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dedicate | 8 months ago

Okay, the AI stuff is cool, but that "Containerization framework" mention is kinda huge, right? I mean, native Linux container support on Mac could be a game-changer for my whole workflow, maybe even making Docker less of a headache.

discuss

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12_throw_away|8 months ago

FWIW, here are the repos for the CLI tool [1] and backend [2]. Looks like it is indeed VM-based container support (as opposed to WSLv1-style syscall translation or whatever):

  Containerization provides APIs to:
  [...]
  - Create an optimized Linux kernel for fast boot times.
  - Spawn lightweight virtual machines.
  - Manage the runtime environment of virtual machines.
[1] https://github.com/apple/container [2] https://github.com/apple/containerization

torginus|8 months ago

I'm kinda ignorant about the current state of Linux VMs, but my biggest gripe with VMs is that OS kernels kind of assume they have access to all the RAM the hardware has - unlike the reserve/commit scheme processes use for memory.

Is there a VM technology that can make Linux aware that it's running in a VM, and be able to hand back the memory it uses to the host OS?

Or maybe could Apple patch the kernel to do exactly this?

Running Docker in a VM always has been quite painful on Mac due to the excess amount of memory it uses, and Macs not really having a lot of RAM.

geraneum|8 months ago

I just noticed the addition of container cask when I ran b”brew update”.

I chased the package’s source and indeed it’s pointing to this repo.

You can install and use it now on the latest macOS (not 26). I just ran “container run nginx” and it worked alright it seems. Haven’t looked deeper yet.

cogman10|8 months ago

WSLv1 never supported a native docker (AFAIK, perhaps I'm wrong?)

That said, I'd think apple would actually be much better positioned to try the WSL1 approach. I'd assume apple OS is a lot closer to linux than windows is.

paxys|8 months ago

It's impossible to have "native" support for Linux containers on macOS, since the technology inherently relies on Linux kernel features. So I'm guessing this is Apple rolling out their own Linux virtualization layer (same as WSL). Probably still an improvement over the current mess, but if they just support LXC and not Docker then most devs will still need to install Docker Desktop like they do today.

tensor|8 months ago

Apple has had a native hypervisor for some time now. This is probably a baked in clone of something like https://mac.getutm.app/ which provides the stuff on top of the hypervisor.

jzelinskie|8 months ago

The screenshot in TFA pretty clearly shows docker-like workflows pulling images, showing tags and digests and running what looks to be the official Docker library version of Postgres.

bandoti|8 months ago

What about macOS being derived from BSD? Isn’t that where containers came from: BSD jails?

I know the container ecosystem largely targets Linux just curious what people’s thoughts are on that.

enceladus06|8 months ago

WSL throughput is not enough for file intensive operations. It is much easier and straightforward to just delete windows and use Linux.

msgodel|8 months ago

If they implemented the Linux syscall interface in their kernel they absolutely could.

sequence7|8 months ago

WSL doesn't have a virtualization layer, WSL1 did have but it wasn't a feasible approach so WSL2 is basically running VMs with the Hyper-V hypervisor.

Apple looks like it's skipped the failed WSL1 and gone straight for the more successful WSL2 approach.

DidYaWipe|8 months ago

I installed Orbstack without Docker Desktop.

pjmlp|8 months ago

WSL 1.0, given that WSL 2.0 is regular Linux VM running on HYPER-V.

LoganDark|8 months ago

I wonder if User-Mode Linux could be ported to macOS...

thde|8 months ago

> Meet Containerization, an open source project written in Swift to create and run Linux containers on your Mac. Learn how Containerization approaches Linux containers securely and privately. Discover how the open-sourced Container CLI tool utilizes the Containerization package to provide simple, yet powerful functionality to build, run, and deploy Linux Containers on Mac.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2025/346/

shellac|8 months ago

> Containerization executes each Linux container inside of its own lightweight virtual machine.

That’s an interesting difference from other Mac container systems. Also (more obvious) use Rosetta 2.

WhyNotHugo|8 months ago

The ground keeps shrinking for Docker Inc.

They sold Docker Desktop for Mac, but that might start being less relevant and licenses start to drop.

On Linux there’s just the cli, which they can’t afford to close since people will just move away.

Docker Hub likely can’t compete with the registries built into every other cloud provider.

aequitas|8 months ago

There is already a paid alternative, Orbstack, for macOS which puts Docker for Mac to shame in terms of usability, features and performance. And then there are open alternatives like Colima.

pjmlp|8 months ago

That is why they are now into the reinventing application servers with WebAssembly kind of vibe.

amelius|8 months ago

They got Sherlocked.

mmcnl|8 months ago

It's cool but also not as revolutionary as you make it sound. You can already install Podman, Orbstack or Colima right? Not sure which open-source framework they are using, but to me it seems like an OS-level integration of one of these tools. That's definitely a big win and will make things easier for developers, but I'm not sure if it's a gamechanger.

rnubel|8 months ago

All those tools use a Linux VM (whether managed by Qemu or VZ) to run the actual containers, though, which comes with significant overhead. Native support for running containers -- with no need for a VM -- would be huge.

selkin|8 months ago

It looks like nothing here is new: we have all the building blocks already. What Apple done is packaged it all nicely, which is nothing to discount: there's a reason people buy managed services over just raw metal for hosting their services, and having a batteries included development environment is worth a premium over the need to assemble it on your own.

mrbonner|8 months ago

The containerization experience on macOS has historically been underwhelming in terms of performance. Using Docker or Podman on a Mac often feels sluggish and unnecessarily complex compared to native Linux environments. Recently, I experimented with Microsandbox, which was shared here a few weeks ago, and found its performance to be comparable to that of native containers on Linux. This leads me to hope that Apple will soon elevate the developer experience by integrating robust containerization support directly into macOS, eliminating the need for third-party downloads.

nottorp|8 months ago

Docker at least runs a linux vm that runs all those containers. Which is a lot of needless overhead.

The equivalent of Electron for containers :)

rcarmo|8 months ago

Use Colima.

marviel|8 months ago

yeah -- I saw it's built on "open source foundations", do you know what project this is?

underdeserver|8 months ago

The CLI sure looks a lot like Docker.

shellac|8 months ago

If I had to guess, colima? But there are a number of open source projects using Apple's virtualisation technologies to run a linux VM to host docker-type containers.

Once you have an engine podman might be the best choice to manage containers, or docker.

cmiles74|8 months ago

Being able to drop Docker Desktop would be great. We're using Podman on MacOS now in a couple places, it's pretty good but it is another tool. Having the same tool across MacOS and Linux would be nice.

acedTrex|8 months ago

Colima is my guess, only thing that makes sense here if they are doing a qemu vm type of thing

WD-42|8 months ago

Should be easy enough, look for the one with upstream contributions from Apple.

Oh, wait.

wmf|8 months ago

They Sherlocked OrbStack.

12_throw_away|8 months ago

Well, Orbstack isn't really anything special in terms of its features, it's the implementation that's so much better than all the other ways of spinning up VMs to run containers on macos. TBH, I'm not 100% sure 2025 Apple is capable anymore of delivering a more technically impressive product than orbstack ...

ale|8 months ago

That's a good thing though right?

pjmlp|8 months ago

Microsoft did it first to Virtual Box / VMWare Workstation thought.

That is what I have been using since 2010, until WSL came to be, it has been ages since I ever dual booted.

rcarmo|8 months ago

I’ve been using Colima for a long while with zero issues, and that leverages the older virtualization framework.

dang|8 months ago

Ok, I've squeezed containerization into the title above. It's unsatisfactory, since multiple announced-things are also being discussed in this thread, but "Apple's kitchen-sink announcement from WWDC this year" wouldn't be great either, and "Apple supercharges its tools and technologies for developers to foster creativity, innovation, and design" is right out.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

bearjaws|8 months ago

Title makes sense to me.

It seems like a big step in the right direction to me. It's hard to tell if its 100% compatible with Docker or not, but the commands shown are identical (other than swapping docker for container).

Even if its not 100% compatible this is huge news.

nodja|8 months ago

> Apple Announces Foundation Models and Containerization frameworks, etc.

This sounds like apple announced 2 things, AI models and container related stuff I'd change it to something like:

> Apple Announces Foundation Models, Containerization frameworks, more tools

LoganDark|8 months ago

Small nitpick but "Announces" being capitalized looks a bit weird to me.