I just want to easily pull bank/card transactions into my budget app, and the glacial pace of open banking really annoys me. The pace in Canada has been just as slow, although we have Interac for direct person to person transfers already so I'm not sure how much the issue of direct payments applies there.
It's really just f**ing ridiculous that some of the earliest and most important digital systems we have are allowed to wall in their data with no API access. Banks suck so goddamn hard and are allowed to operate without any real competition and don't innovate at all. They are the definition of regulatory capture.
At the time I was using ledger for personal accounting. Ledger is amazing and incredibly flexible. Writing the journals with detailed financial data is way too time consuming though.
I tried to write software to pull this data from the banks. Got in touch with the managers at my bank and everything, they even referred me to their devs. I just needed read only access to my own bank account.
I eventually discovered I needed permission from the goddamn central bank to do this.
I also tried to integrate with my government's electronic consumer receipt systems. The idea was I'd scan the receipt with my phone or laptop camera and it'd download the data and automatically generate a detailed ledger journal entry with individual postings and metadata for every product I purchased. This was going to save me so much time it's not even funny.
I discovered I had to create a corporation to even ask the government for API access to my own data.
> allowed to wall in their data with no API access
There's PSD2 in the EU (or Eurozone? Not sure actually). Basically forces banks to open common APIs to encourage interopability and competition. However, it's not aimed at users but rather at companies in fintech building applications.
Some banks (Bunq comes to mind) offer APIs to their customers for direct use, but most don't. The reason is obviously security. People still fall for phishing, people still give fake bank staff their access codes on the phone. Giving normal users a way to have API access to their bank account would be disastrous for many of those users.
Now, it would be nice if things like PSD2 were a little more accessible and transparent. Currently you need permission from an institution like The National Bank to gain access. It's expensive and bureaucratic.
I am thinking if I am in the minorities or such practice isn't common across the world where I have many credit cards and bank accounts. I am willing to pay $5 dollars a month just for such services. A single places where it shows All my current accounts balance, auto pay all credit cards bills on payment date. Showing all my current credit card spendings this month, remaining ( next invoice ) and where they belongs to, mostly dinning.
I would have thought Apple Pay and Mobile Payment would pave the way for better Credit Card services, but right now most of them are glibbest on the statement. I dont remember which restaurant it is nor does it correctly show.
I basically want a central place for all my finance. Including discount on credit cards, savings, interest rate loan etc. And I am willing to pay a small fees for it.
> Banks suck so goddamn hard and are allowed to operate without any real competition and don't innovate at all.
It's not really the banks' fault. They're all stuck leasing expensive information systems from entrenched third-party technology shops. They don't have software development dollars and they are extremely risk averse, to a paranoid degree. Thank the regulatory environment for that (state and federal).
Companies like Moov.io are trying to crack open this space and provide the levels of integration we see in other industries.
No mention of how open banking works outside of the US, where (in the UK) bank transfers are basically instantaneous and free, and I can happily retrieve my payments list to my budgeting app.
> and I can happily retrieve my payments list to my budgeting app
Is this a UK thing? I've been searching for something like Mint/Quicken in the EU and haven't found anything worthwhile because there doesn't seem to be a standard for budgeting apps to connect to banks.
Remember the Synapse/Yotta/Evolve collapse.[1] That is what happens when a fintech startup has authority to manipulate customer bank accounts
but is not financially strong enough to handle problems.
I would argue, the issue is that they had exclusive control over the customers bank accounts. I have no problem with fintech that integrates with existing accounts over the top.
The issue is with fintechs that are not really banks, so they keep your money in a "program bank" where you are not the direct customer. You can't go to the program bank and say Fintech XYZ went belly up and I want my money, because you are not the banks direct customer (even though in some cases your name is legally on the account for FDIC insurance reasons).
Open banking tech is way more about the former than the latter.
To be clear, the Synapse case is not clearly a financial strength issue in the sense that they took risks with customer funds, but rather an extremely serious record keeping/accounting/auditing one. Synapse was supposed to be nothing more than a "dumb pipe" between customers, fintechs, and underlying traditional bank accounts.
The entire banking industry is the most backwards, outdated and barely functioning sector in the whole world. I have no clue how we have not yet collapsed the financial system via some hack or basic data loss.
As someone working in fintech (in Europe): I agree. People always say "well at least it's tested and works!" but fintech is pure bullshittery. We wrap shiny new apps over 30 year old legacy systems written in C++ and bank employees need to constantly correct data manually. I know from a bank that has only one employee that knows about the whole system and nobody knows what happens when they retire (is already aged >50). Generally, banks rely on a very small number of (overworked) people that prevent the whole system from collapsing and they will all retire in a few years. Neo-banks and Neo-broker have their own disadvantages (like bad support, etc.) but at least they are forward-thinking.
Everything is also constantly regulated to death (and not the good kind) and banks wait until the very last day (even when regulations were passed at EU-level 6 years (!!) ago) and you then need to rush implementing it in the last month.
After working there for a few years now it's hard to trust any bank. Better not think too hard about it...
> I have no clue how we have not yet collapsed the financial system via some hack or basic data loss.
Banks are pretty good at not losing data. They're also pretty good at layered security.
I mean there's fraud and theft on all levels, but collapse-level events don't come from "a hack or basic data loss". They come from political incompetence and large scale economic events.
We have many times. We've ruined lives and literally killed people over it, but we just accept this is how money works. We couldn't possibly consider changing The System because The System is perfect, all-knowing and benevolent. Trust in The System!
Also there's a bunch of really annoying and expensive processes for rich people to get their money back after an error, so they don't see any problem.
with all the self-custody crypto cards available right now I completely stopped using bank accounts. Can easily pull the data from the ledger and automate payments as I wish
> In the intervening years, that competition has arrived. The banks do not like it, and would prefer it if it went away.
This is the conclusion of most articles about such topics. The conclusion is that we need less "knuckle-raps". Instead, a crippling sledgehammer blow to both kneecaps followed by a warning that the next will be to the skull (of the company, to be clear) unless the banks entirely capitulate, accept a massive reduction in profits and executive pay, and fully open their entire systems.
HN darling but ... thumbs down. Seemingly no insight. Long read (skipped most). IMHO largely valueless opine and supposition. I think we already know bankers bank, corporations can't innovate, and regulations are abused for protectionism.
I had a funny chat in the 90s with soneone in charge of a bank. The thing was, they wanted me to supply a business plan. I know how to write those but find it mysterious that they want me to write it for all completely unorriginal businesses. If one wants to start a shoe store one should simply investigate the demography and map the varous shoe stores nearby. The bank is in a position to do that cheaply for their entire service area. Innovation would be to put the opportunities in the window display. Their standard plan can have everything they look for. No need to complaint that the guy who hapoens to be good at baking bread forgot something. If the data checks out you can give much larger lones with more interest. If there are many holes in the coverage you sell someone a lone for a franchise. It was a funny chat because everything was impossible, even a bank director should not submit ideas.
HN anathema: crypto and blockchain — can and does trivially solve the issues Patrick writes about. You can easily make sure the account has enough money, without knowing whose account it is. Crypto is “buyer beware”. The traditional fintech system is “seller beware”. But crypto is programmable and in theory you could easily make use of arbitration, resolution of disputes, and periodic payouts etc. All without being forced into the bundle of services you don’t control, that banks saddle you with.
zaptheimpaler|6 months ago
It's really just f**ing ridiculous that some of the earliest and most important digital systems we have are allowed to wall in their data with no API access. Banks suck so goddamn hard and are allowed to operate without any real competition and don't innovate at all. They are the definition of regulatory capture.
matheusmoreira|6 months ago
At the time I was using ledger for personal accounting. Ledger is amazing and incredibly flexible. Writing the journals with detailed financial data is way too time consuming though.
I tried to write software to pull this data from the banks. Got in touch with the managers at my bank and everything, they even referred me to their devs. I just needed read only access to my own bank account.
I eventually discovered I needed permission from the goddamn central bank to do this.
I also tried to integrate with my government's electronic consumer receipt systems. The idea was I'd scan the receipt with my phone or laptop camera and it'd download the data and automatically generate a detailed ledger journal entry with individual postings and metadata for every product I purchased. This was going to save me so much time it's not even funny.
I discovered I had to create a corporation to even ask the government for API access to my own data.
elric|6 months ago
There's PSD2 in the EU (or Eurozone? Not sure actually). Basically forces banks to open common APIs to encourage interopability and competition. However, it's not aimed at users but rather at companies in fintech building applications.
Some banks (Bunq comes to mind) offer APIs to their customers for direct use, but most don't. The reason is obviously security. People still fall for phishing, people still give fake bank staff their access codes on the phone. Giving normal users a way to have API access to their bank account would be disastrous for many of those users.
Now, it would be nice if things like PSD2 were a little more accessible and transparent. Currently you need permission from an institution like The National Bank to gain access. It's expensive and bureaucratic.
ksec|6 months ago
I would have thought Apple Pay and Mobile Payment would pave the way for better Credit Card services, but right now most of them are glibbest on the statement. I dont remember which restaurant it is nor does it correctly show.
I basically want a central place for all my finance. Including discount on credit cards, savings, interest rate loan etc. And I am willing to pay a small fees for it.
politician|6 months ago
It's not really the banks' fault. They're all stuck leasing expensive information systems from entrenched third-party technology shops. They don't have software development dollars and they are extremely risk averse, to a paranoid degree. Thank the regulatory environment for that (state and federal).
Companies like Moov.io are trying to crack open this space and provide the levels of integration we see in other industries.
But it's really hard and slow.
unknown|6 months ago
[deleted]
toenail|6 months ago
Jommi|6 months ago
sieabahlpark|6 months ago
[deleted]
AndrewDucker|6 months ago
rkomorn|6 months ago
Is this a UK thing? I've been searching for something like Mint/Quicken in the EU and haven't found anything worthwhile because there doesn't seem to be a standard for budgeting apps to connect to banks.
marcus_holmes|6 months ago
Animats|6 months ago
[1] https://apnews.com/article/synapse-evolve-bank-fintech-accou...
devman0|6 months ago
The issue is with fintechs that are not really banks, so they keep your money in a "program bank" where you are not the direct customer. You can't go to the program bank and say Fintech XYZ went belly up and I want my money, because you are not the banks direct customer (even though in some cases your name is legally on the account for FDIC insurance reasons).
Open banking tech is way more about the former than the latter.
omcnoe|6 months ago
gethly|6 months ago
sunaookami|6 months ago
Everything is also constantly regulated to death (and not the good kind) and banks wait until the very last day (even when regulations were passed at EU-level 6 years (!!) ago) and you then need to rush implementing it in the last month.
After working there for a few years now it's hard to trust any bank. Better not think too hard about it...
blitzar|6 months ago
Sometimes not moving fast and not breaking things has its advantages.
astrange|6 months ago
elric|6 months ago
Banks are pretty good at not losing data. They're also pretty good at layered security.
I mean there's fraud and theft on all levels, but collapse-level events don't come from "a hack or basic data loss". They come from political incompetence and large scale economic events.
immibis|6 months ago
Also there's a bunch of really annoying and expensive processes for rich people to get their money back after an error, so they don't see any problem.
thrown-0825|6 months ago
mightypirate|6 months ago
Jommi|6 months ago
its crazy and its here today
blessedcavapoo1|6 months ago
[deleted]
BrenBarn|6 months ago
This is the conclusion of most articles about such topics. The conclusion is that we need less "knuckle-raps". Instead, a crippling sledgehammer blow to both kneecaps followed by a warning that the next will be to the skull (of the company, to be clear) unless the banks entirely capitulate, accept a massive reduction in profits and executive pay, and fully open their entire systems.
contingencies|6 months ago
theendisney|6 months ago
EGreg|6 months ago