> What is going on here? Do we really like cats because they have ‘baby faces’ or because they are ‘neotenous’ or kittens sound a little like human babies? These are common theories, but make little sense to me. The relationship between baby-faces and animal liking is weak to begin with (eg. Archer & Monton 2010). Cats objectively do not look that much like babies.
This strikes me as a too simplistic view of neoteny.
You could have a look at Anime or Pixar or cartoon characters and ask the same questions. They also objectively don't look like kids if you make a photo comparison side-by-side (at least in certain styles). Their features are so exaggerated they strictly speaking don't even look human.
Nevertheless, they can cause strong reactions and emotions in viewers in a similar way OP here described for cats.
My guess is that both (cats and anime) hacked our visual network in a sense: They took some visual features that evoke "cuteness" in humans and which likely evolved for the purpose of driving us to protect our kids - and dialled them up to 11 and combined them with not child-like features to evoke a response that's even more intense than the one we have for kids.
So in a sense, they look more like kids than actual kids do.
> My guess is that both (cats and anime) hacked our visual network in a sense
It's not just cats. It's many furry mammals. But it's also most birds, which look completely different. And bees and bumblebees, even more different. To a lesser degree even some beetles and even turtles and frogs.
I would say a love of all of those is quote widespread, given how many of them are the main or major supporting characters of Youtube videos, movies, books and web novels and other publications.
You can hypothesize something older too: that neoteny is about mammalian caretaking, not even human per se. I hypothesize if it's furry and small enough, with simple enough facial features, it will look cute.
- evolutionarily evolved feelings do not need to be logically consistent with the evolutionary benefit, as a long as they cause the evolutionarily beneficial behavior
An example that I observe is in guinea pigs. These are quintessential prey animals, and benefit from being under cover. If domestic guinea pigs don't have cover for a few hours, and are then given it, they run under the cover. Do they then breathe a sign of relief, and show signs that their emotion is one of renewed safety? No, they jump up and down, and squeak noisily in excitement! Apparently being under cover is cool.
If you read the article, it specifically talks about phenomena not observed with other animals, like dogs. I don't know if I agree that such phenomena certainly exists, but that doesn't mean it can't be a fun thought exercise to speculate about potential reasons for one.
You remember that super popular kid (+5 CHA) in middle or high school who wouldn't acknowledge your existence in a group, but would suddenly somehow make you feel like the center of the world when there was no one else available and they deigned to turn their attention to you? That's a cat. My theory, anyway.
Also, have to mention a relevant quote from the beginning of Dungeon Crawler Carl which features an awakened cat as one of it's protagonists:
"I get it cats are assholes, but you know why people like cats despite their assholeness? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T F*$#ING TALK! If cats could talk and they were all like you, they'd be extinct because we'd have killed them already!"
> Although phylogenetically closer to felines and viverrids, hyenas are behaviourally and morphologically similar to canids in several elements due to convergent evolution: both hyenas and canines are non-arboreal
So for the purpose of this article, which states that because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves, we can consider them on the dog side.
There is a pretty graphic/emotionally-charged image in the article (I understand it's part of nature), for those who might not have the strength to see something like that today.
I think your comment and the reply might leave some people even more curious, so I’ll just reproduce the image’s description so everyone can make a more informed choice.
> 2022 photo by wildlife photographer Shafeeq Mulla (23yo) in South Luangwa National Park, Zambia. The image shows Olimba, an old female leopard, carrying a deceased vervet monkey (with its infant clinging to it) to her lair to feed her cub. The cub reportedly killed the infant monkey while playing. Photo originally posted on Latest Sightings.
The question is why some humans find house cats fascinating and abide them.
I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (and possibly the feline one) are in the causal chain.
Toxoplasmosis is not necessarily the parasite at issue, but it could be; and it serves as proof of an organism that can be transmitted between humans and house cats, and also that is known to cause behavioral changes (albeit in nonhuman mammals).
I've had one or more around most of my life. They're fun to play with and comedic. They genuinely like their people. They're simultaneously willful and cooperative. They have many habits and preferences, and each one is distinct. They're highly communicative if you understand their motives and language.
If you need to control rodents they are extremely effective and earn their keep. There is nothing more endearing than a proud cat eagerly bringing its catch home to share with its pride. Some people are freaked out by this, not realizing that there is no higher praise a cat can express, hunting on your behalf.
So many dimensions. If a cat likes you it actually likes you: there is no lie in them.
You don't have to get that complicated to look for the reason. It's the purring. I am just one data point and you'd need to find others, but I find cats that purr loudly much more appealing than cats whose purring is so quiet that it's hard to hear. I believe if you were to survey other people who keep cats as pets, you'd find most would agree with that.
Gwern gives his opinion (I'm inclined to agree but I really love the idea that it could be the reason!)
"The Toxoplasma literature is dogged by small effect sizes and associated pathologies like p-hacking, extensive confounding (in addition to the obvious reverse causation), poor replication (every study seemingly finding a Toxo correlation in something else), and lack of any clear mechanism for how Toxo could be doing anything in a primate species so evolutionarily distant from its rodent target. So, as entertaining as it would be if cat-lovers were being brainwashed by a mouse parasite futilely attempting to get them eaten by their pet cat, I doubt that any effect exists at all—much less that it is the explanation."
> I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (…) Toxoplasmosis
Yeah yeah, I read that same article fifteen years ago. I don’t buy it.
For one, there are many other symptoms besides behavioural changes, so we’d have way more known cases of infections. For another, those parasites aren’t transmissible over the internet and thus do not explain the whole of human fascination with cats.
It’s a much more plausible explanation that cats are interesting and reliable companions, with distinct personalities and preferences.
xg15|7 months ago
This strikes me as a too simplistic view of neoteny.
You could have a look at Anime or Pixar or cartoon characters and ask the same questions. They also objectively don't look like kids if you make a photo comparison side-by-side (at least in certain styles). Their features are so exaggerated they strictly speaking don't even look human.
Nevertheless, they can cause strong reactions and emotions in viewers in a similar way OP here described for cats.
My guess is that both (cats and anime) hacked our visual network in a sense: They took some visual features that evoke "cuteness" in humans and which likely evolved for the purpose of driving us to protect our kids - and dialled them up to 11 and combined them with not child-like features to evoke a response that's even more intense than the one we have for kids.
So in a sense, they look more like kids than actual kids do.
nosianu|7 months ago
It's not just cats. It's many furry mammals. But it's also most birds, which look completely different. And bees and bumblebees, even more different. To a lesser degree even some beetles and even turtles and frogs.
I would say a love of all of those is quote widespread, given how many of them are the main or major supporting characters of Youtube videos, movies, books and web novels and other publications.
derbOac|7 months ago
ajb|7 months ago
- evolutionarily evolved feelings do not need to be logically consistent with the evolutionary benefit, as a long as they cause the evolutionarily beneficial behavior
An example that I observe is in guinea pigs. These are quintessential prey animals, and benefit from being under cover. If domestic guinea pigs don't have cover for a few hours, and are then given it, they run under the cover. Do they then breathe a sign of relief, and show signs that their emotion is one of renewed safety? No, they jump up and down, and squeak noisily in excitement! Apparently being under cover is cool.
noelwelsh|7 months ago
LoganDark|7 months ago
atemerev|7 months ago
bell-cot|7 months ago
robotguy|7 months ago
Also, have to mention a relevant quote from the beginning of Dungeon Crawler Carl which features an awakened cat as one of it's protagonists:
"I get it cats are assholes, but you know why people like cats despite their assholeness? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T F*$#ING TALK! If cats could talk and they were all like you, they'd be extinct because we'd have killed them already!"
cindyllm|7 months ago
[deleted]
jwilk|7 months ago
Hyenas are not canids; they are feliformia ("cat-like" carnivorans).
skywal_l|7 months ago
> Although phylogenetically closer to felines and viverrids, hyenas are behaviourally and morphologically similar to canids in several elements due to convergent evolution: both hyenas and canines are non-arboreal
So for the purpose of this article, which states that because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves, we can consider them on the dog side.
dabedee|7 months ago
latexr|7 months ago
> 2022 photo by wildlife photographer Shafeeq Mulla (23yo) in South Luangwa National Park, Zambia. The image shows Olimba, an old female leopard, carrying a deceased vervet monkey (with its infant clinging to it) to her lair to feed her cub. The cub reportedly killed the infant monkey while playing. Photo originally posted on Latest Sightings.
junon|7 months ago
unknown|7 months ago
[deleted]
treetalker|7 months ago
I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (and possibly the feline one) are in the causal chain.
Toxoplasmosis is not necessarily the parasite at issue, but it could be; and it serves as proof of an organism that can be transmitted between humans and house cats, and also that is known to cause behavioral changes (albeit in nonhuman mammals).
topspin|7 months ago
I've had one or more around most of my life. They're fun to play with and comedic. They genuinely like their people. They're simultaneously willful and cooperative. They have many habits and preferences, and each one is distinct. They're highly communicative if you understand their motives and language.
If you need to control rodents they are extremely effective and earn their keep. There is nothing more endearing than a proud cat eagerly bringing its catch home to share with its pride. Some people are freaked out by this, not realizing that there is no higher praise a cat can express, hunting on your behalf.
So many dimensions. If a cat likes you it actually likes you: there is no lie in them.
All that said, I'm glad house cats are small. :)
rmunn|7 months ago
thinkingemote|7 months ago
"The Toxoplasma literature is dogged by small effect sizes and associated pathologies like p-hacking, extensive confounding (in addition to the obvious reverse causation), poor replication (every study seemingly finding a Toxo correlation in something else), and lack of any clear mechanism for how Toxo could be doing anything in a primate species so evolutionarily distant from its rodent target. So, as entertaining as it would be if cat-lovers were being brainwashed by a mouse parasite futilely attempting to get them eaten by their pet cat, I doubt that any effect exists at all—much less that it is the explanation."
bryanrasmussen|7 months ago
the admiration of the companions on shore - that is some particularly quick acting distance obliterating parasites
latexr|7 months ago
Yeah yeah, I read that same article fifteen years ago. I don’t buy it.
For one, there are many other symptoms besides behavioural changes, so we’d have way more known cases of infections. For another, those parasites aren’t transmissible over the internet and thus do not explain the whole of human fascination with cats.
It’s a much more plausible explanation that cats are interesting and reliable companions, with distinct personalities and preferences.
ge96|7 months ago