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Almost anything you give sustained attention to will begin to loop on itself

773 points| jger15 | 6 months ago |henrikkarlsson.xyz

223 comments

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[+] causal|6 months ago|reply
This did not go where I thought it was going, and I'm glad. I enjoyed the read. I'm not versed enough in psychiatry to validate the brain-chemistry stuff but my practical experience lines up.

Reminds me of the trick of telling yourself "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on". I pretty much always end up wanting to keep doing that thing.

[+] thewebguyd|6 months ago|reply
> "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on".

I have to use this trick to help manage my ADHD. Of course, just actually starting for 5 minutes is a challenge in itself but while medicated at least I can. Giving myself a time limit as an easy out works wonders, and after 5 minutes I'm probably going to keep going.

[+] mrexroad|6 months ago|reply
“Action comes before motivation.”

I’ve repeated this to my kids to the point it’s a meme in our house. I find it’s a nice short circuit to “I have no motivation”, b/c “Great, do {thing} and you’ll find the motivation!”

[+] superkuh|6 months ago|reply
It was such a delight to see someone finally getting the dopaminergic function right and not confusing dopamergic populations activity with perceptions of pleasure, but instead pointing to the modern understandings: they predict future pleasure. Glutamate (in the shell of the nucleus accumbens) is the real "pleasure" chemical (among all it's various other uses).
[+] abustamam|6 months ago|reply
That's interesting. I really enjoy playing video games, when I have time. There are games that I objectively find fun, like recently, Clair Obscur Expedition 33. But oftentimes I'd play with my full attention, trying to absorb the beauty of the world and the music, and then I take my phone out during a loading screen and now I'm "second-screening" with my news feed or HN. And I'm still enjoying the game itself, but I feel like I'm robbing myself of the experience because I am not giving it my full attention.

I try not to second-screen when watching movies or TV, and I'm pretty good at it. I know it's a very common thing for people to do these days and it honestly kinda bugs me because at least for me, TV and movies are a shared experience, but video games, at least the ones that I play, are almost always solo experiences.

Anyway, I feel like I just diagnosed myself with ADHD in writing this comment.

[+] Doxin|6 months ago|reply
I've been learning to draw lately and I was having some serious "getting started" issues every time. For me the trick was to not go "I will now practice drawing" but to go "I will now hold a pencil and browse through my old drawings". It ends me up holding a pencil and looking at a blank page.

I know it ends up with me drawing anyways every time and yet lying to myself that I'm not intending to draw works wonders.

[+] duttish|6 months ago|reply
This is how I started working out regularly. "I can quit 5 min after warming up".

Five minutes after warming up I've changed, in the gym and a couple of sets in. I quit maybe 1/20 sessions, and it's shrunk more over the years since, but it was an easy way to fool my brain.

I'm guessing this is different because the main threshold is starting to do the thing. Once you've started it's much less mental effort to keep going and just do the full workout.

[+] ants_everywhere|6 months ago|reply
> Reminds me of the trick of telling yourself "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on". I pretty much always end up wanting to keep doing that thing.

Inertia is a good mental model for attention in ADHD. I sometimes tell people that my attention is like a large truck. It can be hard to get it started and up to speed, but once it's up to speed it's hard to stop.

Spending 5 minutes on something is a way of forcing yourself to get started. Once you're up and running it's will be hard to break your attention. For that reason, it's important to choose carefully which things you deliberately spend attention on if you have ADHD.

[+] jpopesculian|6 months ago|reply
Reminds me of The Disappearance of Rituals by Byung-Chul Han. It's difficult to succinctly state the premise of the book, but in a way, I think its about structuring time and attention vertically on top of itself instead of horizontally across moments and subjects
[+] piva00|6 months ago|reply
Off-topic: have you enjoyed "The Disappearance of Rituals"?

I went on a binge of Byung-Chul Han last year, reading "The Crisis of Narration", "In The Swarm", "Psychopolitics", and "The Burnout Society". Really enjoyed all of them, and given how dense it can be I set myself to read them at least twice which I'm just finishing, was on the lookout for what else to read from him and was thinking about "The Disappearance of Rituals" as the next one.

[+] triceratops|6 months ago|reply
I wonder if this explains the popularity of It's a Wonderful Life. The story is well-known at this point. It was a box-office flop when first released, and fell out of copyright because the studio couldn't be bothered to renew it. As a result it played repeatedly on TV around Christmastime every year. The repeated exposure to this film, presumably also associating it with other pleasant holiday memories for audiences, transformed its reputation. To the point that it's now considered one of the best films of all time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Wonderful_Life#Recept...

[+] monktastic1|6 months ago|reply
Huh, I would guess there's a different mechanism at work. In my experience, movies playing on TV during the holidays tend not to get people's deep, persistent, undivided attention.
[+] hinkley|6 months ago|reply
Part of the reason why it was on 24 hours a day for 20 years is that something got fucked up with the copyright and TV channels were using it as free filler.

When I was very young it merely competed with Miracle on 34th Street. And then it was just fucking everywhere. I’m not sure I’m entirely over hating it for never being off the air. Even though it’s been 15-20 years since they stopped playing it every hour of the day.

[+] lo_zamoyski|6 months ago|reply
Sure. What you focus on will consume your mind and grow within it. The bad variety is often called dwelling or rumination.

Some will find the desert father John Cassian[0] interesting in this regard. He uses the analogy of a water mill for the mind. You cannot stop a water mill from turning - the water keeps flowing and keeps turning the grindstone - so all you can do is choose what is poured into the grindstone. If you fill it with high quality wheat, you will have high quality flour. If you fill it with or add to it darnel, you will produce something toxic.

You reap what you sow, and if you sow your mind and your attention with filth, filth will sprout and spread and metastasize. Cultivate the garden of your mind wisely. If the mind drifts, pull it back. Let the good crop choke out any weeds in your mind.

This is why there is an ethics of thought and imagination. It is wrong to intentionally think certain things. Stupid or ugly thoughts might enter our minds unintentionally, but we can pull our minds back to good thoughts. Indulging or pursuing bad thoughts corrupts you from the inside, and they prepare the ground for bad actions down the line.

(N.b., there was a link trending on HN a few years ago about a book of selections from Cassian's "Conferences" [1]. I can't find it at the moment, unfortunately.)

[0] https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3508.htm

[1] https://a.co/d/cbxYLo7

[+] onenite|6 months ago|reply
Reminds me of the first pair of verses of the Dhammapada (words of the Buddha from ~2500 years ago. … allegedly):

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts, suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

.

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts, happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Source: https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/dp01/

[+] metabagel|6 months ago|reply
> Stupid or ugly thoughts might enter our minds unintentionally, but we can pull our minds back to good thoughts.

In my experience, the best approach is to maintain a neutral aspect and just let those negative or unhelpful thoughts go. Wave goodbye and allow your mind to naturally drift to something else.

[+] onenite|6 months ago|reply
“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.”

- often (incorrectly) attributed to Lao Tzu

[+] akprasad|6 months ago|reply
A similar idea from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, ~7th century BCE

> 'And here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will; and as is his will, so is his deed; and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.

[+] ants_everywhere|6 months ago|reply
Lao Tzu didn't say this. It appears to date from the owner of a supermarket chain in the 1970s
[+] _mu|6 months ago|reply
Yes, it's a very ancient idea.

"As we think, so we become."

- Buddha

[+] photon_garden|6 months ago|reply
Yes, exactly!! I use art-making to direct my attention in the same way:

> on the one hand, the kid shouting at the park is the latest fruiting body of an immortal superorganism that's older than dry land.

> on the other, they're sticky and smell a little like pee.

> my work helps me pay close attention like this. how can i experience a moment with the direct, fresh awareness that makes a good haiku?

[1]: https://lucaaurelia.com/about

[+] energy123|6 months ago|reply
That's the default mode network. People that struggle with anxiety and rumination, as per the author's second section, lack the endogenous mechanisms to interrupt the default mode network.
[+] wtbdbrrr|6 months ago|reply
> lack the endogenous mechanisms

It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug.

if you can increase the blood flow through the originally responsible paths, you can recover any buried mechanism.

people with ADHD and stuff who had only slightly lower blood and or oxygen flow in the PFC, improve the negative symptoms of their ADHD as soon as normal levels of blood/oxygen flows through the PFC. this is true for any area in the brain*.

I'm sure there's studies on post-ischemic recovery that confirm all this.

Identifying entire paths through brain areas is no simple task, of course. But comparing "issues" to normal and extreme behaviors usually draws a more or less unambiguous graph.

*better blood flow and better oxygen supply usually mean better performance for any organism (or part of it)

[+] minism|6 months ago|reply
This was a great essay, and as someone who struggles a lot with hyperawareness OCD, I cried reading it.

First on a positive note, the example about attention on sex and arousal feeding back on itself and deepening the experience is well described and easy to relate to. But I think the "deepening an experience through attention" phenomenon applies in so many other domains as well - Sustained attention on a film or video game world, deep uninterrupted creative work for many hours, etc. It's a wonderful positive feedback loop.

It is somewhat similar to how when sitting in silence outside for a long period of time you begin to become aware of more and more subtle details of the experience that weren't immediately accessible. Almost like you're turning up the sensitivity knob on things.

Unfortunately as the author describes, the attention feedback loop can become unpleasant and even torturous when it is directed on negative sensations. For me it has been various things at different stages of my life - muscle tension, breathing, eye floaters in my vision, etc. The same process plays out - Sustained fixation of attention on the sensation increases your sensitivity to it, meaning you notice it more and it bothers you more, meaning you pay more attention to it, and it gets out of control.

The difficulty I experience is that this attention is unwanted and yet I feel my mind focus on it almost automatically. Paradoxically, most of the treatment/recovery advice for this type of OCD is to allow these sensations to be there without rejecting them, which I'm still working on.

But it is helpful to see the positive flip side of the coin too - Our minds are capable of deep focus and deep attention, which can increase sensitivity and let you see increasingly subtle details of experience, making you a better appreciator of art and life, a better creator, a better listener and friend, etc.

[+] papyrus9244|6 months ago|reply
> Paradoxically, most of the treatment/recovery advice for this type of OCD is to allow these sensations to be there without rejecting them

That sounds a lot like meditation.

[+] joquarky|6 months ago|reply
I can relate to the muscle tension. No amount of stretching is sufficient, and ignoring it seems to cause it to grow in intensity.
[+] iamben|6 months ago|reply
If you're near any of the cities they run events in, I highly recommend https://pitchblackplayback.com/

There's something deeply connecting (and often very moving) about listening to a record and having your attention forced on it. So much that I usually start by thinking "I hope they turn it up," and by the end, when it has your sole focus, it's almost deafening.

[+] munificent|6 months ago|reply
When I travel for work, being in meetings all day and in an unusual place can be draining. Many years ago, I developed the habit of when I get back to my hotel room:

* Turn off all the lights

* Lay flat on my back in bed

* Put on headphones

* Listen to a few songs and give them my full attention

It very much helps me unwind after a long day. But it's also astonishing how much more I hear in the music itself when I do this. I remember the first time I listened to Portishead's "Wandering Stars" this way, I could immediately hear the slight push and pull where the organ riff isn't exactly on beat. I'd never noticed that (consciously) before.

[+] waterheater|6 months ago|reply
Some years ago, I snagged a great deal on some Sennheiser HD600s. After also acquiring a Schiit stack (Magni + Modi) and finding high-quality audio sources, I would close my eyes, lay down on the couch, and just listen...actually, I'll call it perceive the music. No other audio experience compares, just like a huge screen which fills your vision is truly the best way to experience a movie.

Virtually all people on the planet perceive the world with their eyes but push the other four physical senses into the background. There's good reason for this reality, of course: of our five physical senses, the eyes are capable of providing the richest information. And yet, most discussion around increasing perceptual abilities are vision-centric. Learning to perceive with your ears, smell, touch, and taste in addition to eyes should also be learned.

[+] soundattention|6 months ago|reply
If this intrigues you, and you are in the Bay Area, I would recommend checking out Audium.

https://www.audium.org/

Similarly, it places you in a room, turns off the lights, and you listen to an audio performance. Though it is more soundscapes interlaced musically than the Pitch Black Playback's focus on albums.

[+] freddier|6 months ago|reply
He seems to have hyperphantasia, judging by every example of mental images he described. It's not a requirement, as the example from the other person on the beach didn't need it to feel that level of self-feeding joy.

But I wonder if aphantastic people have a harder time with this? Or maybe easier with less mental distractions?

[+] anentropic|6 months ago|reply
I have aphantasia, and I can definitely get deep into music

and to be honest, for me, turning great music into a mental movie seems to be almost missing the point, I prefer experiencing it as music

[+] buildbot|6 months ago|reply
I think aphantastic people would be able to but using an inner monologue/internal text? Or even just the feeling and concentration on that feeling?

Tangentially trying to imagine not being able to visualize mental images is really hard.

[+] lisper|6 months ago|reply
> In Spanish, you “lend” attention. In Swedish, you “are” attention.

In Hebrew you "place [your] heart" (lasim lev).

[+] CGMthrowaway|6 months ago|reply
In Japanese (注意を払う), you pay attention, much like in English. However, the verb 払う also means "to sweep away" or "to clear" suggesting a sense of effort or focus in clearing distractions to direct attention

In Korean 신경 쓰다 literally means "to use nerves." The idea of investing mental energy into something

In Finnish, you fasten or attach attention (kiinnittaa huomiota)

[+] ssttoo|6 months ago|reply
Ha, I was just recently thinking about what you do with attention in different languages. In my native Bulgarian (обръщам внимание) you “turn” your attention as in you “direct” it. Same word for when you turn a page. Like you have but a single attention and it’s up to you where you direct it.

In French (correct me if I’m wrong) you “make” attention, « faire attention ». Like there’s unlimited amount of attention and you can always make more.

[+] wvlia5|6 months ago|reply
Reminds me of https://nadia.xyz/jhanas

I can get psychdelic vision at will being sober (OEVs), mainly looking at grass (with other images it's more difficult). It's produced by sustained attention. It doesn't come with any other psychdelic effect, so it doesn't seem too valuable.

[+] palotasb|6 months ago|reply
What does "loop on itself" mean in this context? The article repeats it 5 times but I can't find a thesaurus definition, and it's unclear to me if the author means it as a synonym repeat or *self-amplify or something different.
[+] mock-possum|6 months ago|reply
The quote about the trip to the beach, and his description of his reverie during the musical performance are familiar to me - those are psychedelic experiences.

You could drop acid and take a walk on the beach and see the ocean that way and feel those things and cry about it. You could get stoned and put on your favorite album and slip into a vivid daydream, directed by the music as a soundtrack.

[+] Arch-TK|6 months ago|reply
I don't know about this. Paying attention to how your anxiety feels is a powerful way of noticing that it is just an experience like all other experience and there is a great freedom in realizing that you are not the anxiety, you are merely experiencing anxiety.

I don't think I've ever gotten a panic attack from paying attention to anxiety.

[+] gxonatano|6 months ago|reply
This blog post, and the one it references, on the jhanas[1], belong to this weird genre which is basically in the vein of Buddhist writing, but without more than a passing reference to Buddhism, its scholarly tradition, its terminology, or its taxonomy. Here's Nadia:

> The word jhana comes from Buddhist scriptures, where they were first described. However, as many meditators like to point out, jhanas predate Buddhism. ... I am not a Buddhist, nor would I describe myself as a meditator.

She seems to be taking pains to extract Buddhist techniques from Buddhism, and discuss them independently. Even if these practices predate Buddhism, Buddhism is the system of thought that contextualizes them, and has been developed and enriched over thousands of years, to provide a systematic framework for understanding them. This is especially true of Zen Buddhism—the word "Zen" is even derived from "jhana."

It'd be like if you tried to describe the properties of sulfur dioxide or something, without acknowledging that an entire academic discipline—chemistry—has been doing that for centuries. You don't have to "be a Buddhist" to study Buddhism, any more than you have to be a chemist to study chemistry.

[1]: https://nadia.xyz/jhanas

[+] nomadpenguin|6 months ago|reply
I think Buddhism still (arguably rightly) doesn't sit entirely well with non-religious Westerners. I have studied with a Zen Sangha and transmitted teachers on and off for a bit and have found their explanations helpful. However, it's absolutely undeniably that the Buddhist cannon is full of batshit insane stuff, just like any other religion. You can write them off as skillful means, but in some ways I think it's more honest to say that you practice meditation with Buddhist characteristics than to say that you're a real Buddhist if you don't have the time of day for spirits and dieties.

Again, this isn't saying that Buddhist modernism is bad. I'd argue that having clear eyes about what parts of Buddhist practice you're willing to take and leave is good.

[+] causal|6 months ago|reply
This article discusses attention in a very immediate sense, but I think most of the points also apply to long-term attention.

Our behaviors are determined by habit far more than anything, willpower is seldom enough to result in behavioral patterns over time. Even things like the career we chose become habit; pivoting from technology to horticulture will not happen if you cannot change your daily habits to go from thinking about technology to thinking about horticulture.

[+] hinkley|6 months ago|reply
I feel like software would be a better place if more of us had discovered a sport of some kind early.

Sports understand overtraining. It even means much the same as in AI circles.

The trick isn’t avoiding measurement. The trick is staggering out use if any measurement. Today we are working on speed drills. Tomorrow we work on form. Ans in a couple days we work on endurance. Nobody but software developers are trying to work on their sprinting every goddamned day.

We are the insane ones.

[+] themafia|6 months ago|reply
This comes across as manic. It reminds me very much of the types of themes and prose my diagnosed roommate would create.
[+] create-username|6 months ago|reply
Happiness is the expectation of upcoming good things