I used to feel similar when I’d write Python. It was a beautiful language in its primordial days, and you’d feel like a hipster renegade if you could sneak it into an enterprise environment where C#, Java, and C++ were the norms. Even just whipping up a tiny script that didn’t require compilation and could do some stuff felt like magic.
These days I mostly write Go for work, and as I’ve gotten older, I no longer find the act of programming profound. I take more joy in hiking and kayaking than programming, since LLMs have commoditized something that used to be gatekept to the teeth.
I’m glad that AI tools have trivialized many parts of the act and let people focus on the result rather than the process. Kind of like how good linters completely killed off the bike shedding around code aesthetics.
That said, nowadays I appreciate tools that last. Languages that take backward compatibility seriously and don’t break user code on a whim. Languages that don’t support ten ways of doing the same thing. Languages that don’t require any external dependency managers or build tools. Languages that are fast, have less syntactic noise, and let me do my stuff without much fuss. So to my eyes, those useful languages are the most beautiful.
So Python, with its bolted-on type system, no built-in dependency manager (uv doesn’t count; there will be more unless they put it in the standard toolchain), and a terrible type checker, doesn’t really appeal to me anymore.
I’m sure anyone could write a beautiful ode to any language of their choice and make something profound out of it. If I could, I’d probably write an ode to Go.
> since LLMs have commoditized something that used to be gatekept to the teeth.
I don't see any LLM commoditization and I can't apprehend your point of view that programming was guarded by gatekeepers. The past 20 years have been an explosion of systems, open code, and languages. Where do you get this point of view from?
Today, one of the remaining appeals of Lisps (e.g., CL, Scheme) is that (aside perhaps from Clojure) they're not very employable, and so the communities and ecosystems are more old-school hardcore in sensibility.
In Python, I have to really get on a roll on a project in it, to where I can ignore most of the unfortunate aspects, that are apparent when having to Web search through writing and code that seems 99.99% by people who wouldn't be doing this if it didn't pay money. Many are skilled and professional and conscientious, despite the circumstances of it being a job, but that's not the norm.
In JavaScript universe, jeebus, you can't read about even the smallest things, without it cavalierly telling you to install a supply chain disaster from NPM.
In Rust, some of their linguistic thinking is appealing. They still have the positive-employability problem, :) but the difficulty has a gatekeeping effect that isn't entirely unwelcome (if you only want a job, just learn JavaScript or Python). I can foresee flexing some of my systems programming skills like I haven't been able to as much in Python, JavaScript, or Scheme, to build efficient and trustworthy software. But then, for example, the other day, I thought "I'll try this UI package, which is a wrapper around a platform Web rendering widget, since maybe they found a sweet spot..." But somehow, "hello, world" requires compiling 503 Rust crates, just for the wrapper alone, not counting the code for the non-Rust platform Web widget that the they wrap. We already know that the platform widget is going to be buggy with memory errors and design flaws, and we're going to be running bloated Web stack atop that widget, and with callouts to Rust code, and how many people in the world can even reason about debugging that (or auditing it!), just to display simple GUI widgets in a fashionable way.
> Today, one of the remaining appeals of Lisps (e.g., CL, Scheme) is that (aside perhaps from Clojure) they're not very employable, and so the communities and ecosystems are more old-school hardcore in sensibility.
One of the reasons why I wrote 42links in Lisp is that it’s less likely to end up in a ChatGPT reply without any license hints.
Ironically, this author gets the relationship between lisp and writing totally wrong. Lisp may be much more artistic, but programming in Java, for instance, is much more akin to writing than programming in lisp is. Written languages have well established vocabulary and grammar, that cannot be changed or redefined by the writer. The author is completely correct that lisp is more of a "programming medium" than a "programming language", since the language itself can be molded and changed by the programmer in very self-expressive ways. However, he doesn't follow through with this observation to the obvious conclusion that this feature of lisp, as a medium, makes it fundamentally different from human language.
I don’t think that’s the right take. Poetry manipulates common grammatical rules and still communicates meaning from the writer to the reader, perhaps in an even deeper way because of that manipulation. Of course in Java and many other programming languages, grammatical errors will simply not compile. LISP is one of those few languages where grammar can change from program to program, much like with poetry
English Language is the best general purpose conveyance of arbitrary ideas, and it has syntax rules just like programming languages. It's "best" by the metric of being "easiest for humans to understand". That's what I mean by best, in this case.
I think one can argue that LISP is the "best" computer programming language based on a set of metrics that revolve around simplicity and composability. There's no simpler language. There simply cannot be, because there's nothing "extra" in LISP. It's the most compact (while still being human readable) way to define and/or call functions.
You can also argue that LISP is closer to English than any other programming language, because in English we use parenthesis's and lists to enumerate things related to what has been said. For example "(add, 1, 2)" is axiomatically the best way to express adding two numbers, in a way that scales to arbitrary numbers of operations. It's superior to "(1+2)" because the plus sign is a single character (cannot scale), and therefore there are a limited number of them, and using symbols means humans have to memorize them rather than simply reading their name. But "add" is a name one can read. Also "add one and two" is a valid English sentence, so all LISP programs are similarly valid English language expressions, where the parenthesis is merely used for grouping language "clauses".
If the world were ever to be forced to agree on one single high level programming language, it would necessarily need to be LISP for about 10 other huge reasons I could name: Everything from ease of writing parsers, to compression of code, simplicity, ease for learning, even as a young child, etc.
Written languages are not static. You can absolute introduce your own vocabulary and grammar. Yes, you might become harder to understand for someone unfamiliar with it but so can get a Lisp program when macros are over used. It is an art after all.
This is especially insane when talking about English. What English? American English? What group? African-American English that introduces whole new grammatical concepts? Indian English? Even two people grown an raised in London can have wildly different ways of speaking depending on their class backgrounds and many other factors. There isn't one English.
And it is ever evolving. Shakespeare English is vastly different than 21st century English. In fact Shakespeare himself invented roughly 1.7k words that we still use today.
Have you seen LOOP[1]? That example barely scratches the surface too.
As for being able to make words mean different things and break grammatical strictures; that’s called poetry when we do it in English. And yes there is bad poetry, but some is superlative.
Thank you for sharing. It's a shame that while reading this I get the feeling of prose I associate with fiction. Where there's no reason for that to be the case.
When on Gabriel's site, take the opportunity also read about Cadillac, and Foundation for a C++ Environment.
How it became XEmacs, what the Cadillac protocols remind you of on a famous editor currently, the infrastructure for a image like development environment for C++, all around early 1990's.
It's a bit sad to see that the book he's referring to at the end is a book released in 2003, to which this is the foreword.
Lisp is an incredible experience to write and experiment in, unlike any other language I've ever worked in.
Still, I believe there are many people out in the field that are mostly about "just delivering the spec" or about making money; pragmatists who care not too much about the art behind the software, and I suspect that will always remain the case.
Craftmanship marrying art and mastery is a niche, but that doesn't mean it's not thriving in spaces for enthusiasts.
> Lisp is an incredible experience to write and experiment in, unlike any other language I've ever worked in.
I think that the experienced of Smalltalk is very similar in some ways, despite the languages themselves being very different. At the end of the day I prefer Lisp, in large part because I feel that it interoperates with the rest of my system better (I could be wrong — no doubt expert Smalltalkers have figure out solutions to all the issues which annoyed me once upon a time).
They’re both roads not taken. It’s sad, and I think that our industry would be in a much better position had we not wasted decades in the C trap. But history unfolded as it did. Maybe it had to.
The author spends a lot time describing programming as a solitary activity (discovery, analysis) using like metaphors (poets, explorers, etc) and draws his conclusions thus, emphasizing the malleability of LISPs and Smalltalk as ideal for this task.
I think the author examining the fads of agile or XP would draw quite opposite conclusions if they observed programming as a social activity, building a shared knowledge and understanding that is constantly refined before it is "abandoned" as a piece of software.
I've been realizing lately that we're already to the point where LLMs can basically take written English language and create the computer code it's describing. I think in the future perhaps most (and eventually all) software can be written basically the way we write method/function documentation today. You describe a function, give it a name, describe it's inputs/output arguments. And with enough specificity there will be a [perfect] function that can be written (multiple of course actually) which accomplishes what's described. So we can create entire applications this way. I guess this is already being called no-code or low-code systems, but I think perhaps as a universal language where instructions MUST be given, perhaps LISP is indeed the best because anyone can learn the syntax in basically a couple of minutes.
I can't see how, in 100 years (or maybe even just 50) humans will still need more than ONE computer programming language. Or at the most two. We might always need C++ to exist for low level stuff, but we only need ONE higher level language.
Having developed in a wide variety of different languages in my free time, I really think the idea that languages like lisp and smalltalk give a sense of creative freedom is pretty overblown.
I have realised recently that there are much more concrete barriers to creative expression in coding: many of us are carrying around iPhones that you cannot write applications for, even for yourself, without paying a $100 a year fee. All the ways the language makes you feel means little compared to whether or not you can actually write code for your computer. The person who makes the computer can decide if you are allowed to be creative with it. And, as a society, we have decided (or perhaps been implicitly brainwashed?) to not want to be creative with our computers. In such a situation, the distinction between Java's OOP and Lisp's "computational ideas and expression" means very little.
Stallman was right and that only becomes more clear to me with each day that passes. But there is a big difference between having the legal/technical ability to do something and that being at all practical. I'm becoming increasingly more concerned about the practical aspect rather than the technical.
Take the issue of freedom of speech. While it may be legally protected to various degrees, with the US having one of the strongest protections, is it practical when all communication happens on private platforms with opaque filtering ("moderation")?
I see the same thing in programming freedom. Android might technically be "open source" but it is no more practical to actually hack the software on your Android phone than an Apple phone. Similarly, PCs might be available that are under the complete control of the owners, but you need to be an expert programmer to realise this control.
Lisp is simply a more practical language to begin hacking. Emacs is probably the best example. Everything is there to make it easier to hack. It's not just technically free, it's practically free too.
Both Stallman and Rossman are right (in that regard) as far as I am concerned.
Now I do not mean to be rude, but I want to really drive a point home: what you are saying sounds to me like "Advances in medicine are not so relevant, because medicine is too expensive, and people in Africa cannot pay for it anyway".
You are mixing 2 totally independent things. That Apple exist, with all the bad things (and also the good) has nothing to do with how a programming language is designed. And all things being equal, people can feel more freedom to express their programs in one or other language, independent of what platforms are avaialble to later deploy them.
Note that while today Apple exists, there is Linux, which you can really do anything you want with, with total freedom (except of some little places with blobs if you are purist) but again, nothing to do with programming languages.
This is a primary reason why I do not use Apple products. I use Windows and Linux on my laptops, and even have a ChromeBook. I use a SteamDeck as a console. I use Android phones, tablets and eReaders. I use Android based TVs and streamers. Even if I never code a line for them, I like that I could.
There is a difference. I write a Lisp program, and it runs everywhere Emacs does, including my Android device. I wouldn't do that with Java, as thaw would be extremely impractical. (I might be biased: I probably wouldn't be programming at all if Lisp didn't exist.)
Lisp is the №1 enabler of Stallman's “Freedom 1”. Smalltalk might be close but I can't really say, and it doesn't look like I can install Pharo on my Android device. Nothing else even comes close.
lisp's power came from its default being openness. not just macros or homoiconicity, but how the system assumed you would reshape it. that expectation isn't present in modern languages. today, customisation is an advanced feature, not the baseline. we talk about lisp as a language, but it behaved more like a writable substrate. the cultural part wasn't romanticism it was just people using what was there without artificial walls
I think that Python has inherited a lot (but unfortunately not all) of the artistic qualities of Lisp. So in a sense the artistic dynamic approach of Lisp won given the popularity of Python.
I find Python a pretty rigid and boring language. There are no macros, the syntax is infuriating, it is mostly OO these days.
You can do introspection and access the variables at runtime (using a horrible syntax), but that's it.
I don't see much artistic aspirations in the language or in its creators. Ruby already has a much better metaprogramming story and the code looks more elegant.
[+] [-] rednafi|9 months ago|reply
These days I mostly write Go for work, and as I’ve gotten older, I no longer find the act of programming profound. I take more joy in hiking and kayaking than programming, since LLMs have commoditized something that used to be gatekept to the teeth.
I’m glad that AI tools have trivialized many parts of the act and let people focus on the result rather than the process. Kind of like how good linters completely killed off the bike shedding around code aesthetics.
That said, nowadays I appreciate tools that last. Languages that take backward compatibility seriously and don’t break user code on a whim. Languages that don’t support ten ways of doing the same thing. Languages that don’t require any external dependency managers or build tools. Languages that are fast, have less syntactic noise, and let me do my stuff without much fuss. So to my eyes, those useful languages are the most beautiful.
So Python, with its bolted-on type system, no built-in dependency manager (uv doesn’t count; there will be more unless they put it in the standard toolchain), and a terrible type checker, doesn’t really appeal to me anymore.
I’m sure anyone could write a beautiful ode to any language of their choice and make something profound out of it. If I could, I’d probably write an ode to Go.
[+] [-] timewizard|9 months ago|reply
I don't see any LLM commoditization and I can't apprehend your point of view that programming was guarded by gatekeepers. The past 20 years have been an explosion of systems, open code, and languages. Where do you get this point of view from?
[+] [-] neilv|9 months ago|reply
In Python, I have to really get on a roll on a project in it, to where I can ignore most of the unfortunate aspects, that are apparent when having to Web search through writing and code that seems 99.99% by people who wouldn't be doing this if it didn't pay money. Many are skilled and professional and conscientious, despite the circumstances of it being a job, but that's not the norm.
In JavaScript universe, jeebus, you can't read about even the smallest things, without it cavalierly telling you to install a supply chain disaster from NPM.
In Rust, some of their linguistic thinking is appealing. They still have the positive-employability problem, :) but the difficulty has a gatekeeping effect that isn't entirely unwelcome (if you only want a job, just learn JavaScript or Python). I can foresee flexing some of my systems programming skills like I haven't been able to as much in Python, JavaScript, or Scheme, to build efficient and trustworthy software. But then, for example, the other day, I thought "I'll try this UI package, which is a wrapper around a platform Web rendering widget, since maybe they found a sweet spot..." But somehow, "hello, world" requires compiling 503 Rust crates, just for the wrapper alone, not counting the code for the non-Rust platform Web widget that the they wrap. We already know that the platform widget is going to be buggy with memory errors and design flaws, and we're going to be running bloated Web stack atop that widget, and with callouts to Rust code, and how many people in the world can even reason about debugging that (or auditing it!), just to display simple GUI widgets in a fashionable way.
[+] [-] rhabarba|8 months ago|reply
One of the reasons why I wrote 42links in Lisp is that it’s less likely to end up in a ChatGPT reply without any license hints.
[+] [-] mightyham|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] jbmilgrom|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] quantadev|9 months ago|reply
I think one can argue that LISP is the "best" computer programming language based on a set of metrics that revolve around simplicity and composability. There's no simpler language. There simply cannot be, because there's nothing "extra" in LISP. It's the most compact (while still being human readable) way to define and/or call functions.
You can also argue that LISP is closer to English than any other programming language, because in English we use parenthesis's and lists to enumerate things related to what has been said. For example "(add, 1, 2)" is axiomatically the best way to express adding two numbers, in a way that scales to arbitrary numbers of operations. It's superior to "(1+2)" because the plus sign is a single character (cannot scale), and therefore there are a limited number of them, and using symbols means humans have to memorize them rather than simply reading their name. But "add" is a name one can read. Also "add one and two" is a valid English sentence, so all LISP programs are similarly valid English language expressions, where the parenthesis is merely used for grouping language "clauses".
If the world were ever to be forced to agree on one single high level programming language, it would necessarily need to be LISP for about 10 other huge reasons I could name: Everything from ease of writing parsers, to compression of code, simplicity, ease for learning, even as a young child, etc.
[+] [-] cardanome|9 months ago|reply
This is especially insane when talking about English. What English? American English? What group? African-American English that introduces whole new grammatical concepts? Indian English? Even two people grown an raised in London can have wildly different ways of speaking depending on their class backgrounds and many other factors. There isn't one English.
And it is ever evolving. Shakespeare English is vastly different than 21st century English. In fact Shakespeare himself invented roughly 1.7k words that we still use today.
[+] [-] User23|8 months ago|reply
As for being able to make words mean different things and break grammatical strictures; that’s called poetry when we do it in English. And yes there is bad poetry, but some is superlative.
[1] https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/LWRM/html/lwref...
[+] [-] monkeyelite|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] timewizard|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] noelwelsh|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Douger|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] pjmlp|9 months ago|reply
How it became XEmacs, what the Cadillac protocols remind you of on a famous editor currently, the infrastructure for a image like development environment for C++, all around early 1990's.
https://dreamsongs.com/Cadillac.html
[+] [-] azeirah|9 months ago|reply
It's a bit sad to see that the book he's referring to at the end is a book released in 2003, to which this is the foreword.
Lisp is an incredible experience to write and experiment in, unlike any other language I've ever worked in.
Still, I believe there are many people out in the field that are mostly about "just delivering the spec" or about making money; pragmatists who care not too much about the art behind the software, and I suspect that will always remain the case.
Craftmanship marrying art and mastery is a niche, but that doesn't mean it's not thriving in spaces for enthusiasts.
[+] [-] eadmund|8 months ago|reply
I think that the experienced of Smalltalk is very similar in some ways, despite the languages themselves being very different. At the end of the day I prefer Lisp, in large part because I feel that it interoperates with the rest of my system better (I could be wrong — no doubt expert Smalltalkers have figure out solutions to all the issues which annoyed me once upon a time).
They’re both roads not taken. It’s sad, and I think that our industry would be in a much better position had we not wasted decades in the C trap. But history unfolded as it did. Maybe it had to.
[+] [-] TacticalCoder|9 months ago|reply
Seconded by an enthusiast posting on a site written in Arc then rewritten in SBCL ; )
[+] [-] chris_armstrong|9 months ago|reply
I think the author examining the fads of agile or XP would draw quite opposite conclusions if they observed programming as a social activity, building a shared knowledge and understanding that is constantly refined before it is "abandoned" as a piece of software.
[+] [-] quantadev|9 months ago|reply
I can't see how, in 100 years (or maybe even just 50) humans will still need more than ONE computer programming language. Or at the most two. We might always need C++ to exist for low level stuff, but we only need ONE higher level language.
[+] [-] lproven|8 months ago|reply
Not really.
I know people think they are... but then some people think water can magically be imbued with healing powers.
Here's how that works:
https://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/
LLMs are 99% hype. They can't think, or reason, or count... or program.
[+] [-] bowsamic|9 months ago|reply
I have realised recently that there are much more concrete barriers to creative expression in coding: many of us are carrying around iPhones that you cannot write applications for, even for yourself, without paying a $100 a year fee. All the ways the language makes you feel means little compared to whether or not you can actually write code for your computer. The person who makes the computer can decide if you are allowed to be creative with it. And, as a society, we have decided (or perhaps been implicitly brainwashed?) to not want to be creative with our computers. In such a situation, the distinction between Java's OOP and Lisp's "computational ideas and expression" means very little.
A bit of a "Stallman was right" moment for me.
[+] [-] globular-toast|9 months ago|reply
Take the issue of freedom of speech. While it may be legally protected to various degrees, with the US having one of the strongest protections, is it practical when all communication happens on private platforms with opaque filtering ("moderation")?
I see the same thing in programming freedom. Android might technically be "open source" but it is no more practical to actually hack the software on your Android phone than an Apple phone. Similarly, PCs might be available that are under the complete control of the owners, but you need to be an expert programmer to realise this control.
Lisp is simply a more practical language to begin hacking. Emacs is probably the best example. Everything is there to make it easier to hack. It's not just technically free, it's practically free too.
[+] [-] f1shy|9 months ago|reply
Now I do not mean to be rude, but I want to really drive a point home: what you are saying sounds to me like "Advances in medicine are not so relevant, because medicine is too expensive, and people in Africa cannot pay for it anyway".
You are mixing 2 totally independent things. That Apple exist, with all the bad things (and also the good) has nothing to do with how a programming language is designed. And all things being equal, people can feel more freedom to express their programs in one or other language, independent of what platforms are avaialble to later deploy them.
Note that while today Apple exists, there is Linux, which you can really do anything you want with, with total freedom (except of some little places with blobs if you are purist) but again, nothing to do with programming languages.
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|9 months ago|reply
I also don’t like the hurdles of writing private Apple ecosystem apps. Apple may fix this via Playgrounds, not sure though.
I feel captured by Apple’s ecosystem, and that is not a comfortable feeling. Also, Richard is right, we just don’t listen.
[+] [-] SomeHacker44|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] dunefox|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] akater|8 months ago|reply
Lisp is the №1 enabler of Stallman's “Freedom 1”. Smalltalk might be close but I can't really say, and it doesn't look like I can install Pharo on my Android device. Nothing else even comes close.
[+] [-] timewizard|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] b0a04gl|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] grugagag|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] auggierose|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] john61|9 months ago|reply
[+] [-] bgwalter|9 months ago|reply
You can do introspection and access the variables at runtime (using a horrible syntax), but that's it.
I don't see much artistic aspirations in the language or in its creators. Ruby already has a much better metaprogramming story and the code looks more elegant.
[+] [-] mejutoco|8 months ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|9 months ago|reply
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