There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges.
One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
The other claim is that the P320 can fire without being dropped, and while holstered, seemingly on it's own. That's all I really know about it.
I own a P320, and I consider it an unsafe weapon at this point. I have not had the self-recall fix done and I'll never chamber a round in it again, so I guess it's a paperweight now.
Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320).
If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigious military contract in the world that one can hope to get for their pistol.
I wouldn't purchase any new Sigs after seeing how they've doubled-down on denial here. This is a life-taking/life-saving tool. It cannot be wrong; it cannot fail.
There is a lot of accidental discharge happening when people holster their pistol improperly and the trigger snags on something or they inadvertently press the trigger while grabbing it. However, I’ve seen at least one footage of a Sig 320 discharging while properly holstered (Sig tried to claim the retention hood wasn’t properly closed but it clearly was): https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge once during testing—though officially, the results are inconclusive. Now, some law enforcement agencies are quietly replacing the P320 with the Glock 19. Personally, I’m keeping mine because it’s a great gun, and I love that 21-round magazine. However, I sent in my warranty card in case there’s a recall or something similar.
Odds are, you'll never experience the self-discharging issue. Having said that, I don't find a mostly-reliable firearm acceptable from a safety perspective. If I don't pull the trigger, it cannot go bang, ever, for any reason.
Their report outlined here and the police officer’s account of the unintentional discharge occurred without dropping and while securely in the holster without any items intruding in the holster (i say that because it was a prior excuse Sig made for the unintentional discharge reports)
A thousandth of an inch would do it? They couldn't give more margin-of-safety to a critical part like that?
A thousand of an inch isn't such a theoretical number. It's about 25 microns, and I've shimmed one of my back-focusing photography lenses for less than that much (about 10 microns, to be specific). This is something that they ought to be able to machine for, but depending on the context, it might not leave much room for error.
It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.
Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322.
I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.
I am mostly a P365 carrier/shooter now, but for a couple years a P320 Compact was my primary handgun (with an X5 P226 SAO for competition); I put probably 15-20k rounds through the P320 (1k round classes, etc, back when ammo was $150-180/case) (and never got the drop-safe mod done), and no problems. So it's some combination of QC, specific units, and bad luck -- but even a 0.001% risk of something happening is a big deal.
The quick P250 -> P320 without really designing it properly does seem to have been a mistake, though.
This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?
It depends on your job in the USAF. I was a security augmentee[0] and we did not chamber a round. But the Airman who died likely protected missile silos, which are "no-lone zones" and they would be carrying with a round in the chamber.
The P320 is known to have accidental discharges for civilian owners (honestly - don't buy one). But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems. We will need to wait on the results of the investigation to find out.
[0] An extra duty typically assigned to junior enlisted - we only armed up during exercises. Which brings back a story - we were waiting on the trucks to take us to our posts, and the room was full of Airmen armed with M16s and M60 machine guns. And we were all watching Justin Wilson cooking up some delicious Cajun food on the TV.
That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered.
I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s.
I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365.
But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look.
But I am a bit confused as to what is causing these unintentional discharges. I know they had a problem that was addressed years ago so I’m not sure if the current problem guns are ones that were never sent back for modification or if there is some kind of unrelated problem.
Regardless, I’ll still carry a Sig until CZ makes something comparable to a P365. But it’s unlikely that I’ll ever buy a new Sig again.
Tactical encounters often progress quickly enough that there's insufficient time to chamber a cartridge before the weapon may need to be fired.
The context of who is carrying these pistols in this command may also help: they're issued to the Security Forces guarding strategic nuclear weapons (and their delivery systems). It is the highest priority security mission in the military.
It makes no difference if there is a round in the chamber unless there is a fundamental design flaw. The P320 is apparently a rare case of this.
This is extremely mature technology. People have been churning out defect-free designs for many decades. It is surprising that a company with the engineering experience and pedigree of SIG Sauer would design something with this issue. It would be like if Airbus designed a plane where the wing sometimes fell off mid-flight.
Firearms should never discharge unless the trigger has been pulled. It's an absolute bare minimum requirement. But you should always assume it will go off in the direction it's being pointed, even if you haven't pulled the trigger.
In most cases with CCW if you were to actually need to use the weapon you would not have time to chamber a round. Even if you did have time (maybe you should run away?), doing so would draw attention to yourself (and might be fatal). The standard advice is to have one chambered or work to getting yourself comfortable with that over time.
This is table stakes for a carry pistol. The goal is to deliver a pistol that can be safely carried while chambered. You do not want to have to chamber if you need the gun.
This is not military, but it's widely advocated in the concealed carry community that you should carry with one in the chamber. The argument is that with modern pistol designs and the right precautions, it's generally safe; and that many scenarios where you might need to defend yourself need all the possible speed you can get. Having to stroke your firearm to load it can easily add 2 seconds to your draw.
That said, given all the stories I've read, I can't imagine carrying a P320 with one in the chamber.
It’s a personal taste kind of thing, where there’s decent arguments either way.
Proponents of having a loaded chamber value having the firearm immediately ready, because a situation where they actually need to draw on someone/something may not have time or space to use both hands to rack their pistol before someone/something is on them.
Those who want an empty chamber consider the increased safety vs potential malfunctions/accidents to outweigh the risks of being less able to respond to a small subset of threats.
There are policies that vary by branch. The USAF, for example, carries the Beretta M9 pistol (Not sure when they switched to Sig? Must be recent) with the safety off, and in double-action mode. So, round chambered, and a single (hard) trigger pull (Or a manual cock + light pull) will fire the round. Dropping it should not fire it.
I had to carry one in my vest in case of emergencies, and I never felt comfortable being one trigger pull from bang, while it's pointed at my waist for extended periods. Also, the double-action pull sucks, and it's harder to aim straight when putting so much muscle into the pull IMO. Had to have the finger on it in a certain way to get leverage. (The single-action pull after doesn't have this issue)
So, I would accept the weapon from the equipment guys, insert the mag, send the slide forward, put it on fire since that's what you're supposed to do... then put it back on safe.
Since all services have adopted it, idiot proofing should be the main feature of the gun because it will be carried with idiots all the time and casualties accumulate.
I have a 320C that I purchased in 2018 and have shot less than 100 rounds out of. I tried to sell it recently and was offered by two gun stores, less than $200. MSRP was around $500. Very annoyed with Sig over this. Their statements have been no help either, talk about Streisand effect.
That's a normal price drop for most modern plastic guns when trying to sell them to a store. They will offer $200 and sell it for $350 next to the brand new ones at $475.
They are in a peculiar logical pickle: admit the gun is defective and lose all their current lawsuits plus many more that will dogpile on. Plus take a devastating hit to future sales.
Or deny it, saving face and relying on FUD that the discharges (several were caught on video ) were random or somehow the fault of the owners. Sig were even using some anti-anti-gun arguments (the same retorts that 2A people use against no-gun advocates) against their own customers! Saying they weren't being responsible or something along that line. It's a terrible situation for everyone involved.
Interesting... I would have thought that maybe the military variant with the manual safety would be immune to this issue. It seems the manual safety is only a trigger block and not an additional or positive stiker block. It seems this offers no additional safety beyond keeping the trigger guard clear. So much for the military's insistence on a manual safety. Was there really any data showing the units using Glocks had issues related to a lack of manual safety? Sig added one, but clearly it was an afterthought.
Everyone I know has been saying, for years, to not carry Sig 320s or their variants. Those things are dangerous. It's tragic it took the death of someone from what (at this point) was an entirely preventable outcome.
One of my best friends runs a firearms instruction program and literally took a grinder to cut his in half... Mine is still in one piece, but I'm unlikely to ever fire it again. Kind of a shame that Sig Sauer chooses to deny/lie over simply addressing the problem head on. No respect and definitely lost a customer in me.
Yeah, i heard the P320 was originally a non-striker system that they modified to become a striker system to try and save research/development costs from creating a striker system from the ground up, which led to these wildly low tolerances in the FCU and ultimately a poorly designed firearm.
I’ve heard of no issues from the P365 models. A knowledgeable firearm instructor I talked to mentioned the P320 and P365 are entirely different designs internally, and the P365 holds up to Sigs (previously) positive reputation
The Glock, on the other hand, doesn't have a safety lever. Instead, it uses a double trigger pull mechanism to help prevent accidental firing. I've often wondered if a safety lever gives people a false sense of security. With the Glock, you must always assume the gun is ready to fire, which requires careful handling.
I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?
Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off.
I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the safety?
Beyond the tragedy here - the implication of this is that USAF security forces were carrying a widely understood to be mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of nuclear weapons. I am not saying a stray round can cause a criticality but shooting a nuclear weapon or its associated delivery and logistics systems is suboptimal.
The problems with the civilian version (the 320) are well documented (by law enforcement officers and the civilian community) and there appears to be a root cause and solution. (Not an expert but replaced trigger group?)
[+] [-] spl757|7 months ago|reply
One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
The other claim is that the P320 can fire without being dropped, and while holstered, seemingly on it's own. That's all I really know about it.
I own a P320, and I consider it an unsafe weapon at this point. I have not had the self-recall fix done and I'll never chamber a round in it again, so I guess it's a paperweight now.
[+] [-] lenerdenator|7 months ago|reply
If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigious military contract in the world that one can hope to get for their pistol.
I wouldn't purchase any new Sigs after seeing how they've doubled-down on denial here. This is a life-taking/life-saving tool. It cannot be wrong; it cannot fail.
[+] [-] ummonk|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] lokar|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 months ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rhcom2|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] zxcvbn4038|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] GiorgioG|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] spacephysics|7 months ago|reply
https://youtu.be/LfnhTYeVHHE
[+] [-] lambdasquirrel|7 months ago|reply
A thousand of an inch isn't such a theoretical number. It's about 25 microns, and I've shimmed one of my back-focusing photography lenses for less than that much (about 10 microns, to be specific). This is something that they ought to be able to machine for, but depending on the context, it might not leave much room for error.
[+] [-] unknown|7 months ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] halyconWays|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] Khaine|7 months ago|reply
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE
And then a more recent follow up
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY
[+] [-] TheAmazingRace|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] hollywood_court|7 months ago|reply
I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.
[+] [-] djoldman|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] rdl|7 months ago|reply
The quick P250 -> P320 without really designing it properly does seem to have been a mistake, though.
[+] [-] giantg2|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] paradox460|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] jleyank|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] chiph|7 months ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-person_rule
The P320 is known to have accidental discharges for civilian owners (honestly - don't buy one). But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems. We will need to wait on the results of the investigation to find out.
[0] An extra duty typically assigned to junior enlisted - we only armed up during exercises. Which brings back a story - we were waiting on the trucks to take us to our posts, and the room was full of Airmen armed with M16s and M60 machine guns. And we were all watching Justin Wilson cooking up some delicious Cajun food on the TV.
[+] [-] hollywood_court|7 months ago|reply
I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s.
I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365.
But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look.
But I am a bit confused as to what is causing these unintentional discharges. I know they had a problem that was addressed years ago so I’m not sure if the current problem guns are ones that were never sent back for modification or if there is some kind of unrelated problem.
Regardless, I’ll still carry a Sig until CZ makes something comparable to a P365. But it’s unlikely that I’ll ever buy a new Sig again.
[+] [-] aerostable_slug|7 months ago|reply
The context of who is carrying these pistols in this command may also help: they're issued to the Security Forces guarding strategic nuclear weapons (and their delivery systems). It is the highest priority security mission in the military.
[+] [-] jandrewrogers|7 months ago|reply
This is extremely mature technology. People have been churning out defect-free designs for many decades. It is surprising that a company with the engineering experience and pedigree of SIG Sauer would design something with this issue. It would be like if Airbus designed a plane where the wing sometimes fell off mid-flight.
[+] [-] nowandlater|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] homefree|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] nosignono|7 months ago|reply
Most modern pistols have multiple internal safeties to prevent firing without a trigger pull. There's something extremely wrong with the Sig 320.
[+] [-] colingauvin|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] smithkl42|7 months ago|reply
That said, given all the stories I've read, I can't imagine carrying a P320 with one in the chamber.
[+] [-] Modified3019|7 months ago|reply
Proponents of having a loaded chamber value having the firearm immediately ready, because a situation where they actually need to draw on someone/something may not have time or space to use both hands to rack their pistol before someone/something is on them.
Those who want an empty chamber consider the increased safety vs potential malfunctions/accidents to outweigh the risks of being less able to respond to a small subset of threats.
[+] [-] the__alchemist|7 months ago|reply
I had to carry one in my vest in case of emergencies, and I never felt comfortable being one trigger pull from bang, while it's pointed at my waist for extended periods. Also, the double-action pull sucks, and it's harder to aim straight when putting so much muscle into the pull IMO. Had to have the finger on it in a certain way to get leverage. (The single-action pull after doesn't have this issue)
So, I would accept the weapon from the equipment guys, insert the mag, send the slide forward, put it on fire since that's what you're supposed to do... then put it back on safe.
[+] [-] esseph|7 months ago|reply
1. When you need it you won't remember to chamber due to stress
2. stress causes fine motor skill distortion
3. Only draw when you are prepared to fire (or you end up dealing with Brandishing laws)
[+] [-] unknown|7 months ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] calmbonsai|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] nabla9|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] colingauvin|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] giantg2|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] gosub100|7 months ago|reply
Or deny it, saving face and relying on FUD that the discharges (several were caught on video ) were random or somehow the fault of the owners. Sig were even using some anti-anti-gun arguments (the same retorts that 2A people use against no-gun advocates) against their own customers! Saying they weren't being responsible or something along that line. It's a terrible situation for everyone involved.
[+] [-] pensatoio|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] int_19h|7 months ago|reply
https://www.twz.com/land/army-making-no-changes-to-its-sig-p...
[+] [-] giantg2|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] nosignono|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] tracker1|7 months ago|reply
I'll probably switch to a Glock 19 at this point.
[+] [-] mycodendral|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] spacephysics|7 months ago|reply
I’ve heard of no issues from the P365 models. A knowledgeable firearm instructor I talked to mentioned the P320 and P365 are entirely different designs internally, and the P365 holds up to Sigs (previously) positive reputation
[+] [-] mrbonner|7 months ago|reply
I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?
[+] [-] darkteflon|7 months ago|reply
I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the safety?
[+] [-] sklargh|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] more_corn|7 months ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|7 months ago|reply
Sig Sauer guns hanging on soldiers' hips may be firing without trigger pull - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41087518 - July 2024 (37 comments)
Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 - April 2023 (31 comments)