have two small kids. I captured so many beautiful moments only thanks to a camera always being around.
puttycat|9 months ago
piqufoh|9 months ago
And UK primary schools - catching up with the kids homework, messages from the teacher - requires an app and a smartphone!
It's so frustrating!
binarymax|9 months ago
lrvick|9 months ago
Source: Not had a cell phone carrier or carried a phone in 5 years and never been restricted from doing anything I did previously, as a frequently traveling tech business owner.
thibaultamartin|9 months ago
In particular, the Personal Time mode of iOS has been a game changer for me: https://ergaster.org/til/ask-smartphone-attention/
ale42|9 months ago
mattbee|9 months ago
_Algernon_|9 months ago
ekianjo|9 months ago
emberfiend|9 months ago
jangrahul|9 months ago
noufalibrahim|9 months ago
1. Make the screen monochrome. It greatly reduces the appeal of the entire system.
2. Increase the font size so that things don't look as pretty and slick. You deliberately cripple the UX.
3. As much as possible, use a browser instead of an "app" (e.g. X, Amazon etc.) and then set a limit for the time you can use your browser per day.
4. I use this as a launcher on my phone https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qqlabs.min... which prevents has "mindfulness delays" for selected apps and other features that make the usage less smooth.
A combination of these has helped me reduce my attachment to the phone. There are also lots of times when I don't take it with me.
antisol|9 months ago
hrudham|9 months ago
Rather, just don't install whatever application is distracting you, and try simply turning notifications off. I still can't believe how many people simply don't have the willpower to do this.
On the battery life point, when you remove a lot of this cruft, you'd be surprised how much gain back as well, since you're also not staring at the thing with the screen on all the time. I'm on a 5 year old iPhone mini that I'm still regularly getting two days out of.
Another pet peeve: graphs should have axes that start at zero, or clearly point out why they are zoomed in. It's to easy to mislead readers otherwise, and great for making something sensational.
yyx|9 months ago
Just don't install these apps? There are tons of useful apps that don't require your constant attention.
puttycat|9 months ago
jiehong|9 months ago
Or maybe companies could provide a lock down mode that you can’t change for 1 year at a time, like a locked bank account or something.
huksley|9 months ago
freehorse|9 months ago
lrvick|9 months ago
I asked my friends if they were seriously asking me to sign a contract with Apple and Google and Meta etc against my personal beliefs about privacy rights in order to be friends with them.
They respected it and installed matrix and many even use that now between each other because auditable end to end encryption sounds better than not.
Social graphs can pull both ways, and ethics are on your side.
Would you stop being friends with someone that went vegan?
Stick up for the rights for -anyone- to be an integrated member of society without signing data sharing agreements with a cell carrier, apple, or google.
ale42|9 months ago
antisol|9 months ago
INTPenis|9 months ago
But I have a friend here in Sweden who tries hard to avoid our eID monopoly "BankID", and also doesn't use credit cards, and I see how he struggles with everyday things.
I wasn't put on this earth for a short time to struggle with such mundane things.
lrvick|9 months ago
That is giving society value.
card_zero|9 months ago
unknown|9 months ago
[deleted]
whitehexagon|9 months ago
I'm also driving a 'dumbphone' but disappointed with HMD's / Nokia's definition. It still has a fb app, yuk! and tries to do things with data connection (I had to get a sim with data disabled, not so easy these days). The few games on there trigger some kind of billing charge if you play them a few times. Oh and no developer SDK.
What is nice is the peace and silence it has brought me. I was quite unsure at first, especially having been an App developer for many years. But now I am very happy to have escaped notification hell.
I also dont want to live in a world where I have to carry a 'smart' tracking device around to be able to partake in society. When my bank insisted on an App I waved my dumb phone, and suddenly I was able to continue without.
I am hoping it will be enough to avoid being forced into a digital-euro tracking currency. But too many people take the easy option, and so I am sure I fight a losing battle. But I wonder at what point carrying a smartphone will become a legal requirement? provided by the government? or appear in public libraries for us odd-balls that value privacy. Probably they just make the dumbphones smarter, or illegal, like cash seems to be heading.
card_zero|9 months ago
veddox|9 months ago
1. Signal/Whatsapp/Threema: biggest reason by far - while I message much less than many others, these platforms are just the way a lot of (group) communication works nowadays. It is possible to go without, but it causes so much hassle when organising things or trying to stay up to date with what's happening in a group, and would disrupt my international friendships.
2. Maps & public transport apps: are just super useful to have available, especially if you regularly travel in places you don't know (well).
3. Camera: This one I'm still a bit undecided on, but I think I would miss not having it at hand.
However, I do try to actively give my phone as little space in my life as possible. I have no social networks on it (I don't have any left by now, anyway), and no other apps that involve scrolling. And I continue to think about how I can avoid distractions from it.
nehal3m|9 months ago
debuggerson|9 months ago
But for most of us, life is already deeply tied to apps: banking, transport, messaging, work. A lot of things aren't even optional anymore — many services expect you to use an app.
Once you go convenient, it’s really hard to go back. You don’t just lose access to entertainment — you lose infrastructure.
lrvick|9 months ago
redcannon218|9 months ago
While it's true that there are less opportunities to track you through leaky / malicious apps, "dumbphones" remain, well, phones, with data retention laws in almost all countries in the world (and the subsequent leaks / hacks, see the recent Salt typhoon events for a good example) plus extra vulnerabilities due to poorly-developed Operating Systems.
veddox|9 months ago
But the privacy gains of not installing a load of third-party apps from a dozen different data-selling businesses (or using an operating system built by the mother of all data-selling businesses) are very substantial.
jfritsch1984|9 months ago
Probably not for total addicts, but it got me back into focus mode for the last 6 months. I built 3 apps while working a main job.
huksley|9 months ago
Unfortunately for email the problem still persists, tons of newsletters and updates and other not so important emails and really urgent ones get drowned in that.
What I typically do is I snooze everything for 2 hours and have a productive session without interruption.
crypt1d|9 months ago
Fredkin|9 months ago
1) you buy a piece of hardware (printer, cctv cameras etc.) that can only be set up with a phone or you have to work harder to find the web interface.
2) Banks - banks really suck.
3) Companies I work for who use VPNs where you need a SMS or authenticator, however this is usually easy to get around with a web authenticator and some companies have let me use a YubiKey instead which is actually much less hassle.
4) Car parking meters where they discriminate - I tend to avoid these ones.
5) QR code restaurant menus - hate these but usually can get around it by just asking somebody for a paper menu.
6) Phasing out of 3G causing low reception - this is annoying because there are fewer good dumbphones that have 4G modems. Also I hate Android and Android based phones which come with facebook app and social media stuff installed so I'm a bit more limited in options. However, I managed to get an Alcatel flip phone which has 4G and it's a bit buggy but reception is now good.
I'm surprised that I'm able to get by, given the enormous pressure everyone is put under to use a smart phone, but it gives me hope that it hasn't worked and you can still get by in society without them. It would be pretty terrible if everyone HAD to agree to a google or Apple EULA just to be a functioning citizen.
ale42|9 months ago
TruffleLabs|9 months ago
I do want to point out =>
"The attention span myth - No, the average human attention span is not 1 second less than that of the goldfish."
https://uxpsychology.substack.com/p/the-attention-span-myth
herbst|9 months ago
What I would need is a dump smart watch with SIM card and proper battery lifetime and proper API so I can build from scratch and not start with android pushing everything on me.
ivape|9 months ago
As shocking as this will sound, there really is no person in front of many people. The human is desperately trying to feel part of a body of people, but the solutions we have (social media, internet media diet) is the least nutrient rich thing imaginable.
lrvick|9 months ago
People you follow are not friends.
magic_hamster|9 months ago
magic_hamster|9 months ago
kennu|9 months ago
WindyMiller|9 months ago
Now I carry an Android phone with an epaper display and a physical keyboard, which feels like a really good middle ground to me. It's good at the things that are important to me (reading, writing, communication), can do whatever other essentials I need it to in a scrape, and is absolute dogshit at scrolling through nonsense. The device itself feels rather less polished than the Pixel I was using before, but since I'm using it much less that doesn't seem like a problem. My old pre-smartphone phones always felt kind of janky too!
lrvick|9 months ago
In an emergency in public, I yell "Help!" and 20 phones come out.
In a major emergency when cell phone lines are down I can tune to the frequency of my local police and yell at them all to come to me. They never deploy any useful encryption on those things.
So far so good. Even when I totaled a vehicle. Always reliably other people around with emergency phones so I do not need one.
jhrmnn|9 months ago
lrvick|9 months ago
yyx|9 months ago
brador|9 months ago
ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7|9 months ago
then on the phone, you can use other apps to help modify your behavior, firefox with leechblock, etc.
Milpotel|9 months ago
But the battery of my cheap debloated Xiaomi lasts 5 days...