I think that what contributes to this view is that new construction always seems to be at the high end of the market. This makes sense, it doesn't cost the builder a lot more to build a $500k house than to build a $250k house, and building two $250k houses will take twice the time and close to twice the costs. So builders/developers are going to build what is most profitable, which is the most expensive houses that they think they can sell in the local market.
What is less obvious is that this still increase housing supply. It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
> It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
I keep seeing this, but if the housing being vacated is in a different, less-desirable market, it's a bit tree-falling-in-the-woods for locals.
If a $450,000 house in a Chicago suburb is freed up by its owners moving to a $700,000 condo in Seattle, the people who can't afford a house in Seattle don't see the benefit of the condo building and aren't going to buy the house in Chicago, and the people who can't afford a house in Chicago don't recognize the Seattle development as the cause of the house hitting the market.
New construction is kept expensive mostly through complex rules that often exist to protect the interests of those doing the construction work, those owning existing houses and property, etc. It's a form of artificial scarcity. This scarcity is crucial to justifying real estate prices, propping up mortgages and the banks that provide them, etc.
There's no technical reason why building some shelter that keeps the rain out and the heat/cold where it should be is not something that could not be done cheaply at large scale using affordable materials. People have been building shelter for tens of thousands of years and it's easier than ever with modern materials. It's not rocket science to keep people dry and comfortable.
People routinely buy recreational vehicles that, because they have wheels, are not considered houses. So, suddenly there are much less rules and you can just produce those efficiently in factories. Except getting permission to park those and live in them is really hard to come by in many places. It's OK for recreational use. But not for living permanently. Which of course some people do anyway. But it's highly stigmatized.
Recreational vehicles come out of factories. Houses are built artisanally at great cost. The only functional difference that matters is mobility and wheels. Why should people not be able to get a nice second hand RV for a few thousand dollars and park it in a nice spot and live there?
Answer: it would immediately devalue the notion of owning brick and mortar.
> It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
As I commented elsewhere, that’s the paper math version that doesn’t resemble reality for those of us living in it. Buyers of new luxury stock are increasingly just leveraging prior housing equity to fund the new purchase and renting out old stock at “market rates”, which doesn’t actually increase supply or decrease pricing. Laws have made short-term rentals and long-term landlording immensely profitable for those who got into the game early, especially in major metros that lack regulations on rent control or have preferential property taxation schemes. When actually affordable housing is built (i.e. starter homes), they’re frequently snapped up by PE firms and investors rather than being sold to first-time homebuyers.
The “property cycle” you mention does not exist anymore, and that’s by design. It’s why meaningful legislation and taxation policies are needed to deter landlording of SFH properties and prevent exploitation of renters by implementing rent controls.
Also, they can only address the luxury market so much.
If you're only legally or practically able to build and sell so many cars, then you're gonna focus on Lexuses more than Toyotas. But if you can build and sell as much as you want, that's when you start seriously addressing the mainstream market.
My take on it as a small landlord (have two houses on my farm, one has two rental units) is:
I don’t think a lot about the pricing of my rental units and I’m not quick to raise them but when some new development comes into town and puts up billboards with their eye-popping prices and runs ads in the paper and on web sites and on the radio I think “Gee…. I must be leaving money on the table because I could raise my rates 50% and it would still undercut what they’re advertising a lot”
Of course the money they are spending on advertising indicates that their pricing is aspirational and they may very well next year be telling the city that they can’t afford their property taxes because they can’t fill the units and might be telling their lenders the same in a few years.
In Ithaca we got “luxury housing for seniors” that was nuclear reactor late and they can’t fill
A few market rate projects had an affordable component which has been part of a surge which has taken a bite out of our homeless colony but it is now like that talking heads song where they’re “burning down the house”
>and building two $250k houses will take twice the time and close to twice the costs
Building densely is actually more profitable, there’s already incentive to build as densely as possible for developers. Adding an extra story and creating a duplex, triplex, etc doesn’t cost much more and means you can sell multiple more units. Building as tall as possible and getting more units into the same footprint is almost always more profitable than just building one single family house.
The problem is that zoning limits what type of building is allowed to be built on a site. Who controls zoning? Existing homeowners that already live in the area, so of course they are going to make sure that new builds are low-density, as it impacts them less (parking, traffic) and keeps their home values high.
Source: I tried to build dense housing myself and was stymied by zoning.
Increasing the supply of the high end market often occurs while simultaneously reducing the supply of the low end market. This happens when landlords renovate their buildings. So it's very possible that adding supply can limit price inflation on the high end, while increasing costs on the low end.
I think we should start using hermit crab analogies. Everyone understands that you need more of the biggest shells to free up shells for the little guys.
There is also the recursive nature of a shortage
1. housing becomes a bit scarce for any reason, even a temporarily transient reason
2. prices go up
3. people point to high prices a reason new housing is bad, enact laws to limit it
4. housing becomes more scarce
5. goto 2
> the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
This effect, in this context, is called "filtering."
so you are suggesting that one house is better than two to alleviate supply? this is exactly why market incentives isn't the cure. we would have more housing if we built more housing. if we built double the housing, then we would be in an even better place.
Maybe, but for people currently living who need housing, all that is academic. It's another case of "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".
Supply and demand requires thinking about equilibria and intersecting curves and is out of the reach of a largely innumerate population. Most Americans don’t even really have a strong grasp on millions versus billions versus trillions.
Americans also think in terms of stories with actors, and supply and demand doesn’t have any obvious actors. “Prices are high because bad people are choosing to keep them high” is an easy narrative for people to understand. There’s an obvious villain, and the success simply requires the hero to defeat the villain. This leads to a funny meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/13l1lmn/present...
This makes sense in a world where the market adjusts rationally and there's an unbroken chain of people from different levels of wealth who can afford to buy houses. Unfortunately in the US right now, that is not reflective of the present scenario due to the immense generational wealth gap and housing bubble.
> What is less obvious is that this still increase housing supply. It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
Two things to think about when making this argument:
* Older housing could have been torn down to build new housing. So before, you had a rooming house with 10 or so low cost tenants, and now you have three town homes with three very rich families moving in. Life just became a lot harder for people in the lower end of the market. Gentrification of entire neighborhoods is an extreme example of this: a blighted neighborhood is great for cheap housing options, but then people start coming in and redeveloping it and...it is no longer blighted, the neighborhood is better, and the cheap housing is gone replaced by much more expensive housing.
* Demand is induced by new supply. We accept this as a fact for highway construction, but it is somewhat also true for housing in a hot market where everyone wants to live. So building a bunch of new housing in Seattle could attract new resident, causing the population to grow, rather than adding supply to deal with fixed demand. Yes, adding housing in Buffalo isn't going to run into that, and yes, overall the situation becomes better for the country (or world if you are inducing demand from other countries), but locally you feel like you are going nowhere with the problem. A more extreme example of this is handing out housing to your unhoused population (you'll almost certainly wind up with more unhoused than when you started even though you've given some housing).
One thing few people take into account is that demand housing is much, much more elastic than people realize - per capita people are consuming far more square footage than they used to. Houses that were built to be house multiple generations under one roof now only hold one generation. Usually elderly empty nesters. In our area we also see people buying up lots of older duplexes or triplexes and converting them into single-family homes.
So even areas where population is stable, and housing supply increases, it can result in very few tangible gains at the margin.
There was a brief time 15 or so years ago where the $200-500k homes in the six or so blocks I live in were being snapped up by young upper-middle-class families on long 3-4% mortgages.
Those families' kids have now grown up, and the houses have appreciated, sometimes as much as 2-3x, due to a nearby light rail development connecting the neighborhood to the city at large on cheap transit. So those families are cashing out their housing by selling primarily to out-of-market elderly wealthy downsizers, typically from California, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, and Texas.
The result is a neighborhood of 3- and 4-bedroom homes that once housed families of 4 or more people now mostly inhabitated by 2 or fewer people (many left vacant more than half the year as these wealthy retirees frequently travel). They also refit these former starter or second homes to accommodate these elderly inhabitants' reduced mobility and/or increase the home's luxury.
When these residents die in 10 or so years, even if the market corrects prices downward, these homes will now be even less suitable for anything but wealthy elderly inhabitants. The intelligent thing for the city to do would be to tear them down and replace them with accessible and affordable density; the reality is that the wealthy elderly who haven't died yet will spend the rest of their lives blocking such efforts out of spite.
> per capita people are consuming far more square footage than they used to
^ This...
> demand housing is much, much more elastic than people realize
^ ...does not imply this.
If the only housing that is available is 3000sq.ft. for a family of 3, that family doesn't have the option to split it up and only buy 1500sq.ft. of it. They need to be able to afford the whole thing.
(Also, I question the extent to which this premise is true, at least in cities. Everything else I've been seeing is that people are living in much less space than they used to, due to the rising prices. Taking a studio apartment rather than a 1-bedroom, living with roommates, etc. But even if the premise is true, it doesn't imply your conclusion.)
Curious for a source on the sq footage per capita if you wouldn’t mind sharing. That’s very interesting.
Could that also be explained perhaps by the fact that people are willing to live farther away from cities (where land / homes are cheaper and larger) because they only have to work 3 days a week from the office? Or because commuting is less painful with newer cars?
Colloquially you can see this in sentiments such as:
"All these developers are building is just expensive new luxury apartments"
And as the study mentions:
> To the extent that ordinary people form loose mental associations between “housing development” and “housing affordability,” they may well associate more development with higher prices rather than greater affordability. New housing, being new, tends to be more expensive than existing, depreciated housing.
It is just a perception bias thing. You don't really "see" everything around you aging because it happens slowly.
Yup, and the kneejerk response from economists is that the housing cycle suggests that new luxury stock would be inhabited by buyers who own existing stock, and what they sell would be more affordable to those buyers, and what those buyers sell would become more affordable to the next rung down, etc.
Except that’s not the reality. The reality is that a large chunk of the market (as much as 25% in some areas) is speculative in the form of PE-owned inventory and rentals. It’s not used as shelter, it’s used as a vehicle of growing capital. When that’s pointed out, suddenly economists blame the very same people who can’t get onto the “property ladder” for failing to “compete in the free market”.
In a vacuum, their original idea makes sense. In reality, it’s heavily exploited for the gains of those already on the ladder at the ongoing expense of those they actively prohibit from joining them. It’s societal exploitation leveraging the singular most basic human need after food and clean water: shelter.
I see those going up all over the US West. I know people who live in a few. Always feels like they live in a mid-range hotel. IDK why anyone would want that.
Nowhere in the US does it at the scale to make a serious long-term dent in prices.
Nobody with enough money and exposure to large amounts of real-estate wants to kill the golden goose. Look at the post-Covid-migration build stories. Rents start to soften and development dramatically slows.
You would need continued serious government investment to make sure focus continues to be on total units and consumer price instead of investor ROI.
Because even adding four fancy town-houses or condos helps if what used to be there was single-family or duplex. But it doesn't help NEARLY as much as adding 100 units by converting an old shopping center or 30-unit apartment. But there are strong incentives against developers doing "too much" of the latter if they know they can make the same ROI by selling fewer, nicer units.
Individual residential property owners take a lot of blame here but they're not even benefiting THAT much - every crazy price increase is putting any upgrade to their own situation further out of reach. And fighting low-density residential NIMBY-ism is a slow process if you still only can buy one lot as a time as it becomes available. So focus on underutilized commercial and industrial near major hubs or transit corridors where most of what you're displacing is ugly parking lots and empty storefronts that contribute to crime as well.
This seems to be claiming something different, though? You are pointing at that development slows as prices go down. Which seems somewhat expected?
That is, adding supply lowers prices. And lowering price reduces potential profit such that fewer people will build. With fewer people building, prices should go up again.
Stated differently, thin margins reduce the number of people offering products in a market. Ironically, the main way to get more building is with bigger builders in that scenario.
Is it that they truly don’t believe it or they don’t want more supply (since that changes their quality of life, neighborhoods, traffic, etc) but still do want lower prices in other ways (like by price caps or other things).
One legitimate reason to not think supply reduces prices is because of big financial companies buying up lots of houses and having effectively free rein to price how they want. It removes the competitive piece. In many areas the new houses are built by a few large home builders doing a few large developments, and the new apartments are owned by a few large corporate owners. That can slow down prices reaching their market value.
This is another huge myth in the US housing market, that big companies own lots of the housing and are jacking the prices up. It's simply not true. Large corporations own a tiny fraction of the market while the vast majority is owned by individuals and small landlords.
> One legitimate reason to not think supply reduces prices is because of big financial companies buying up lots of houses and having effectively free rein to price how they want.
Big corporations don't have unlimited money to do this kind of thing.
And in practice, the expensive areas they do it in, are usually very limited in how much new housing goes up, they're still very much supply constrained markets.
If what you're suggesting was really happening, then what you'd expect to see is an area with a relatively high vacancy rate (due to all the new supply), like 8% or even higher, but stubbornly high prices in spite of that. And I can't think of any examples where that happened. Can you?
> One legitimate reason to not think supply reduces prices is because of big financial companies buying up lots of houses and having effectively free rein to price how they want.
No, its not. If only one big company was allowed to do that in each locality, and they had the ability to buy up all the supply no matter how much new housing was built, that would be a reason; absent monopoly power, they don't have free reign to price how they want, and can price higher the less supply there is, even if you assume all of it is owned by similar big firms and used as rentals.
>In many areas the new houses are built by a few large home builders doing a few large developments, and the new apartments are owned by a few large corporate owners. That can slow down prices reaching their market value.
Because all the same voters (demographically, if not also frequently literally the same individuals) voted for a bunch of red tape that's only passable for the big vertically integrated businesses and even then it's only profitable when they're doing cookie cutter single family on .25ac or 5 over one apartments.
> Is it that they truly don’t believe it or they don’t want more supply
If this comment section is anything to go by, there seem to be plenty of people that firmly believe that increasing housing supply doesn't actually increase housing supply, let alone the bigger leap that increasing housing supply decreases prices.
I think what people want is less migration (both domestic and international) but that's not an option. Since it's the primary thing they want they're doing anything they can to get it including essentially destroying their own neighborhoods.
They’ve been building houses in my area non-stop since 2010 or so. Prices haven’t gone down.
There are other factors than supply. But most of the new supply is large houses. If you don’t want 4+ bedrooms and a 2000+ sq. ft. house the supply hasn’t changed much at all.
Well, you would have to compare it to an imaginary world in which they didn’t build those homes since 2010. Prices may not have gone down, but in the imaginary world, they might have gone up markedly so it has still reduced housing costs compared to if they did not build that much.
OK, that's an interesting point. There's not "the housing market". There are several markets, with some overlap. The market for starter homes is not filled by building 4+ bedrooms, still less the market for studio apartments.
And my impression is that, when we talk about the housing shortage, we're talking about apartments to starter homes, not about 4+ bedrooms. So what we seem to have is a disconnect between what the market needs and what builders are building.
But maybe that's only "seem". I'd bet that a 4+ bedroom house sits on the market a lot longer than a starter house. Maybe starter houses are being built, but not enough to satisfy the market, and so they're going almost immediately?
Single family houses are a premium product and continue to move upmarket. Cheap new construction house has become an oxymoron. Residential construction costs were rising at 5.5% per year before Covid (faster than inflation). If it were legal to build more condos, duplexes, townhomes, and apartments there would be less bidding up of SFHs. More people could live closer in meaning less traffic congestion.
This is not what the study says, it’s more nuanced. People do not believe that liberalising demand will solve the issue more efficiently than other measures.
If arguing about this on Facebook has taught me anything, it is that most people definitely do not believe it. They always make the same argument, which is that new housing stock tends to be high priced homes, so if what we need is low price homes why are we building high priced homes? Anybody who understands economics knows why this argument is wrong, but most people don’t.
Nonetheless, I don’t think this has much to do with the public policy as it stands because the people who make the policy do understand this. So while I think the assertion is correct, people do not believe it, I do not think that is a large factor and why the policies restrict housing.
If you could build houses for free then obviously adding supply would eventually reduce the price.
But I have been looking at the cost to build a home, it costs even more to build than to buy a used one. Who, exactly, is going to be able to afford to buy the new houses while selling their current home at a lower price than it would currently fetch?
Maybe if AI replaces all the software developers they can flood the home construction market in their quest to find new work and push the price of labor down, thus reducing the cost to build a house, but otherwise...
Presumably it's cheaper to build a home when a developer is building a whole bunch at once in a neighborhood, as opposed to a single person or family ordering something custom built.
One problem that’s unaddressed is that there isn’t a house building, pricing and mortgage model for people making 50K or less.
One piece of data I’ve found is that 65% of Americans are homeowners (meaning American families, not rentals or investments), which is also about the percentage of Americans who make $50K or more per year (~68%).
For people with a middle class networth (not income, I mean networth, which is about ~1M-9M when compared with the top of US society), homeownership currently works as a wealth-building mechanism because of scarcity. There’s also the desire to live close to certain areas, but why not make more neighborhoods or areas worth living in?
Regardless, if the goal is to maintain scarcity for wealth building, then I think the scarcity mechanism will remain intact if homeownership is increased to a high rate while balancing the cost of materials and labor, and building houses specially for certain income levels, as mentioned already in other posts.
But no one seems to be doing materials innovation, or construction innovation. I don’t think 3D printing is there quite yet, and might be more expensive. Where’s the push on automating construction? Why not build with a genetically engineered bamboo that’s cheaper and more sustainable than wood? Seems materials innovation will help with both housing and sustainability goals.
In the past, people were able to buy a small piece of land and develop it themselves. Literally build the house themselves. Over a long period time if necessary to spread out the cost. They also built 2-4 family homes so they could bring in some rent or house a family member.
None of this is really allowed anymore and it's very hard to find a piece of land to do it with. Enabling this sort of construction and forcing or incentiving small plots of land might open up options for people on the lower end.
price of land + price of materials + cost of labor + margin + other (marketing, admin, fees, financing, etc.)
When you try to boost the number of homes, you also boost demand for construction labor, materials, and buildable land. Those inputs tend to rise or at least not fall much, so there isn’t a big, easy savings there. That leaves soft "other" costs or developer margin. Other is a relatively small slice, and typical margins aren’t huge push them too low and projects stop penciling, so fewer homes get built.
Even if margins were squeezed, the price drop would usually be too small to bridge the affordability gap for most households.
The bigger issue is that household incomes haven’t kept pace with housing prices over the last few decades.
>Why is housing supply so severely restricted in US cities and suburbs? Urban economists offer two primary hypotheses: homeowner self-interest and political fragmentation. Homeowners, who outnumber and have organizational advantages over renters, are said to lobby against development to protect their property values. The fragmentation hypothesis emphasizes that development's negative externalities are borne locally while most of the benefits accrue regionally or nationally, leading localities to block housing.
These two hypotheses sound like the same thing to me. Homeowners organize to protect themselves from negative externalities that affect their property values (and quality of life).
In the cost to build vs what would be affordable I think people on both sides over generalize.
Liberal land use and other rules would eventually bring down prices to affordable levels for most families. But not all of them. Every country has to have some strategy to provide housing for the bottom of the income range, since they typically won't be able to afford "dignified" housing based purely on the Capex/depreciation/opex value of the housing (they will always be renters).
So you need something like liberal land use to provide for 80%, and then some kind of government intervention for the bottom 20% (numbers will vary based on the location/nation/etc)
No matter, it’s still a demand and supply issue. It just depends on where on the equilibrium point we are. This takes time. And yes, based on pure economics, supply will fill in the most profitable sections first.
People believe what they can see. New development happens in desireable areas and price goes up all around them. Meanwhile (mom and pop) investors buy and own significant chunks of the market. Together they tell a story.
Disincentivize investor ownership, and it will be harder to tell the story of investors buying up all the property, and the rest may fall into place at best, and at worst you get marginally lower prices and less validation of the investor price inflation stories.
Adding supply would only reduce prices if it was added at the average or below.
Even if the number of units increase, the price can actually go up.
The relative market power matters most. A developer with cheap bridge financing and a large portfolio of unsold units has every incentive to hold prices to set expectations, while buyers who are occupiers generally are compelled to buy in a certain time frame and location.
The housing market is different than most markets in many ways.
- Building cost is often marginal compared to land.
- Land value is highly correlated to economic opportunities around it.
- Economic opportunities are following a power law around economic centers (highly non-linear).
- There is a density ceiling, with some variations depending on cultural traditions but still constrained by transportation technologies and psychological factors.
- The location of economic centers is not randomly distributed but constrained by geography, especially access to water transportation routes.
Financial speculation and building restrictions are second orders effects of the inherent housing scarcity, amplifying it, but not a root cause.
I'm sorta convinced we need to strongly discourage homeownership (of homes you live in) if we want to fix our housing issues. It just seems like once ~50% of the electorate are owner occupiers homes are treated like collectibles instead of normal productive assets.
Wow, I'm totally owned. A few weeks ago here I argued that no one blames landlords and developers for this. I was specifically arguing that "the left" doesn't, but I'm actually really surprised to see anyone does.
Developers build new housing when prices go up generally. Therefore when people see new housing they see higher prices in their regional market. So although folks may mix up causality, the observation is quite rationale.
Immigration is a similar debate where supply and demand goes out the window for political reasons.
Here in the UK it's really hard to convince people that it's really hard to address our housing shortage through building alone when we bring in about a million people every year. Even a lot of economists seem to think supply/demand doesn't apply when it comes to wages and house prices if you introduce immigration as a variable.
Unless it's undeniable I find people will just believe whatever suites them personally. Which is fair enough. I guess I'm just surprised at how unconscious this bias is for most people. Or at the very least they seem to truly believe that the housing market is an exception to supply/demand dynamics.
What would happen if real estate investors/developers by law also had to dwell in the most dense type of housing they built?
Hypothesis: Humans by and large are all looking for a bit more breathing room, privacy, and quality of life in their choice of home. (In other words, qualities diametrically opposed to the black hole compression cubicle end game of 'efficient housing for the masses').
Private developers aren’t in the business of lowering property prices. And homeowners don’t want that either.
You need to also consider what is being built. NYC has built a lot of ultra-luxury property that really amounts to money laundering and will never increase the supply to ordinary residents.
The private sector will never solve this problem on their own.
It’s not that I don’t believe adding supply will reduce prices, rather that adding supply alone won’t reduce prices. As the paper gets into, it’s a combination of supply, and homeowner entrenchment, and government policies barring construction or teardowns, of zoning restrictions, but also of Private Equity acquisitions of housing stock and builders, of artificially manipulating supply to keep prices high and promote higher returns for builders or sellers at the expense of buyers.
The problem is that demand for housing is relatively fixed, in that every human needs a shelter, and every human wants a home. That doesn’t change outside of population statistics: in a vacuum, all things being equal, every human would buy a home.
The issue is that the supply side is so heavily gamed by existing players that the entire market is deliberately engineered for maximum extraction of wealth from new buyers to prop up valuations of existing owners and builder/landlord margins.
Relatedly, this is why I’ve stopped fighting each niche front individually and instead focused on the “nuclear option” of mandating affordable housing as a human right. That would open the floodgates to lawsuits against communities, states, and companies that hoard existing stock and bar newer, denser construction. It would add a sorely needed lever of pain to deter hostile housing practices, by threatening things like rent/price controls or forced divestitures unless the supply problem was meaningfully addressed post-haste.
I think another reason people think this is that people often do not notice there is a problem until rents have risen enough that they're noticeable less affordable. And when that happens, a small reduction due to supply increase is not really enough. It's not enough for rents to "go down", they actually need to become affordable.
In places where a third of renters are spending half their income on rent (as some stats have shown for CA), it is implausible to believe that nibbling around the edges of the problem is going to result in enough of a reduction to make a difference. I haven't seen any estimates of how many market-rate units would need to be built to, say, reduce the number of rent-burdened households to 10% or 5%, but presumably it would need to be in the millions. I haven't seen any studies of supply/price issues that contemplate anything like that scale.
Just as important, such studies generally ignore the issue of inequality. It doesn't really matter what rents are; if there is someone who can afford to own multiple vacation homes that sit empty most of the year, rents should be lower.
You hear this shit all the time from politicians and activists. Somehow high density housing is built for corporate greed and won’t lower prices. It’s self contradictory at it’s base level but is driving the narrative. It’s maddening.
Edit: Here I am getting downvoted by people who don’t have the bravery to confront their own contradictions and realize that their own beliefs are being manipulated to ruin their own lives.
Central London monthly rent for a 3-bed house is around £3500, but a 1-bed flat rents for £2100. So split the house into two flats and the landlord makes more money.
Hence relaxing zoning restrictions will push prices up.
None of these models work at such a small scale. The economics are regional. It’s likely that highly desirable locations like central London and manhattan will always be expensive. That’s fine.
"They will just buy them and rent them out" you have described investment. Funding the construction of houses using your capital and then letting them out to people without as much capital is how housing gets created. Just let it work! Let a guy build a house and rent it to someone.
SoftTalker|6 months ago
What is less obvious is that this still increase housing supply. It's not new affordable housing, but the people moving in to the new expensive houses are leaving their old houses, and the people who buy those are leaving their old houses, so eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market.
starkparker|6 months ago
I keep seeing this, but if the housing being vacated is in a different, less-desirable market, it's a bit tree-falling-in-the-woods for locals.
If a $450,000 house in a Chicago suburb is freed up by its owners moving to a $700,000 condo in Seattle, the people who can't afford a house in Seattle don't see the benefit of the condo building and aren't going to buy the house in Chicago, and the people who can't afford a house in Chicago don't recognize the Seattle development as the cause of the house hitting the market.
jillesvangurp|6 months ago
There's no technical reason why building some shelter that keeps the rain out and the heat/cold where it should be is not something that could not be done cheaply at large scale using affordable materials. People have been building shelter for tens of thousands of years and it's easier than ever with modern materials. It's not rocket science to keep people dry and comfortable.
People routinely buy recreational vehicles that, because they have wheels, are not considered houses. So, suddenly there are much less rules and you can just produce those efficiently in factories. Except getting permission to park those and live in them is really hard to come by in many places. It's OK for recreational use. But not for living permanently. Which of course some people do anyway. But it's highly stigmatized.
Recreational vehicles come out of factories. Houses are built artisanally at great cost. The only functional difference that matters is mobility and wheels. Why should people not be able to get a nice second hand RV for a few thousand dollars and park it in a nice spot and live there?
Answer: it would immediately devalue the notion of owning brick and mortar.
stego-tech|6 months ago
As I commented elsewhere, that’s the paper math version that doesn’t resemble reality for those of us living in it. Buyers of new luxury stock are increasingly just leveraging prior housing equity to fund the new purchase and renting out old stock at “market rates”, which doesn’t actually increase supply or decrease pricing. Laws have made short-term rentals and long-term landlording immensely profitable for those who got into the game early, especially in major metros that lack regulations on rent control or have preferential property taxation schemes. When actually affordable housing is built (i.e. starter homes), they’re frequently snapped up by PE firms and investors rather than being sold to first-time homebuyers.
The “property cycle” you mention does not exist anymore, and that’s by design. It’s why meaningful legislation and taxation policies are needed to deter landlording of SFH properties and prevent exploitation of renters by implementing rent controls.
TulliusCicero|6 months ago
If you're only legally or practically able to build and sell so many cars, then you're gonna focus on Lexuses more than Toyotas. But if you can build and sell as much as you want, that's when you start seriously addressing the mainstream market.
PaulHoule|6 months ago
I don’t think a lot about the pricing of my rental units and I’m not quick to raise them but when some new development comes into town and puts up billboards with their eye-popping prices and runs ads in the paper and on web sites and on the radio I think “Gee…. I must be leaving money on the table because I could raise my rates 50% and it would still undercut what they’re advertising a lot”
Of course the money they are spending on advertising indicates that their pricing is aspirational and they may very well next year be telling the city that they can’t afford their property taxes because they can’t fill the units and might be telling their lenders the same in a few years.
In Ithaca we got “luxury housing for seniors” that was nuclear reactor late and they can’t fill
https://ithacavoice.org/2025/03/library-place-to-sell-at-a-l...
(Don’t seniors with money go to Florida?)
A few market rate projects had an affordable component which has been part of a surge which has taken a bite out of our homeless colony but it is now like that talking heads song where they’re “burning down the house”
https://ithacavoice.org/2025/08/inside-asteri/
My understanding is many “luxury” developments are shoddily built and not a good place to live
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/realestate/condo-defects-...
Dig1t|6 months ago
Building densely is actually more profitable, there’s already incentive to build as densely as possible for developers. Adding an extra story and creating a duplex, triplex, etc doesn’t cost much more and means you can sell multiple more units. Building as tall as possible and getting more units into the same footprint is almost always more profitable than just building one single family house.
The problem is that zoning limits what type of building is allowed to be built on a site. Who controls zoning? Existing homeowners that already live in the area, so of course they are going to make sure that new builds are low-density, as it impacts them less (parking, traffic) and keeps their home values high.
Source: I tried to build dense housing myself and was stymied by zoning.
supportengineer|6 months ago
If there was such as thing as a $250k house within a few hours drive, I would buy all of them and just sit on them, maybe rent them out.
DevX101|6 months ago
bilsbie|6 months ago
dkarl|6 months ago
> eventually the price drops happen on the older, smaller homes at the bottom end of the market
I'd be interested in how long "eventually" takes for single-family homes. I think for rental units it happens very quickly.
appreciatorBus|6 months ago
amelius|6 months ago
loeg|6 months ago
This effect, in this context, is called "filtering."
greenie_beans|6 months ago
this logic makes zero sense to me.
BrenBarn|6 months ago
m463|6 months ago
rayiner|6 months ago
Americans also think in terms of stories with actors, and supply and demand doesn’t have any obvious actors. “Prices are high because bad people are choosing to keep them high” is an easy narrative for people to understand. There’s an obvious villain, and the success simply requires the hero to defeat the villain. This leads to a funny meme: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/13l1lmn/present...
entropicdrifter|6 months ago
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF|6 months ago
I do not believe this is accurate, at least not in the last ~10 years or so. The houses are purchased by hedge funds and other smaller investors.
seanmcdirmid|6 months ago
Two things to think about when making this argument:
* Older housing could have been torn down to build new housing. So before, you had a rooming house with 10 or so low cost tenants, and now you have three town homes with three very rich families moving in. Life just became a lot harder for people in the lower end of the market. Gentrification of entire neighborhoods is an extreme example of this: a blighted neighborhood is great for cheap housing options, but then people start coming in and redeveloping it and...it is no longer blighted, the neighborhood is better, and the cheap housing is gone replaced by much more expensive housing.
* Demand is induced by new supply. We accept this as a fact for highway construction, but it is somewhat also true for housing in a hot market where everyone wants to live. So building a bunch of new housing in Seattle could attract new resident, causing the population to grow, rather than adding supply to deal with fixed demand. Yes, adding housing in Buffalo isn't going to run into that, and yes, overall the situation becomes better for the country (or world if you are inducing demand from other countries), but locally you feel like you are going nowhere with the problem. A more extreme example of this is handing out housing to your unhoused population (you'll almost certainly wind up with more unhoused than when you started even though you've given some housing).
legitster|6 months ago
So even areas where population is stable, and housing supply increases, it can result in very few tangible gains at the margin.
starkparker|6 months ago
Those families' kids have now grown up, and the houses have appreciated, sometimes as much as 2-3x, due to a nearby light rail development connecting the neighborhood to the city at large on cheap transit. So those families are cashing out their housing by selling primarily to out-of-market elderly wealthy downsizers, typically from California, Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, and Texas.
The result is a neighborhood of 3- and 4-bedroom homes that once housed families of 4 or more people now mostly inhabitated by 2 or fewer people (many left vacant more than half the year as these wealthy retirees frequently travel). They also refit these former starter or second homes to accommodate these elderly inhabitants' reduced mobility and/or increase the home's luxury.
When these residents die in 10 or so years, even if the market corrects prices downward, these homes will now be even less suitable for anything but wealthy elderly inhabitants. The intelligent thing for the city to do would be to tear them down and replace them with accessible and affordable density; the reality is that the wealthy elderly who haven't died yet will spend the rest of their lives blocking such efforts out of spite.
danaris|6 months ago
^ This...
> demand housing is much, much more elastic than people realize
^ ...does not imply this.
If the only housing that is available is 3000sq.ft. for a family of 3, that family doesn't have the option to split it up and only buy 1500sq.ft. of it. They need to be able to afford the whole thing.
(Also, I question the extent to which this premise is true, at least in cities. Everything else I've been seeing is that people are living in much less space than they used to, due to the rising prices. Taking a studio apartment rather than a 1-bedroom, living with roommates, etc. But even if the premise is true, it doesn't imply your conclusion.)
whall6|6 months ago
Could that also be explained perhaps by the fact that people are willing to live farther away from cities (where land / homes are cheaper and larger) because they only have to work 3 days a week from the office? Or because commuting is less painful with newer cars?
clausecker|6 months ago
kube-system|6 months ago
"All these developers are building is just expensive new luxury apartments"
And as the study mentions:
> To the extent that ordinary people form loose mental associations between “housing development” and “housing affordability,” they may well associate more development with higher prices rather than greater affordability. New housing, being new, tends to be more expensive than existing, depreciated housing.
It is just a perception bias thing. You don't really "see" everything around you aging because it happens slowly.
stego-tech|6 months ago
Except that’s not the reality. The reality is that a large chunk of the market (as much as 25% in some areas) is speculative in the form of PE-owned inventory and rentals. It’s not used as shelter, it’s used as a vehicle of growing capital. When that’s pointed out, suddenly economists blame the very same people who can’t get onto the “property ladder” for failing to “compete in the free market”.
In a vacuum, their original idea makes sense. In reality, it’s heavily exploited for the gains of those already on the ladder at the ongoing expense of those they actively prohibit from joining them. It’s societal exploitation leveraging the singular most basic human need after food and clean water: shelter.
energy123|6 months ago
gorfian_robot|6 months ago
majormajor|6 months ago
Nobody with enough money and exposure to large amounts of real-estate wants to kill the golden goose. Look at the post-Covid-migration build stories. Rents start to soften and development dramatically slows.
Like Austin - https://austinmonitor.com/stories/2024/08/as-construction-sl...
Or Denver - https://www.denverpost.com/2025/07/24/apartments-housing-rea...
You would need continued serious government investment to make sure focus continues to be on total units and consumer price instead of investor ROI.
Because even adding four fancy town-houses or condos helps if what used to be there was single-family or duplex. But it doesn't help NEARLY as much as adding 100 units by converting an old shopping center or 30-unit apartment. But there are strong incentives against developers doing "too much" of the latter if they know they can make the same ROI by selling fewer, nicer units.
Individual residential property owners take a lot of blame here but they're not even benefiting THAT much - every crazy price increase is putting any upgrade to their own situation further out of reach. And fighting low-density residential NIMBY-ism is a slow process if you still only can buy one lot as a time as it becomes available. So focus on underutilized commercial and industrial near major hubs or transit corridors where most of what you're displacing is ugly parking lots and empty storefronts that contribute to crime as well.
taeric|6 months ago
That is, adding supply lowers prices. And lowering price reduces potential profit such that fewer people will build. With fewer people building, prices should go up again.
Stated differently, thin margins reduce the number of people offering products in a market. Ironically, the main way to get more building is with bigger builders in that scenario.
whall6|6 months ago
SilverElfin|6 months ago
One legitimate reason to not think supply reduces prices is because of big financial companies buying up lots of houses and having effectively free rein to price how they want. It removes the competitive piece. In many areas the new houses are built by a few large home builders doing a few large developments, and the new apartments are owned by a few large corporate owners. That can slow down prices reaching their market value.
keeganjw|6 months ago
TulliusCicero|6 months ago
Big corporations don't have unlimited money to do this kind of thing.
And in practice, the expensive areas they do it in, are usually very limited in how much new housing goes up, they're still very much supply constrained markets.
If what you're suggesting was really happening, then what you'd expect to see is an area with a relatively high vacancy rate (due to all the new supply), like 8% or even higher, but stubbornly high prices in spite of that. And I can't think of any examples where that happened. Can you?
segphault|6 months ago
This just isn't true and isn't supported by the data. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/corporations-arent-the-reason-...
dragonwriter|6 months ago
No, its not. If only one big company was allowed to do that in each locality, and they had the ability to buy up all the supply no matter how much new housing was built, that would be a reason; absent monopoly power, they don't have free reign to price how they want, and can price higher the less supply there is, even if you assume all of it is owned by similar big firms and used as rentals.
potato3732842|6 months ago
Because all the same voters (demographically, if not also frequently literally the same individuals) voted for a bunch of red tape that's only passable for the big vertically integrated businesses and even then it's only profitable when they're doing cookie cutter single family on .25ac or 5 over one apartments.
k2enemy|6 months ago
If this comment section is anything to go by, there seem to be plenty of people that firmly believe that increasing housing supply doesn't actually increase housing supply, let alone the bigger leap that increasing housing supply decreases prices.
msgodel|6 months ago
MBCook|6 months ago
They’ve been building houses in my area non-stop since 2010 or so. Prices haven’t gone down.
There are other factors than supply. But most of the new supply is large houses. If you don’t want 4+ bedrooms and a 2000+ sq. ft. house the supply hasn’t changed much at all.
mattmaroon|6 months ago
AnimalMuppet|6 months ago
And my impression is that, when we talk about the housing shortage, we're talking about apartments to starter homes, not about 4+ bedrooms. So what we seem to have is a disconnect between what the market needs and what builders are building.
But maybe that's only "seem". I'd bet that a 4+ bedroom house sits on the market a lot longer than a starter house. Maybe starter houses are being built, but not enough to satisfy the market, and so they're going almost immediately?
kube-system|6 months ago
Real or nominal?
> There are other factors than supply.
It is not uncommon for places with a lot of housing development to also be places with rising housing demand because it is a growing area.
> If you don’t want 4+ bedrooms and a 2000+ sq. ft. house the supply hasn’t changed much at all.
And many of the people buying large new home are moving out of a smaller existing home.
supertrope|6 months ago
khalic|6 months ago
mattmaroon|6 months ago
Nonetheless, I don’t think this has much to do with the public policy as it stands because the people who make the policy do understand this. So while I think the assertion is correct, people do not believe it, I do not think that is a large factor and why the policies restrict housing.
9rx|6 months ago
But I have been looking at the cost to build a home, it costs even more to build than to buy a used one. Who, exactly, is going to be able to afford to buy the new houses while selling their current home at a lower price than it would currently fetch?
Maybe if AI replaces all the software developers they can flood the home construction market in their quest to find new work and push the price of labor down, thus reducing the cost to build a house, but otherwise...
TulliusCicero|6 months ago
tempestn|6 months ago
Lord-Jobo|6 months ago
Normally if you make essentially the same product for 15 years, production costs fall.
unknown|6 months ago
[deleted]
nis0s|6 months ago
One piece of data I’ve found is that 65% of Americans are homeowners (meaning American families, not rentals or investments), which is also about the percentage of Americans who make $50K or more per year (~68%).
For people with a middle class networth (not income, I mean networth, which is about ~1M-9M when compared with the top of US society), homeownership currently works as a wealth-building mechanism because of scarcity. There’s also the desire to live close to certain areas, but why not make more neighborhoods or areas worth living in?
Regardless, if the goal is to maintain scarcity for wealth building, then I think the scarcity mechanism will remain intact if homeownership is increased to a high rate while balancing the cost of materials and labor, and building houses specially for certain income levels, as mentioned already in other posts.
But no one seems to be doing materials innovation, or construction innovation. I don’t think 3D printing is there quite yet, and might be more expensive. Where’s the push on automating construction? Why not build with a genetically engineered bamboo that’s cheaper and more sustainable than wood? Seems materials innovation will help with both housing and sustainability goals.
yupitsme123|6 months ago
None of this is really allowed anymore and it's very hard to find a piece of land to do it with. Enabling this sort of construction and forcing or incentiving small plots of land might open up options for people on the lower end.
watwut|6 months ago
lossolo|6 months ago
price of land + price of materials + cost of labor + margin + other (marketing, admin, fees, financing, etc.)
When you try to boost the number of homes, you also boost demand for construction labor, materials, and buildable land. Those inputs tend to rise or at least not fall much, so there isn’t a big, easy savings there. That leaves soft "other" costs or developer margin. Other is a relatively small slice, and typical margins aren’t huge push them too low and projects stop penciling, so fewer homes get built.
Even if margins were squeezed, the price drop would usually be too small to bridge the affordability gap for most households.
The bigger issue is that household incomes haven’t kept pace with housing prices over the last few decades.
intalentive|6 months ago
These two hypotheses sound like the same thing to me. Homeowners organize to protect themselves from negative externalities that affect their property values (and quality of life).
lokar|6 months ago
Liberal land use and other rules would eventually bring down prices to affordable levels for most families. But not all of them. Every country has to have some strategy to provide housing for the bottom of the income range, since they typically won't be able to afford "dignified" housing based purely on the Capex/depreciation/opex value of the housing (they will always be renters).
So you need something like liberal land use to provide for 80%, and then some kind of government intervention for the bottom 20% (numbers will vary based on the location/nation/etc)
dc1144|6 months ago
cloverich|6 months ago
Disincentivize investor ownership, and it will be harder to tell the story of investors buying up all the property, and the rest may fall into place at best, and at worst you get marginally lower prices and less validation of the investor price inflation stories.
w10-1|6 months ago
Even if the number of units increase, the price can actually go up.
The relative market power matters most. A developer with cheap bridge financing and a large portfolio of unsold units has every incentive to hold prices to set expectations, while buyers who are occupiers generally are compelled to buy in a certain time frame and location.
HPsquared|6 months ago
dazc|6 months ago
stephc_int13|6 months ago
- Building cost is often marginal compared to land.
- Land value is highly correlated to economic opportunities around it.
- Economic opportunities are following a power law around economic centers (highly non-linear).
- There is a density ceiling, with some variations depending on cultural traditions but still constrained by transportation technologies and psychological factors.
- The location of economic centers is not randomly distributed but constrained by geography, especially access to water transportation routes.
Financial speculation and building restrictions are second orders effects of the inherent housing scarcity, amplifying it, but not a root cause.
barchar|6 months ago
nathan_compton|6 months ago
crooked-v|6 months ago
spy888|6 months ago
kypro|6 months ago
Here in the UK it's really hard to convince people that it's really hard to address our housing shortage through building alone when we bring in about a million people every year. Even a lot of economists seem to think supply/demand doesn't apply when it comes to wages and house prices if you introduce immigration as a variable.
Unless it's undeniable I find people will just believe whatever suites them personally. Which is fair enough. I guess I'm just surprised at how unconscious this bias is for most people. Or at the very least they seem to truly believe that the housing market is an exception to supply/demand dynamics.
amanaplanacanal|6 months ago
lif|6 months ago
What would happen if real estate investors/developers by law also had to dwell in the most dense type of housing they built?
Hypothesis: Humans by and large are all looking for a bit more breathing room, privacy, and quality of life in their choice of home. (In other words, qualities diametrically opposed to the black hole compression cubicle end game of 'efficient housing for the masses').
gamechangr|6 months ago
interesting video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH8_4AiIxeo
jmyeet|6 months ago
You need to also consider what is being built. NYC has built a lot of ultra-luxury property that really amounts to money laundering and will never increase the supply to ordinary residents.
The private sector will never solve this problem on their own.
stego-tech|6 months ago
The problem is that demand for housing is relatively fixed, in that every human needs a shelter, and every human wants a home. That doesn’t change outside of population statistics: in a vacuum, all things being equal, every human would buy a home.
The issue is that the supply side is so heavily gamed by existing players that the entire market is deliberately engineered for maximum extraction of wealth from new buyers to prop up valuations of existing owners and builder/landlord margins.
Relatedly, this is why I’ve stopped fighting each niche front individually and instead focused on the “nuclear option” of mandating affordable housing as a human right. That would open the floodgates to lawsuits against communities, states, and companies that hoard existing stock and bar newer, denser construction. It would add a sorely needed lever of pain to deter hostile housing practices, by threatening things like rent/price controls or forced divestitures unless the supply problem was meaningfully addressed post-haste.
BrenBarn|6 months ago
In places where a third of renters are spending half their income on rent (as some stats have shown for CA), it is implausible to believe that nibbling around the edges of the problem is going to result in enough of a reduction to make a difference. I haven't seen any estimates of how many market-rate units would need to be built to, say, reduce the number of rent-burdened households to 10% or 5%, but presumably it would need to be in the millions. I haven't seen any studies of supply/price issues that contemplate anything like that scale.
Just as important, such studies generally ignore the issue of inequality. It doesn't really matter what rents are; if there is someone who can afford to own multiple vacation homes that sit empty most of the year, rents should be lower.
idontwantthis|6 months ago
Edit: Here I am getting downvoted by people who don’t have the bravery to confront their own contradictions and realize that their own beliefs are being manipulated to ruin their own lives.
LargeWu|6 months ago
JohnCClarke|6 months ago
Central London monthly rent for a 3-bed house is around £3500, but a 1-bed flat rents for £2100. So split the house into two flats and the landlord makes more money.
Hence relaxing zoning restrictions will push prices up.
lokar|6 months ago
jonplackett|6 months ago
If you build houses, they’ll just buy them and rent them out for profit.
jeffbee|6 months ago
mensetmanusman|6 months ago