[noworriesnate]

But software developers often struggle to use sql and prefer using ORMs or analytical APIs like polars; the people who excel at sql are typically not programmers, they’re data engineers, DBAs, analysts, etc.

Maybe a similar bifurcation will arise where there are vibe coders who use LLMs to write everything, and there are real engineers who avoid LLMs.

Maybe we’re seeing the beginning of that with the whole bifurcation of programmers into two camps: heavy AI users and AI skeptics.

[ruszki]

What you can achieve with the standard SQL is taught on universities. The whole package. I’ve never met a developer, who struggled with that. When you use ORMs you need to follow SQL’s logic anyway. People use ORMs to avoid painful data conversions. Not to avoid the logic. Data engineers, DBAs, analysts, etc excel in specific databases, not in “SQL”.

[FranzFerdiNaN]

Ive worked in BI and data engineering my whole career and I’ve met plenty of programmers who struggled immensely with SQL once it went further than select and group by. And don’t get me started about their database design skills. It’s way too often a disaster hidden behind “it works for the software so good enough”.

Im more surprised by software engineers who do know these things than by the ones who don’t.

[adalacelove]

I'm a developer and: - I hate ORMs, they are the source for a lot of obscure errors behind layers and layers of abstractions. - I prefer analytical APIs for technical reasons, not just the language.

Reasons: - I can compose queries, which in turn makes them easier to decompose - It's easier to spot errors - I avoid parsing SQL strings - It's easier to interact with the rest of the code, both functions and objects

If I need to make just a query I gladly write SQL

[eru]

Well, the problem in ORM is the O. Objection-orientation is just a worse way to organise your data and logic than relational algebra.

It's just a shame that many languages don't support relational algebra well.

We had relations as a datatype and all the relevant operations over them (like join) in a project I was working on. It was great! Very useful for expressing business logic.

[idiotsecant]

'real' engineers can use SQL just fine. This is a strange position to take.

[collingreen]

No true Scotsman would struggle with sql

[atomicnumber3]

Aren't data engineers programmers? That is to say, a data engineer is-a software engineer?

I share your sentiment though - I'm a data engineer (8 years) turned product engineer (3 years) and it astounds me how little SQL "normal" programmers know. It honestly changed my opinion on ORMs - it's not like the SQL people would write exceeds the basic select/filter/count patterns that is the most that non-data people know.

[sanderjd]

> But software developers often struggle to use sql

Is this true? It doesn't seem true to me.

[winnie_ua]

Oh, sweet summer child.

Yes, there are so many so called developers in backend field of work who do not know how to do basic SQL. Anything bigger than s9imple WHERE clause.

I wouldn't even talk about using indexes in database.

[nathanfig]

Claude made this point while reviewing my blog for me: the mechanization of farms created a whole lot more specialization of roles. The person editing CAD diagrams of next year's combine harvester may not be a farmer strictly speaking, but farming is still where their livelihood comes from.

[dredmorbius]

Strictly speaking, farming is where all our livelihoods come from, in the greatest part. We're all living off the surplus value of food production.

(Also of other food, energy, and materials sourcing: fishing, forestry, mining, etc.)

This was the insight of the French economist François Quesnay in his Tableau économique, foundation of the Physiocratic school of economics.

[lipowitz]

Removing jobs that could only be performed by those living near the particular fields with those that can be done anywhere makes jobs for the person willing to take the least satisfactory compensation for the most skill and work.

Working the summer fields was one of the least desirable jobs but still gave local students with no particular skills a good supplemental income appropriate for whichever region.

[swader999]

Land is scarce though. The amount of software work that needs doing might not be, it could be infinite or probably more tied to electrical capacity.

[downrightmike]

They're all real programmers John