Just after I took on my new role, I wrote to Kevin Kelly and asked if I could meet him (I assumed he wouldn't know who I was, even though we've met informally, but he did). I wanted to talk to him about talking about how to be optimistic about technology. At my heart, I still remain positive about the contributions and opportunities of technology, but I've increasingly struggled to know how to convey, qualify or transmit that. He immediately accepted, I visited him in his tower, and we had a great, sprawling conversation. Like this author, he renewed my confidence in that framing, and the importance of it existing in the world. That single conversation has kept me going more than anything else over the last three or so years.
I realise in reading this, that I never wrote after the fact to say thanks for that: so, thanks, KK, for everything.
The tech sector has grown and changed so much. It has gotten much more "professional" which is arguably good but it this in turn promotes a fair amount of "corporate stooge" behavior. I am guilty here for sure, it is really easy to focus on levels, promo packets, OKRs, especially as you age and responsibility grows and forget what make this industry amazing in the first place.
Good reminder to focus on direction and interests and what you feel should be built. Reminds be a bit of the opening section of "The Art of Doing Science and Engineering" which I only came across because I liked other Stripe press books.
You also meet more interesting and passionate people if you pick a direction vs a destination.
Brie, author of the profile here. Funny you mention Art of Doing Science and Engineering. There was a footnote to You and Your Research in an early draft but it hit the cutting room floor in edits. (Also, I helped get Stripe Press off the ground–including tracking down rights to Art of Doing Science and Engineering–so it warms my heart to hear that's how you first came to the essay/speech).
Is this a story about Kevin Kelly or is this an autobiography? It purports to be the former but it's largely about the author's work history. It sort of gestures vaguely at being an interview with Kevin but there's only about four paragraphs in the entire article that contain quotes from him in response to things the author asked, and most of these are about his collection of knick-knacks.
I kept on waiting for a series of questions that acted as springboards for long responses from Kelly that included him talking about the value of an approach to work that he calls "flounder mode" but they never came; the only appearance of "flounder" is in the title. It's an extended intro to an interview that never actually comes. You talked with Kelly all day and hooray, great for you meeting one of your idols! But you barely tell us a single thing he said.
I first thought this is about Kevin Kelly. Then somewhere midway I thought I was reading an autobiography. It was only towards the latter half that I realized this is the author talking about Kevin Kelly and visiting his house.
Even though the language is very simple, the writing is quite convoluted.
it's an autobiography with the lens of "here's how my philosophy of life has been influenced by kelly". I found it more interesting than your summary led me to expect!
If you want a list of quotes by Kevin Kelly, I'm sure they are just a Google search away. Sometimes, the reader has to do a little work - in this case, to determine what 'Flounder' means. Perhaps it means just that, which is to fumble around awkwardly, kinda like a fish out of water? It's kind of a murky word, and we don't really know how to use it in a sentence. It actually matches the whole tone of the article pretty well, especially when the author talks about how they may have made a huge mistake with their career by bouncing around and trying whatever seems interesting.
Agreed, it gives the impression he had nothing to say. Probably a wrong impression. Shining a light too brightly is often the same as turning off the lights
As a young person in the United States, the main concern is that if you aren't one of the greatest at what you do, you'll be doomed to a life of increasing poverty: food derived from vegetable oils and chemically bleached wheat, apartments of grey laminate flooring and concrete, crime, people who derive their actions from social media, a 60 minute commute---as the real world: nature, people who are present, quality food, becomes increasingly out of reach.
> As a young person in the United States, the main concern is that if you aren't one of the greatest at what you do, you'll be doomed to a life of increasing poverty
In psychology there’s a concept called splitting, or dichotomous thinking, where a person only thinks of things in concepts of their extremes. Either the most extreme good outcome, or the most extreme bad outcome. They might see people or public figures as either amazing or evil. The Wikipedia page has a primer on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) But you don’t need a Wikipedia article or psychology concepts to realize that there are more outcomes than extreme success or increasing poverty.
I’m fascinated by how these concepts that were once relegated to psychology and therapy have started to become commonplace among young people on the internet. They’re not seen as failure modes in thinking, but rather an obvious conclusion from whatever they’ve been consuming so much of online.
The comment above is a prime example. Even the obsession over “food derived from vegetable oils and chemically bleached wheat” is a confusing conclusion for me, someone who has had no problem avoiding wheat products and eating healthy on a budget with even minimal effort. The food topic is particularly strange because it’s not that hard to learn basic cooking skills, buy cheap vegetable, and cook quick and easy meals. Yet I continue talking to young people who simultaneously fret about food quality while filling their diets with nothing but processed and fast foods, many of which are more expensive than cooking basic fast meals.
I don’t know what else to say, other than the above style of thinking is, in my experience, indicative of what happens when someone collects too much perspective from the internet and not enough from the real world. Given the context of this comment section, I can only recommend trying to reevaluate, disconnect from the internet a little more, and make an effort to reconnect with the real world
"the greatest at what you do" is by definition a zero sum framing that will lead 99.999% of participants to view their lives as a failure. It is literally madness to make this your goal.
The alternative is to choose to be very good at what you do, which has a good chance of success if you try hard at something you care about.
I’m not from the US, but from my visits there and continuous reading of the living conditions in America this comment seems painfully true. As someone living in Israel I’m grateful we don’t live in those extremes.
I too would like to hear more from people with similar approaches to work, career and technology to KK. However, it seems like there’s a large amount of survivorship bias at play when people talk about just following their interests and it leading to financial security and work freedom.
It’s not quite about following your interest. It’s learning how to take an interest in your interests, IMO.
Basically if you pursue your interest half heartedly or without the rigor and discipline that you would under pressure of work, you would probably never do anything interesting with your interests. But if you held yourself to the same standard of excellence in your interests that you do in work, then your interests will take on a quality that allows it to stand on its own.
Of course there’s a survivorship bias. Everyone’s gotta eat, and the path of least resistance is to get a job and do what you’re told. Finding an alternative path is much harder of course, but in the grand scheme of things well supported by our industrial prosperity and individualist culture.
If you look around you’ll find more people doing it than you think, they just tend to be less famous than business moguls since peculiar interests are more of a niche thing but everyone is interested in material success.
Meh I took a serious left turn after college and my first few jobs. Much happier now.
Work on Capitol Hill for less than a year then tech outsourcing then consulting. Realized it was boring, useless, and mind numbing and moved across the world. Now have multiple businesses, more than 30 employees across those business, and I get to have fun. It's stressful sometimes but I think we've kicked the stress finally (at 37). Now it's just fun and we get to see what we can pull off when we want to.
Most people simply quit or aren't willing to do the uncomfortable things. It's uncomfortable to be unbothered. But I certainly didn't follow my interests. I used my interests to get better at what was in front of us. Gotta pay the bills and give people what they want, I just put my own spin on it.
Brie, great essay, and salient - thank you! I had a similar set of feelings getting to know John Seeley Brown; another legend albeit slightly older than KK. Reading his bio on his website once just put me at ease; his interests were so varied and the work he’d done was so interesting, but the through line was just .. him, a person and his interests.
I once asked him about his career and he was very uncomfortable with the idea in any sense - he was like “Do I have a career?”
I’d like a follow up from you in ten years, though: or maybe a counterpoint about someone else: I’ve recently been mulling over what parts of “just follow your interests” is a super power and what part is just ADD/an excuse for not getting through the boring parts that lead to long term impact: right now my self review is I should have settled down a little.
Thanks again! Fun to read about you and Kevin and see those awesome photos.
> an excuse for not getting through the boring parts that lead to long term impact
Personally I don't worry too much about long term impact. It's incredibly hard to actually predict what will have an impact after you're gone, and the world will have forgotten about approximately all of us in a hundred years or so. Instead, I focus on the idea that folks happily engaged in useful work produce useful things.
I really appreciated hearing about the author’s journey and relating it to my own so far.
It was only about two years ago that I was obsessed with the idea of starting my own ambitious startup and “conquering the world”, but I’m now moreso considering the idea that I can have a significant positive impact on the world through building and contributing to software in a more “pro-bono” way.
As kk said in the article:
> “I think one of the least interesting reasons to be interested in something is money,”
Very inspiring read. A non-trivial application of it if you work in a fairly big org and the product roadmap is non-existent/uninspiring: in such context, you will often find exciting projects/revenue streams in the cracks of the system/market, not by waiting for the product/strategy team to come up with these exciting venues (pro tip: they won't)
Find some interest in your current product and go hard after it.
I particularly like feeling like you need permission to show optimism and enthusiasm about your work.
I also particularly like this bit:
“Greatness is overrated,” he said, and I perked up. “It’s a form of extremism, and it comes with extreme vices that I have no interest in. Steve Jobs was a jerk. Bob Dylan is a jerk.”
...but mostly out of a sense of confirmation bias. It's nice to know that there are smart, accomplished people out there who share my view that Steve Jobs and Bob Dylan are jerks.
One thing this helped crystallize for me, in my position as a nascent team leader, is the position that: "If something about your daily work sucks, let's talk about it. That's the first step to seeing if we can fix it."
This seems like - not a panacea? But a solid strategy to help uncover many problems in an organization.
It's definitely something that I was guilty of really early into the development idea, sleepness nights, 80 hour weeks, this idea that greatness must be achieved.
But actually, chilling out, taking time to think about where you actually want to be past accolades and achievements is really important.
Many successful American tech founders and entrepreneurs have strong religious or spiritual beliefs — I believe it's part of the unique competitive advantage and edge in this industry
"G-Chat with Charleton, in which he would interview Google executives while sitting with them in a two-person snuggie." What a sight that must have been haha
As a potter, when I open my gas fired kiln, I hope for one piece I really love. That’s enough. I think success is in the moment of experience. Maybe an effective passage in one of my novels.
Just a diet of the small things. Above and beyond that, we lose control over what’s good, great, bad, or important. We don’t see the true consequences of most of what we do.
This so much! great article and Kelly sounds like the type of person I would love to meet..
- having just endured time in a startup that was all about PMF, metrics and the 'growth flywheel', that pushed aside human intuition and creativity in place of 'winning'. It's indeed such a waste of humanity that the Reid hoffman's and Bezos's of the world can push inhuman cultural tropes of "winning" over our humanity. Just who is winning, the board, the VCs certainly not the person who loses his soul? On top of that, in today's world AI Slop and social media and lunatic linkedin influencers pushing those same memes hyped to eleven by AI tools, relentlessly on young founders and engineers via push notifications. day and night -what message do we deliver to ourselves?.
Amazon for all its technical chops and innovation and LinkedIn are anti-patterns in that regard. Do not follow.
Also, its too bad that silicon valley is so ageist that the lessons and wisdom of the older generation tend to get forgotten or cast aside-wish that we could at least take advantage of capitalism in our culture instead of it taking advantage of us
When we lose the pleasure of finding things out, going with our passions and intution and lose our love of creativity and invention, curiosity, patience and empathy we loose who we are as a human in society
A very cathartic read. I enjoyed this, and I really related to the author's anxieties.
Our economics has created a collective belief that if you aren't trying to be the best at playing the game, then you will be left behind in poverty. Mediocrity is shunned in Silicon Valley, and the rise of social media has only inflated that idea. We're increasingly checking our humanity at the door so we can be great, and sacrifice ourselves at the altar of capitalism. For what? So we can look ourselves in the mirror and believe we are one of the special chosen ones?
The article "Flounder Mode" on JoinColossus.com, while ostensibly about Kevin Kelly and a concept called "flounder mode," is primarily an autobiographical reflection by the author on their own career and life philosophy.
The author describes their journey through various roles and experiences, from working on Capitol Hill to tech outsourcing and consulting, and ultimately to building multiple businesses. They touch upon themes of finding purpose, opting out of traditional success metrics (like reaching the top of a corporate hierarchy), and the importance of pursuing one's interests even if it feels "uncomfortable" or lacking immediate structure.
Despite the title, direct quotes and extended insights from Kevin Kelly on "flounder mode" are minimal. The article's core message seems to be that success can be found by embracing a less linear, more explorative approach to one's career, much like a "floundering" fish might move around until it finds its way. The author suggests that this "flounder mode" involves an openness to trying different things, even if they don't immediately seem to lead to a clear path, and that this can ultimately lead to more fulfilling and interesting work.
Downvoted. Anyone who wants Gemini’s take on this is capable of getting it; what’s hard is finding thoughts from other people of interest. Please don’t post these.
dannyobrien|8 months ago
I realise in reading this, that I never wrote after the fact to say thanks for that: so, thanks, KK, for everything.
unknown|8 months ago
[deleted]
flir|8 months ago
(Alternative comment: I think oblomovka's down).
pclowes|8 months ago
The tech sector has grown and changed so much. It has gotten much more "professional" which is arguably good but it this in turn promotes a fair amount of "corporate stooge" behavior. I am guilty here for sure, it is really easy to focus on levels, promo packets, OKRs, especially as you age and responsibility grows and forget what make this industry amazing in the first place.
Good reminder to focus on direction and interests and what you feel should be built. Reminds be a bit of the opening section of "The Art of Doing Science and Engineering" which I only came across because I liked other Stripe press books.
You also meet more interesting and passionate people if you pick a direction vs a destination.
zebriez|8 months ago
egypturnash|8 months ago
I kept on waiting for a series of questions that acted as springboards for long responses from Kelly that included him talking about the value of an approach to work that he calls "flounder mode" but they never came; the only appearance of "flounder" is in the title. It's an extended intro to an interview that never actually comes. You talked with Kelly all day and hooray, great for you meeting one of your idols! But you barely tell us a single thing he said.
deepGem|8 months ago
Even though the language is very simple, the writing is quite convoluted.
zem|8 months ago
ashwinsundar|8 months ago
zombiwoof|8 months ago
richardatlarge|8 months ago
tgsovlerkhgsel|8 months ago
jollyllama|8 months ago
kaiwenwang|8 months ago
Aurornis|8 months ago
In psychology there’s a concept called splitting, or dichotomous thinking, where a person only thinks of things in concepts of their extremes. Either the most extreme good outcome, or the most extreme bad outcome. They might see people or public figures as either amazing or evil. The Wikipedia page has a primer on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) But you don’t need a Wikipedia article or psychology concepts to realize that there are more outcomes than extreme success or increasing poverty.
I’m fascinated by how these concepts that were once relegated to psychology and therapy have started to become commonplace among young people on the internet. They’re not seen as failure modes in thinking, but rather an obvious conclusion from whatever they’ve been consuming so much of online.
The comment above is a prime example. Even the obsession over “food derived from vegetable oils and chemically bleached wheat” is a confusing conclusion for me, someone who has had no problem avoiding wheat products and eating healthy on a budget with even minimal effort. The food topic is particularly strange because it’s not that hard to learn basic cooking skills, buy cheap vegetable, and cook quick and easy meals. Yet I continue talking to young people who simultaneously fret about food quality while filling their diets with nothing but processed and fast foods, many of which are more expensive than cooking basic fast meals.
I don’t know what else to say, other than the above style of thinking is, in my experience, indicative of what happens when someone collects too much perspective from the internet and not enough from the real world. Given the context of this comment section, I can only recommend trying to reevaluate, disconnect from the internet a little more, and make an effort to reconnect with the real world
chr15m|8 months ago
The alternative is to choose to be very good at what you do, which has a good chance of success if you try hard at something you care about.
pragmatic|8 months ago
You don’t have to be faster than the bear, just faster than the other people the bear is chasing.
The bar is so low in corporate America you could trip on it.
Just try to be halfway competent, do something useful at work, read a book or two about your industry. You’re already way ahead.
Don’t fall for the hacker news bs.
Lots of millionaires out here that never had a successful startup.
iddan|8 months ago
jebarker|8 months ago
spyckie2|8 months ago
Basically if you pursue your interest half heartedly or without the rigor and discipline that you would under pressure of work, you would probably never do anything interesting with your interests. But if you held yourself to the same standard of excellence in your interests that you do in work, then your interests will take on a quality that allows it to stand on its own.
dasil003|8 months ago
If you look around you’ll find more people doing it than you think, they just tend to be less famous than business moguls since peculiar interests are more of a niche thing but everyone is interested in material success.
robertritz|8 months ago
Work on Capitol Hill for less than a year then tech outsourcing then consulting. Realized it was boring, useless, and mind numbing and moved across the world. Now have multiple businesses, more than 30 employees across those business, and I get to have fun. It's stressful sometimes but I think we've kicked the stress finally (at 37). Now it's just fun and we get to see what we can pull off when we want to.
Most people simply quit or aren't willing to do the uncomfortable things. It's uncomfortable to be unbothered. But I certainly didn't follow my interests. I used my interests to get better at what was in front of us. Gotta pay the bills and give people what they want, I just put my own spin on it.
vessenes|8 months ago
I once asked him about his career and he was very uncomfortable with the idea in any sense - he was like “Do I have a career?”
I’d like a follow up from you in ten years, though: or maybe a counterpoint about someone else: I’ve recently been mulling over what parts of “just follow your interests” is a super power and what part is just ADD/an excuse for not getting through the boring parts that lead to long term impact: right now my self review is I should have settled down a little.
Thanks again! Fun to read about you and Kevin and see those awesome photos.
mathgeek|8 months ago
Personally I don't worry too much about long term impact. It's incredibly hard to actually predict what will have an impact after you're gone, and the world will have forgotten about approximately all of us in a hundred years or so. Instead, I focus on the idea that folks happily engaged in useful work produce useful things.
joshdavham|8 months ago
It was only about two years ago that I was obsessed with the idea of starting my own ambitious startup and “conquering the world”, but I’m now moreso considering the idea that I can have a significant positive impact on the world through building and contributing to software in a more “pro-bono” way.
As kk said in the article:
> “I think one of the least interesting reasons to be interested in something is money,”
cjbohlman|8 months ago
Reminds me a lot of Ryan Norbauer's writings (https://ryan.norbauer.com/journal/the-outsider-option-why-i-...) on why he sold half his company and the satisfaction he got from being able to focus on doing the work that he considered fun.
I hope to engage my interests and hobbies in this way, super thankful that I have the opportunity to try.
whiplash451|8 months ago
Find some interest in your current product and go hard after it.
cushychicken|8 months ago
I particularly like feeling like you need permission to show optimism and enthusiasm about your work.
I also particularly like this bit:
“Greatness is overrated,” he said, and I perked up. “It’s a form of extremism, and it comes with extreme vices that I have no interest in. Steve Jobs was a jerk. Bob Dylan is a jerk.”
...but mostly out of a sense of confirmation bias. It's nice to know that there are smart, accomplished people out there who share my view that Steve Jobs and Bob Dylan are jerks.
One thing this helped crystallize for me, in my position as a nascent team leader, is the position that: "If something about your daily work sucks, let's talk about it. That's the first step to seeing if we can fix it."
This seems like - not a panacea? But a solid strategy to help uncover many problems in an organization.
Enjoyed the read. Thanks for posting.
endymion-light|8 months ago
It's definitely something that I was guilty of really early into the development idea, sleepness nights, 80 hour weeks, this idea that greatness must be achieved.
But actually, chilling out, taking time to think about where you actually want to be past accolades and achievements is really important.
blendo|8 months ago
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2011/07/geektheologian/
yeeetz|8 months ago
panza|8 months ago
gleenn|8 months ago
richardatlarge|8 months ago
Just a diet of the small things. Above and beyond that, we lose control over what’s good, great, bad, or important. We don’t see the true consequences of most of what we do.
srean|8 months ago
Beautiful read.
robertritz|8 months ago
nathanbarry|8 months ago
AIorNot|8 months ago
- having just endured time in a startup that was all about PMF, metrics and the 'growth flywheel', that pushed aside human intuition and creativity in place of 'winning'. It's indeed such a waste of humanity that the Reid hoffman's and Bezos's of the world can push inhuman cultural tropes of "winning" over our humanity. Just who is winning, the board, the VCs certainly not the person who loses his soul? On top of that, in today's world AI Slop and social media and lunatic linkedin influencers pushing those same memes hyped to eleven by AI tools, relentlessly on young founders and engineers via push notifications. day and night -what message do we deliver to ourselves?.
Amazon for all its technical chops and innovation and LinkedIn are anti-patterns in that regard. Do not follow.
Also, its too bad that silicon valley is so ageist that the lessons and wisdom of the older generation tend to get forgotten or cast aside-wish that we could at least take advantage of capitalism in our culture instead of it taking advantage of us
When we lose the pleasure of finding things out, going with our passions and intution and lose our love of creativity and invention, curiosity, patience and empathy we loose who we are as a human in society
mindwok|8 months ago
Our economics has created a collective belief that if you aren't trying to be the best at playing the game, then you will be left behind in poverty. Mediocrity is shunned in Silicon Valley, and the rise of social media has only inflated that idea. We're increasingly checking our humanity at the door so we can be great, and sacrifice ourselves at the altar of capitalism. For what? So we can look ourselves in the mirror and believe we are one of the special chosen ones?
unknown|8 months ago
[deleted]
unknown|8 months ago
[deleted]
unknown|8 months ago
[deleted]
natalyarostova|8 months ago
[deleted]
tgsovlerkhgsel|8 months ago
The article "Flounder Mode" on JoinColossus.com, while ostensibly about Kevin Kelly and a concept called "flounder mode," is primarily an autobiographical reflection by the author on their own career and life philosophy.
The author describes their journey through various roles and experiences, from working on Capitol Hill to tech outsourcing and consulting, and ultimately to building multiple businesses. They touch upon themes of finding purpose, opting out of traditional success metrics (like reaching the top of a corporate hierarchy), and the importance of pursuing one's interests even if it feels "uncomfortable" or lacking immediate structure.
Despite the title, direct quotes and extended insights from Kevin Kelly on "flounder mode" are minimal. The article's core message seems to be that success can be found by embracing a less linear, more explorative approach to one's career, much like a "floundering" fish might move around until it finds its way. The author suggests that this "flounder mode" involves an openness to trying different things, even if they don't immediately seem to lead to a clear path, and that this can ultimately lead to more fulfilling and interesting work.
vessenes|8 months ago