One just has to learn to use actual encrypted chat (better than WhatsApp), encrypted containers, and Monero with no-log VPNs. Let them search all they want.
Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
I don't agree with the bill, but I empathize with the motivation.
Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax.
> expanded scope of powers given to tax officials during search and seizure
For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house.
Yes, it limits freedoms. But, no more than than was the norm in a pre-internet India.
> Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax.
That's not true.
Every year you get emails to file IT returns, and they have all records of all foreign flights I took, forex transactions I made on my card etc. Everything is linked to your PAN and Aaadhaar. To be clear this is fine with me.
> For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house.
Fine. However this is an overreach since tax evasion is not as a big problem as it was a decade ago due to digitization.
Tax to GDP is still low at around 11%, but that's because much of the population isn't required to pay tax(no tax till 12k$ which is too generous, they should instead decrease PIT threshold and reduce consumption taxes).
hmm, this Economist article from earlier this month shows just how bad things are in India:
https://archive.is/bttaV
The last thing india needs is more bureaucracy and regulations and restrictions on personal freedoms (not to mention a free press which they've plummeted since the current PM's party took control).
India is just screwed. It is in this insane democratic autocratic hybrid where you don't get much freedoms but every government has to have a short term focus to win the next election and thus igniting caste/religion/other inflammatory issues.
Social media has caused this mass delusion where Indian problems can not even be discussed openly without being labelled a foreign agent or something worse. If you stop talking about the problems they don't just disappear.
For westerners, one quick thing you need to understand is that in India the written laws and constitution are totally irrelevant for day to day life, so the written law providing 100 freedoms is irrelevant. Anyone who has power can mostly do whatever they want to a large extent (offcourse there are limits basis how powerful they are). Just like in America it is said that the poor think of themselves as temporarily poor and rich someday, in India most people dream of gaining power and that sweet corruption money someday. People spend 5-10 years doing nothing but studying to get one of those sweet government jobs where bribes are universal and easily >5x your income.
Like in India everyone knows where black money is, well except the Government it seems. If the government had any interest in fixing tax avoidance they had many easy ways, but the Government is mostly interested in power.
> For westerners, one quick thing you need to understand is that in India the written laws and constitution are totally irrelevant for day to day life
Very important point. This explains how government use slick officials talking in english to address West in language of laws, norms, civilization, shared democratic values and things like that. All the while govt sanctioned/ supported elements do exactly opposite of what they claim to be doing when talking outside India.
The only thing changed in last 10-15 years is regime getting unusually sensitive to adverse foreign media coverage. Normally they resort to economic bullying of smaller nations to not utter a word which is not glowing praise of Indian regime. But for relations with West bullying may not work or can work against India so they are left with shrill whining on social platforms against western media.
So many sweeping generalizations, broad strokes and racist undertones in your comment. If you’ve led a middle class life in india, you’ll know most people don't dream of gaining power and sweet corruption money. They dream of honest work and pulling themselves out of poverty and being successful. The country has been wildly successful at this and has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty through economic liberalization and reforms, and has taken great strides in eliminating corruption through technology. Read about their mammoth push to get everyone a bank account and direct benefit transfers.
The people you allude to be dreaming of a cushy govt job that allows them to be corrupt is a tiny tiny % of their 1.3B population.
India is not destined to be screwed, but it will be screwed if it continues to do what it does.
You've misidentified the problem though.
Everything in India is against the law. This allows Indian government officials to selectively prosecute and enforce the law. This leads to chaos.
You can talk about how this is due to voter politics, or whatever.
But it's not.
It's due to Indian parenting which broadly follows the same model of everything being wrong.
As someone whose parents migrated from India to America, believe me, I know exactly how this works. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate.
This article in The Economist recently would tend to agree : "Why all Indians are rule-breakers [1]
"IF YOU HAVE ever relaxed with a cold Kingfisher beer at the end of a long, sweaty day in Mumbai, the party capital of India, you have almost certainly broken the law. Specifically, you violated section 40 of the Bombay Prohibition Act of 1949, under which you must hold a permit to drink booze. A first offence is punishable by a fine of 10,000 rupees ($115) and up to six months in prison.
Welcome to India, where everything is against the law."
It is often truly the govt of many people in that sense, in the sense that the reason govt doesn't get rid of corruption is because 30-40% of population benefits from that corruption in some ways.
The article says that it can be done as part of search and seizure operations. And such an operation requires a search warrant. So I'm guessing not. However, the concern is that it may be used to extract information beyond what's relevant to income tax. Honestly, that isn't very farfetched because there have been allegations of planting incriminating evidence using the Pegasus malware. In comparison, a warrant isn't going to be much of a hurdle.
No, India has draconian laws about search and seizure (and one could argue, about a whole lot of other legal issues) when it comes to the Income Tax department. It doesn't require a judicial warrant, merely authorisation from a senior official in the Income Tax department (the list is given in the link posted below by another person.)
In practice, Income Tax "raids" have been used as instruments of oppression by governments of the day against political rivals, media outlets critical of the government, or pretty much any person they didn't like following a "the process is the punishment" philosophy. You have to justify every last thing. It's "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes the to Income Tax department in India.
They already could seize all your electronic equipment - phones, computers, etc. - as part of a raid and go through all your files to check if you were "evading income". These new amendments allow them to get even more draconian by compelling you to provide access to your email and social media accounts, which means you have absolutely zero privacy and evidence could even be planted on your accounts if needed. Of course, that would never happen because there is zero corruption in India. /s
It's pretty much going to move people to self-custodied crypto, whether to stablecoins or privacycoins or otherwise. Couple this with actual encrypted communications apps, well beyond WhatsApp, also encrypted containers. Let them search all they want.
Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
I m sort of glad to see these overreaches happening. It's natural punishment for the carelessness with which people lived and shared their lives in global audience 24/7 for what is ultimately selfish and narcissist reasons. It's an insane society we live in, and nature self-corrects.
hshshshshsh|7 months ago
1024core|7 months ago
FraaJad|7 months ago
OutOfHere|7 months ago
Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
screye|7 months ago
Infamously in the US, the IRS knows all. In India, the IRS runs blind. Here, tax evasion is the norm with only 2.2% of the population paying income tax.
> expanded scope of powers given to tax officials during search and seizure
For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house.
Yes, it limits freedoms. But, no more than than was the norm in a pre-internet India.
shivasaxena|7 months ago
That's not true.
Every year you get emails to file IT returns, and they have all records of all foreign flights I took, forex transactions I made on my card etc. Everything is linked to your PAN and Aaadhaar. To be clear this is fine with me.
> For context, income tax raids are common in India. Officials tear down walls and ceilings to find hidden cash, jewels and other undeclared assets. Forcing their way into your phones is a digital equivalent. From a legal perspective, I don't see why digital spaces are anymore private than one's own house.
Fine. However this is an overreach since tax evasion is not as a big problem as it was a decade ago due to digitization.
Tax to GDP is still low at around 11%, but that's because much of the population isn't required to pay tax(no tax till 12k$ which is too generous, they should instead decrease PIT threshold and reduce consumption taxes).
astar1|7 months ago
The last thing india needs is more bureaucracy and regulations and restrictions on personal freedoms (not to mention a free press which they've plummeted since the current PM's party took control).
crop_rotation|7 months ago
Social media has caused this mass delusion where Indian problems can not even be discussed openly without being labelled a foreign agent or something worse. If you stop talking about the problems they don't just disappear.
For westerners, one quick thing you need to understand is that in India the written laws and constitution are totally irrelevant for day to day life, so the written law providing 100 freedoms is irrelevant. Anyone who has power can mostly do whatever they want to a large extent (offcourse there are limits basis how powerful they are). Just like in America it is said that the poor think of themselves as temporarily poor and rich someday, in India most people dream of gaining power and that sweet corruption money someday. People spend 5-10 years doing nothing but studying to get one of those sweet government jobs where bribes are universal and easily >5x your income.
Like in India everyone knows where black money is, well except the Government it seems. If the government had any interest in fixing tax avoidance they had many easy ways, but the Government is mostly interested in power.
geodel|7 months ago
Very important point. This explains how government use slick officials talking in english to address West in language of laws, norms, civilization, shared democratic values and things like that. All the while govt sanctioned/ supported elements do exactly opposite of what they claim to be doing when talking outside India.
The only thing changed in last 10-15 years is regime getting unusually sensitive to adverse foreign media coverage. Normally they resort to economic bullying of smaller nations to not utter a word which is not glowing praise of Indian regime. But for relations with West bullying may not work or can work against India so they are left with shrill whining on social platforms against western media.
tinuviel|7 months ago
The people you allude to be dreaming of a cushy govt job that allows them to be corrupt is a tiny tiny % of their 1.3B population.
anon291|7 months ago
You've misidentified the problem though.
Everything in India is against the law. This allows Indian government officials to selectively prosecute and enforce the law. This leads to chaos.
You can talk about how this is due to voter politics, or whatever.
But it's not.
It's due to Indian parenting which broadly follows the same model of everything being wrong.
As someone whose parents migrated from India to America, believe me, I know exactly how this works. This cultural trait is so embedded in Indian culture, but it is possible to eliminate.
sherr|7 months ago
"IF YOU HAVE ever relaxed with a cold Kingfisher beer at the end of a long, sweaty day in Mumbai, the party capital of India, you have almost certainly broken the law. Specifically, you violated section 40 of the Bombay Prohibition Act of 1949, under which you must hold a permit to drink booze. A first offence is punishable by a fine of 10,000 rupees ($115) and up to six months in prison. Welcome to India, where everything is against the law."
[1] https://archive.is/ONfHw
triknomeister|7 months ago
never_inline|7 months ago
lenerdenator|7 months ago
goku12|7 months ago
triknomeister|7 months ago
https://cleartax.in/s/income-tax-raid
masfuerte|7 months ago
LordAtlas|7 months ago
In practice, Income Tax "raids" have been used as instruments of oppression by governments of the day against political rivals, media outlets critical of the government, or pretty much any person they didn't like following a "the process is the punishment" philosophy. You have to justify every last thing. It's "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes the to Income Tax department in India.
They already could seize all your electronic equipment - phones, computers, etc. - as part of a raid and go through all your files to check if you were "evading income". These new amendments allow them to get even more draconian by compelling you to provide access to your email and social media accounts, which means you have absolutely zero privacy and evidence could even be planted on your accounts if needed. Of course, that would never happen because there is zero corruption in India. /s
OutOfHere|7 months ago
Disclaimer: I strongly and truly believe that everyone should pay a reasonable percentage of tax on their entire income.
crop_rotation|7 months ago
thunderbong|7 months ago
sreejithr|7 months ago
pnw|7 months ago
vaibhavkalekar|7 months ago
[deleted]
seydor|7 months ago