[SuperShibe]

The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia). BSW wasn't even elected into the parliament and AfD, while being part of the parliament, has virtually no power due to not being part of the government coalition and all other parties sharing an informal agreement to not pass legislations with the help of AfD.

What I'm trying to say is that these two do not represent the German political landscape at all. They also, while on different ends of the left-right-spectrum, both only represent the pro-Russian minority of the German political landscape. This is not a debate happening in Germany right now and no other party has expressed support of any position.

[jamil7]

I thought Wagenknecht had somewhat distanced herself from pro-kremlin positions she and parts of Die Linke previously held? She's still pretty staunchly anti-NATO, though. I think her German-nationalist positions kind of overlap with positions that benefit Russia like resuming gas supplies to drop energy prices and heating costs.

[exiguus]

The top AfD politicians, of course. But there are many other AfD members and employees who received money from Russian influenced people. Currently, the top AfD politicians are shifting from being in love with Russia to being in love with the US. Actually the AfD has been fined several times because they have violated the donation regulations for political parties (2017, 2020 and 2021).

[eqvinox]

Other way around, Wagenknecht is the one who didn't distance herself from the Kremlin and forked off her own party, BSW, which finally enabled Die Linke to get at least some distance from the Kremlin. (This schism was fracturing that party so hard…)

[parthdesai]

Is far-left really pro-Russia or just anti-US? Not everyone that is anti-US (which a lot of people with common sense would be tbf) is pro-Russia

[ljf]

My only knowledge of them is a cursory Wikipedia search, but yes it appears they are pro-Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahra_Wagenknecht_Alliance

[mindjiver]

We are talking about a splinter party (BSW) from the main left party (Die Linke) which is a kind of anti-woke- and anti-immigration-party that spouts basically the normal Kremlin propaganda lines about Ukraine. There is of course anti-US sentiment there since is secondary to their main issue, peace at any cost so that Germany can get cheaper energy again.

Note that I'm not a German national but I live in Germany (former DDR / East) since 9 years.

[int_19h]

Not just in Germany but elsewhere, the rule of thumb is that libertarian socialists (anarchists etc) tend to be both anti-US and anti-Russia, while the more common and more authoritarian kind tend to be pro-whoever is anti West, including Russia, China, or places like Syria was under Assad.

[slightwinder]

They are mainly pro-communism and anti-capitalism, delve in Marxism, Lenin, Stalin, etc. and are very supportive, less critical of modern Russia. It's probably kinda like people who are supportive of the USA, don't necessarily are supportive of everything MAGA & Trump are doing, but still support it in general.

[hannob]

> The Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US)

Picturing BSW as far-left, while not uncommon, strikes me always as very strange. While it's a bit unclear where to put them with their wild mixture of populism, the only reason they are by some seen as leftwing is because of the history of their founder. She was previously a member of the left party, but for many years, even while she still was a member of that party, has not held any views that could count as far-left.

The only reason some still put her in the far-left camp is that she was, looooong ago, a member of the communist platform in the PDS, the predecessor of the left party in Germany.

[badestrand]

The BSW is indeed an interesting mix because they are conservative-liberal-left while usually leftist parties are progressive and authoritarian-leaning instead.

Examples for the BSW's left politics are * higher taxes for the rich * higher taxes for large and international companies * take on new debt to finance stuff * more state-aided social housing.

[tonyedgecombe]

The far left don’t look much different from the far right.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

The thoughts about bringing it back home are nothing new, though. And not limited to BSW/AFD at all.

See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Goldreserven#Diskussi... for some history.

Or some articles from around 10/2012:

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/warum-das-deutsche-gold-i...

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/bundesbank-soll-den-ganze...

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/bundesbank-enthuellt-so-v...

(yooze trännzläyshun!1!!)

[fanwood]

It's still a very good idea given the US instability and complete lack of trust in this administration

[cempaka]

It's not just this administration, it's been essentially open season for fraud in the U.S. financial system ever since 2008. If you're a hoi polloi dentist who makes $100,000 trading options off of some insider info then yes, there are SEC cops on the beat who will come after you. Otherwise, you can pretty much do whatever you want until & unless a whole lot of people lose money, at which point it's too late.

[mslansn]

AfD represents the political landscape, even if they (yet) have no power because other parties have chosen to marginalise them whilst still can. As long as you have votes, there are people behind you. Isn’t that democracy?

[Paradigma11]

The AfD got 21% last elections.

[Aldipower]

As it is correct, that they are virtually not in power, framing them as pro-russia is some sort of false flag. Just because they are not anti-russia, like every other party, does not automatically mean that they are pro-russia. AfD and BSW together got more then 25% of all votes. So, you are correct, they virtually are not in power, but they have some real power just by being there. This HN post here is the best example for this mechanism.

[razemio]

I think anti-nato, anti eu, pro russian gas and anti urkraine war aid qualify as pro russian. I get your point, but I think you are wrong? Just read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AfD_pro-Russia_movement

AfD has SO many connections to the Kremel. At least a big part of AfD is obiously influenced by russian agenda. BSW is a different topic. They might just align with many points russia likes, but you can not be sure either.

BSW or AfD with power in the Bundestag would be russias wet dream in regards to german politics.

[notTooFarGone]

>framing them as pro-russia is some sort of false flag.

They just take russian talking points and deliver them to their voters. It's just conveniently the same shit. And business trips to russia are just there to enjoy the scenery.

If they talk like russians, are present in russia, do interviews in russian media and don't condemn russian warcrimes...

Maybe it's just as easy?

[Eupolemos]

When another nation wants to subjugate or invade you and/or your neighbors, not being against is being pro them.

Being against military expenditures and alliances when the other nation is arming like there is no tomorrow is being pro getting invaded.

It is not complicated.

[slightwinder]

They are openly supporting Russia, take their money, visit them while meeting high ranking Russian assets and are spreading the same Ideas. There is no framing here.

[bboygravity]

That's all fine and dandy, but also IMO it's entirely possible that the US cannot deliver their gold if these countries (and/or others) wanted it back.

Just look at what happened when Venezuela wanted their gold back. It took ages and that was a relatively tiny amount.

It's extremely naive for many EU countries to still believe that they "have" "their" gold stored in the US. And even more naive to not try and get it back.

The entire US banking and financial system relies on NOT delivering or owning the underlying (fractional reserve banking, federal reserve printing money out of thin air, failures to deliver every single day on everything from stocks to government bonds, failing CDS'es and so on).

[user____name]

> The entire US banking and financial system relies on NOT delivering or owning the underlying (fractional reserve banking, federal reserve printing money out of thin air

This is sadly a very common misunderstanding of how money is created inside the financial system, even by professional economists and financial advisers. In reality money is not valued at parity with some physical material but as a simple act of accounting [0,1,2,3,4]. Historically a currency (subset) has been pegged against rare minerals as a method of insurance against state or exchange rate instability, the flip side is that this restricts state spending and economic growth -- a growing economy needs a growing stock of currency to service loans and avoid debt driven deflation, as in e.g. the great depression [5,6,7]. This is why gold/silver standards are always episodic in world history [8]. Even in the fien-de-secle gold standard era the majority of currency in circulation had its origin in endogenous bank lending [9]. The typical stability and viability of a currency is from the fact that it can be used to procure real goods in the wider market, which in turn is because money contracts are legally enforced via social power relations, e.g. by a local government with the power make and enforce such rules. Incidentally this is why cryptocurrencies act as an investment asset and not as a currency, it lacks the enforcement component and it appreciates in value, which is never what you want for a currency [10].

[0] Bank of England, Money Creation in the Modern Economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m... [1] Deutsche Bundesbank, The role of banks, non- banks and the central­ bank in the money creation process https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/654284/df66c4444d065... [2] Richard A. Werner, A lost century in economics: Three theories of banking and the conclusive evidence https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S105752191... [3] Augusto Graziani, The Monetary Theory of Production https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/monetary-theory-of-prod... [4] Basil J. Moore, Horizontalists and Verticalists https://www.cambridge.org/sc/universitypress/subjects/econom... [5] Scientific Origin, What Was the Gold Standard, How It Worked, and Why It Ended https://scientificorigin.com/the-gold-standard-what-it-was-h... [6] Irving Fisher, The Debt Deflation Theory of Great Depressions https://www.jstor.org/stable/1907327 [7] Hyman P. Minsky, The Debt Deflation Theory of Great Depressions https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232609677.pdf [8] Marc Lavoie, Endogenous Money: Accomodationist https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287788671_Endogenou... [9] David Graeber, DEBT: The First 5000 Years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5,000_Years [10] Wikipedia, Silvio Gesell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Gesell

Apologies for the lengthy response, it's a personal pet peeve.

[stogot]

“Sell” it to a third country (Switzerland) who provides a certificate of deposit in a vault?

[infecto]

It’s extremely naive to think the Federal Reserve has lent out the gold and it no longer exists. It’s up there with insider job 9/11 conspiracies.

Modern banking and finance, not just in the US, relies on fractional reserves. This is not a movie.

[raymond_goo]

If 23% do not represent the German political landscape at all, I don't know what does...

[regularization]

You're correct this does not matter this year. But in the 2013 German election, AFD got no seats, and now it has the second most seats. BSW was not around in the 2021 election, they got about 5% of the vote but Die Linke managed not to lose their vote to BSW. BSW probably picked up voters who would have gone to either AFD or Die Linke (kind of like voters in the early 1930s who switched between the KPD and NSDAP).

This is the future of European, and US elections. Undermining Russia is important to the rulers of Europe and the US, but not as much to workers and voters. You can see the sea change with Trump in office and socialist candidates like Bernie, who is getting huge crowds in Idaho and Oklahoma, or AOC and Zohran in New York. Young people can't afford houses, even programmers are having trouble since the 2022 layoffs - can you imagine the Amazin RTO in Seattle mandate would be possible in 2021? Wealth inequality leads to disruption, and political parties are made to appeal to the masses - either fascist or socialist. The political tendencies arising are no anomaly.

[slightwinder]

> But in the 2013 German election, AFD got no seats

They were founded in 2013 and missed the seat by just 0.3%.

> BSW probably picked up voters who would have gone to either AFD

AFD-Voters were the lowest group they grew from[1]. They mostly harvest from the political left, but also some (probably non-extrem?) right voters.

[1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wahl/archiv/2025-02-23-BT-DE/analy...

[gruez]

> You can see the sea change with Trump in office and socialist candidates like Bernie, who is getting huge crowds in Idaho and Oklahoma, or AOC and Zohran in New York.

I can see how Trump being in office is indisputable sign that populists are getting popular, but what does "huge crowds" cash out to? "crowds" should be as little as 1000 people. Combine that with to urban-rural and education polarization, and it doesn't seem too hard to get a 1000 college educated city dwellers to show up to a rally in Idaho.

[nforgerit]

This is a very superficial perspective. Disclaimer: I disdain both BSW and Afd.

You're basically falling into "the populist trap" in which they take a fact or something true and wrap it with a lot of BS and conspiracy theories. If you disregard the true core "just because it's from the wrong party" you give them political lever. We've seen that playbook working out for 10+ years.

De Masi did a great job as a financial expert in a parliamentary group, highly regarded by people over the whole political spectrum. I don't understand why he joined BSW but that doesn't weaken his point here.

And since we're already publicly discussing Trump blackmailing us with decommissioning US IT-Services without further notice, it is exactly right to talk about assets like gold being stored on US soil.

[timcobb]

> "just because it's from the wrong party"

Extremists should never be ignored, especially in unstable times, but mentioning that these people are currently not in power and aren't even in the parliament is good context.

[taikahessu]

EU might certainly not be perfect, but as of yet, we don't shoot our own people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

[FpUser]

So repatriating your own property is now pro-Russian propaganda? Unless country is defenseless what is wrong with keeping one's things at one's place

[dubbel]

We are talking about national gold reserves, not some household items.

They exist for the reason to liquidate them in case of national emergencies/severe economic crises. It's easier to liquidate these reserves when they are stored in trading hubs. That could be New York and London, or maybe even Shanghai, if China wasn't a systemic rival.

Storing all of them at "one's place" is a larger risk than splitting it up and storing them in several places, each with a different risk profile.

[vincnetas]

Usually russian propoganda is anything that stirs internal conflict. This does not mean that any internal conflict is russia propoganda, but they are very quick to try amplify any conflicts. This is KGB strategy of active measures (subversion). Read more here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Bezmenov

[AnimalMuppet]

From World War II, the problem with keeping it at your own place was that, if someone overruns your country, your government-in-exile may be able to keep control of gold that is outside your country. Gold that is inside your country, however, is controlled by the invader. (And may be looted by them. Even if you later get your country back, the gold may be gone.)

That exposes you to the risk of the country holding it. But for much of recent history, the US was seen as a lesser risk than a Russian invasion. Whether that is still the way the risks balance... I think we each may hold our own opinion on that.

[52-6F-62]

In this case, if you’re American. It signals a loss of trust in them which is an impossible absurdity if your a priori is that America is the eternal good and only future for us all. Can’t have that.

[littlestymaar]

Both things can be true at once: the politicians talking can have legitimates arguments while being part of pro-Russian parties that don't have power in Germany and do not represent the German government opinion.

[pydry]

In general America considers non puppets to be puppets of another country and considers only its own puppets to be truly "free".

This is as true in the middle east, europe, africa, south america or asia.

[throw0101b]

> […] * BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia).*

An example of:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

?

[mdavid626]

This is a very skewed view of the political landscape. Would be nice to forget this pro/anti Russia narrative. Please also note that AfD has become the strongest party in Germany. Sure, firewalled, but question is, for how long.

[bc569a80a344f9c]

> Please also note that AfD has become the strongest party in Germany

It has not. They got 20% in the last Bundestag election, compared to 28.4% for CDU. Unless they get significantly stronger it seems very unlikely that anyone wants to be in a coalition with them on the short or medium horizon.

[kadrian12]

Not true. CDU/CSU was the strongest party in the last election. Stick to the facts, please.